Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[Alura]

Originally Posted by PB&J

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion.

Texas had such a law not too many years ago. I don't know if it has changed since. Many states overhauled their sex laws in the seventies and eighties.

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by Chicup

I can punch someone to save a life, or I could punch someone because I just don't like their face. The act is the same but the motivation is not.

OK, good point.

Originally Posted by Chicup

You wish to sleep with that mans wife to satisfy your own lust and enjoy a feeling of dominance over the other male. This isn't a honorable thing to do, regardless of if he would do the same to you, and you are willfully doing said action.

Lust, absolutely yes. I could throw this woman down and eat the panties right off of her, fabric and all. Dominance...hmm, let me think about that one, perhaps you are correct. And ya know, you are definitely correct about the honor part too...I should treat him the way I'd like to be treated. That's what I do with everyone else...deciding any other way would be totally out of character for me.

So, if she decides "yes", then I'll make this work in a way that is fair to him, or I just won't do it. That seems to be the only "right" choice.

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

So, if she decides "yes", then I'll make this work in a way that is fair to him, or I just won't do it. That seems to be the only "right" choice.

A break in the clouds

I was losing faith in your sanity

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by PB&J

What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

I believe that I already made that clear:
it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

OK, agreed!

So, within that, what is your scale for how much you share? Do you share 100% of your feelings about your encounter partner with your spouse, even if you knew it would be hurtful to your spouse? For instance, if you started to feel "in-love" with a swing partner, would you tell your spouse you felt that way, or no? Would you wait and just see if the feeling goes away by itself, or if you can reduce your own emotional attachment? And is there deceit in that, or no? (And I realize you probably have to answer "yes I would tell my spouse" if your spouse participates in this forum as well, so you really don't even need to answer this question here...it's just posed for discussion's sake.)

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

A break in the clouds

I was losing faith in your sanity

Well, ya know, lots of things are very "gray"...sometimes it's difficult to cram them into black and white...especially without talking about it quite a bit. So thanks for all the posts and comments folks.

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Another thought...I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

There's a large difference between lying and not telling the whole truth. For example, your wife went off to bang mr cyber boyfriend for a weekend. Your nine year old daughter will of course want to know why mommy was gone for several days. You can answer with a lie:

"Mommy went to a conference this weekend. She'll be back in a couple of days"

You can answer with out lying, but not telling the whole story:

"Mommy is spending some time with a friend out of town this weekend."

Or you can be bluntly honest:

"Mommy is spending some time with her boyfriend this weekend. Yes, I know about it and I'm happy for her to have sex with someone else"

In answering questions regarding what I was doing when I was swinging, I don't lie. I also don't tell the entire story. My wife and I have agreed to keep our swinging lives separate from our regular day to day lives. Our vanilla friends do not know, and we intend on keeping it that way. Same for the rest of our families. We don't see this as deceitful.

Between the two of us, we're completely honest and open. The difference between not lying and honesty is that with honesty, you get the whole story. The only time we allow lying to each other is when we're trying to set up a surprise of some kind. "Honey? Why'd you take out $200 from an ATM?" "A got a flat tire on the east side, and the repair shop's credit card machine was down"...meanwhile, I'm shunting that $200 off into a Christmas fund That is ok. Whereas, if I was shunting that money off to pay for a hotel room to screw a woman behind my wife's back... The only way I'll screw another woman behind my wife's back is if she happens to be facing away from me while I'm doing it, and my wife is getting it from the other woman's husband.

[CallMeLoki]

OK, fairness question:

Just for the sake of discussion, suppose she said "yes" and decided to tell him WHAT she was going to do but not WITH WHOM. But, she tells him he can go have a weekend fling too, and she doesn't want him to tell her who it is. (I could see her perhaps making a choice like this if she decided "yes".)

I'm trying to figure how I'd actually feel about that. And I'm not really sure, to be honest. Do you think that's fair to him, or no? Again, I get to the point of "that's her and his business, not mine." Yeah, I'd have to shake his hand knowing "yeah, I fucked your wife's brains out for a weekend"...but then someone else might very well be shaking her hand knowing "I've fucked your husband". As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

So I guess here's the real question: At what point am I relieved of any moral responsibility for her and his decisions about how open and honest to be with each other? I'm not trying to justify anything here...this seems like a really valid question.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

There's a large difference between lying and not telling the whole truth.

Yes, agreed. BUT...both lying AND not telling the whole truth are "deceit" in my mind. True or no? I always tell my wife the truth and the whole truth, to be best of my own self-cognitive ability. Really, maybe we're just splitting hairs over the definitions of the words at this point?

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

You guys made another good observation...I did my best to insure that my wife would be safe for her deal. How would I insure that this woman will be safe where her hubby is concerned during and/or after our potential encounter? Ya know, that is a damned good question. Thank you for asking that. A straight 48 hours of carnal adventure unquestionably would NOT be worth any harm coming to this person! This is something else I need to think about.

Harm coming to this woman is just one possible permutation of this Loki. Her husband could come after you or your wife as well. Fucking another man's wife behind his back is one sure fire way to set off the nuclear anger bomb for those with strong anger/jealousy streaks.

Plus, they have kids. So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...and not think of the impact to those kids?

