Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by PB&J

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion. Of course, if a woman killed her cheatin' man, it was murder, pure and simple.

Of course. Historically, women have been treated as men's property. I quite detest double-standards.

Originally Posted by PB&J

Well, at least now that Swingtown's off the air, we have something to talk about.

What? Already? WTF? Maybe we'll get out the video camera when Sif's cyber-BF comes down for this concert next month. (Just kidding...)

Loki

[fun4Ds]

I don't know about all this Loki.

One of the rules we have playing with anyone is, we steer clear of bad relationships. You have now jumped in the middle of that for sure. I cant see anything for the good here.

You have already taken this to a revenge fuck. You don't like her husband. You judged him worthy of being cheated on. If I wanted to, I could find many of women in bad relationships. You only need one I guess. Its kind of sad........

I can tell you there have been plenty of men (married and single) hit on my wife behind my back. And yes, even some people I thought were friends. To this day I never fucked their wives. Just didn't think I would feel good about it I suppose. We have helped a few women in bad relationships. We loaned money or even helped a few move out from abuse. A few drunken nights they have even offered to have sex. I always turned it down though. Does that give me the right to cast the first stone ? No, not at all Loki.

It does give me the right to feel good about myself. I go to bed at night without these things as regrets. I wake in the morning knowing I can without a doubt possess something that feels good. Casting the stone at you wouldn't do any good. I truly wish you could see something that maybe your missing. Isn't there a part of you that knows you will always be able to look at this other man and say. " I could have fucked your wife like you tried to do mine, behind your back, and didn't " Its not about casting stones Loki, its about shaking someones hand. Your actually the one casting the stone.... at him. I've never in my life had sex with another mans wife who's hand I couldn't shake, in a true and trusting friendship. There are men, who's hand I could never shake. I don't have sex with their wives. Its for the good.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

I don't know about all this Loki.

One of the rules we have playing with anyone is, we steer clear of bad relationships. You have now jumped in the middle of that for sure. I cant see anything for the good here.

You have already taken this to a revenge fuck. You don't like her husband. You judged him worthy of being cheated on. If I wanted to, I could find many of women in bad relationships. You only need one I guess. Its kind of sad........

I can tell you there have been plenty of men (married and single) hit on my wife behind my back. And yes, even some people I thought were friends. To this day I never fucked their wives. Just didn't think I would feel good about it I suppose. We have helped a few women in bad relationships. We loaned money or even helped a few move out from abuse. A few drunken nights they have even offered to have sex. I always turned it down though. Does that give me the right to cast the first stone ? No, not at all Loki.

It does give me the right to feel good about myself. I go to bed at night without these things as regrets. I wake in the morning knowing I can without a doubt possess something that feels good. Casting the stone at you wouldn't do any good. I truly wish you could see something that maybe your missing. Isn't there a part of you that knows you will always be able to look at this other man and say. " I could have fucked your wife like you tried to do mine, behind your back, and didn't " Its not about casting stones Loki, its about shaking someones hand. Your actually the one casting the stone.... at him. I've never in my life had sex with another mans wife who's hand I couldn't shake, in a true and trusting friendship. There are men, who's hand I could never shake. I don't have sex with their wives. Its for the good.

You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about here. I'm definitely the better man (ie. better human being) between the two of us, which is probably why I've gotten what I think is a "maybe" while he got a hard "no". (But then really, if I do this how can I judge him for anything?) I really don't think I'd be able to do this with total deceit. If she told him what she was doing but not whom with, I could live with that...the important part really is that he know what she's doing...it doesn't matter so much who she's doing it with. IMHO, anyway. If she told him what she's doing and that it would be with me, I'd be fine with that EXCEPT I know he'll hound my wife a few times to sleep with him in return (and she doesn't have any desire to), so that makes it a little awkward for my wife, which I'd really rather not do. I don't care if he knows it's me, I can deal with him...I just don't want my wife to have to beat him off her because of it.

Oh, I should clarify one thing: he and I have jokingly given each other permission to sleep with each other's wife before. We've made plenty of jokes about swapping partners for the night, etc. He asked me once about a year ago if he could have sex with my wife...I jokingly said something along the lines of "You have my permission, but I'm not the one you have to convince! Do I get the same privilege?" He said "sure" if I recall. He didn't tell me that he actually did ask my wife though, she did. I'm not upset about any of that. I just don't feel any guilt for asking his wife. So, that part is not a vengeful act, it's an execution of fairness IMO. Anyway I slice it, asking doesn't seem wrong. (Now who knows...even if she says "yes", I might think it over and decide it's really not something we should do anyway. It's still a little bit more fantasy right now since the first response was sort of a "maybe" in my interpretation...if or when it moves a bit more into the realm of reality, that will force me to seriously think it over in reality terms, I think.)