I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. I wouldn't care if she were the last woman on the planet. It's not worth it. Finding playmates is far, far too easy to warrant all the potential bad that can come from this.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Yes, agreed. BUT...both lying AND not telling the whole truth are "deceit" in my mind. True or no? I always tell my wife the truth and the whole truth, to be best of my own self-cognitive ability. Really, maybe we're just splitting hairs over the definitions of the words at this point?

Loki

Deceit is lying. If you think not telling the whole truth is deceit, then nary a day goes by that you aren't deceitful. "Hey Loki! How was your weekend? What did you do?"

Now, if you don't tell this person everything you did in detail, you're being deceitful according to your definition.

Truth and honesty are NOT the same. They are related, but they are not the same. I'm always honest with my wife (except when working on surprises). I'm virtually always truthful with other people (it's extremely rare that I find any cause to lie, much less enough cause to actually warrant lying). If I thought I was being deceitful with everyone by not telling them the entire answer to their question, in detail, I'd never get over the guilt in my life.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Harm coming to this woman is just one possible permutation of this Loki. Her husband could come after you or your wife as well. Fucking another man's wife behind his back is one sure fire way to set off the nuclear anger bomb for those with strong anger/jealousy streaks.

Plus, they have kids. So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...and not think of the impact to those kids?

I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. I wouldn't care if she were the last woman on the planet. It's not worth it. Finding playmates is far, far too easy to warrant all the potential bad that can come from this.

Actually, he's not a jealous/angry type, he's quite un-emotional in fact...he's just totally selfish. And yes, I have thought about possible impact to their kids...my wife and I have talked about this, but thanks for mentioning it.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Now, if you don't tell this person everything you did in detail, you're being deceitful according to your definition.

Ah...so you're saying there IS a value judgement in determining whether NOT sharing every single detail is deceit or not then, right? You have to know what details are important to the person you are sharing the info with, and what details are irrelevant. So, how do you make this value judgement? What if you guess wrong? Do we make this decision ourselves (in which case it's going to be different for everyone) OR is there some absolute source of moral guidance that clearly tells us what that value judgement should be? (And if so, what is it?)

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...

Just to be clear...I'm not screwing up their marriage...he is. Would this choice have an impact? Definitely yes. Is their marriage on the rocks because of me? Absolutely not...choices he's been making for years, and continues to make. However, does that make it OK for me to sleep with his wife behind his back? No, it doesn't. If they work out an arrangement between them that allows me to spend a weekend with his wife, then yes it is OK.

Again, my question seems to become: At what point does my moral responsibility end for their decisions on honesty with each other? Would I not be making myself responsible for something that I have absolutely no control over? If they agree that she can go away and he will not know who she went away with, do I have any moral responsibility there to tell him it's me? I think the answer is "no", if that's what they've agreed to. But, I'm open to your thoughts.

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Just to be clear...I'm not screwing up their marriage...he is.

If you have sex with his wife behind his back, then you potentially have a very large role in screwing up their marriage. Just because he's a twit and selfish doesn't exonerate you of your behavior. You can choose to take responsibility for that behavior or no, that's your choice and I'm not going to judge you for choosing not to take responsibility. But, not taking responsibility for it does not exonerate you.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Again, my question seems to become: At what point does my moral responsibility end for their decisions on honesty with each other? If they agree that she can go away with me, but he will not know who she went away with, do I have any moral responsibility there to tell him it's me (even against her wishes)? I think the answer is "no". But, I'm open to your thoughts.

I don't enter into that equation. I'm with fun4Ds. If I can't shake a man's hand and look him straight in the eye knowing he knows I played with his wife, there's something wrong.

For my part, I wouldn't just take a wife's word that her husband knows on the first play date (or if we were doing an MFM a husband's word). Either both spouses chime into us that it's perfectly fine to play with one or the other (or both) spouses, it's a no go.

And no, it doesn't matter if I trust the woman implicitly. I have a very close woman friend whom I dated for a few years and was engaged to for a few months back in the 80s. She and I are on the phone frequently. My wife knows, has always known, and fully approves. I absolutely, completely and implicitly trust her. I've no intention of having sex with this woman again. However, if it were to become a possibility I'd absolutely insist on talking to her current boyfriend before it went anywhere. It would not be enough for me to hear from her, "Yes, John's fine with it".

But that's me. What you do is up to you. I'm not going to judge you based on how I'd do things. That's wrong. I can say, with quite a bit of certainty, that what you are attempting to do is very dangerous to many people for a large number of reasons. Given that there's so many other opportunities for you to get what you want, I just don't see the value in taking such a massive risk.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

For my part, I wouldn't just take a wife's word that her husband knows on the first play date (or if we were doing an MFM a husband's word). Either both spouses chime into us that it's perfectly fine to play with one or the other (or both) spouses, it's a no go.

But again here I have to ask: even if you've talked to the other spouse, how can you truly ever know with absolute certainty that it's OK with them? For instance, if the wife were saying "yes my hubby can play" how can you possibly know that the hubby hasn't coerced her into saying "yes"? (I'd think this is much more likely than the opposite, right? ) How can you truly know for sure? I'm not sure that you can...you just have to go on your best information, I suppose, right? (This is a sincere question, btw.)

Loki