Another thought...I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

I think it comes down to intent. Most people will lie to protect themselves and that's fine. A betrayal, in my mind, is a different thing. Like anything else, there are orders of magnitude when it comes do deceit. To me, if someone "deserves it", then they need to be confronted and things need to be out in the open. As Mr Fun said quite well, you can sleep well knowing that you didnt betray a trust (even if the other person didnt really deserve any loyalty)

It seems to me like you and Sif are pretty close with this couple over all. Its just a weird dynamic that the four of you have.

Why don't all three of you do an intervention or something with him? I mean wouldnt it be a nicer situation if he came around and realized he was being an asshole? Wasnt there EVER a time when he was a decent guy? It seems there must have been since your friend married him and, presumably, you all had fun together at some point.

If he wasnt always like this, something must have driven the change in his behavior. I would think it would be better all around if you all got to the bottom of what it is and helped him fix it.

If he's ALWAYS been an asshole, then its back to why is this seemingly great girl allowing the years to waste away while she exists in a shitty limbo of a relationship?

And given that, as far as anyone involved knows, you're all vanilla friends... how has it been acceptable for him to be trying to fuck Sif?

Im just thinking of my situation. Mrs. Mix and I were/are open, but our vanilla friends have NO clue. So if one of them were openly trying to fuck her, that would be a BIG issue to me. Ironic and hypocritical, yeah, but its a respect thing and it WOULD be a problem that would cause a confrontation.

Im just struggling with understanding the dynamic the 4 of you have...

[PB&J]

I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

You're comparing apples and oranges.There's a bit of a difference between not telling a co-worker what (or who) you were doing, and a woman not telling her husband whom she's having sex with. In the swinger world, anyway. Most people, I think, would agree that it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

[CallMeLoki]

Actually, yes...this fellow used to be someone I looked up to. He had so many good qualities about him. The four of us used to be quite close. As we've all gotten older, had kids, etc., all of us have gotten much less selfish (don't you have to with kids?), while he has gotten more selfish. He has lost quite a few friends over the years because of his selfishness. Folks just don't want to hang out with him because there's always something he's after or some agenda. I still try to like him, but sometimes it's really hard.

Why does she stay? Well, he isn't abusive to her (I and probably a few others would go kick his ass in a hurry). He provides financially for his family, and he's not an alcoholic or drug addict. I think she's probably really staying only because she wants to keep a "family" intact for their kids. He works part of the time in a foreign country, and tried to pressure her to move there, she refused...I'm sure if they seperated or divorced, he'd just move and his kids would probably see him once or twice a year. He probably wouldn't even care, but the kids would care and his wife would care, so I'm sure that's part of her decision. She's unhappy, but I think she knows that it could be much worse so she's willing to just live with it and try to make it work between periods of just being numb and exhausted by it. I know they've discussed trying to work out their issues, just living with it the way it is, living as "room-mates", and seperating/divorcing. Ya know, I dunno. He's happy as a lark with the exception of not getting enough sex. She's certainly not perfect, she makes mistakes and bad choices like any of us...but everyone can easily see that her heart is in the right place. It's easy to see his is not.

Yeah, the dynamics are quite complicated. For all of us. Isn't that always the case with human beings? Nothing is ever truly black and white.

Loki

[BiloxiCouple]

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

[fun4Ds]

[QUOTE=CallMeLoki;348201]You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about here.

I'm definitely the better man (ie. better human being) between the two of us, which is probably why I've gotten what I think is a "maybe" while he got a hard "no".

Thats what the price is. Will you pay ?

(But then really, if I do this how can I judge him for anything?) I really don't think I'd be able to do this with total deceit. If she told him what she was doing but not whom with, I could live with that...

So then for the rest of your life I guess you will always face him, knowing. I fucked your wife, and you didn't know it was me. You deserved it, we were all in on it. Isn't it the truth ? What justifies it for you guys. How would you feel if this guy Sif was with over the weekend fooled you. Thinking, I fucked your wife loki, next time you wont have the privilege knowing it was me ?

What if ? Really, you didn't know the guy and took a chance. Things worked out for the good so far.

the important part really is that he know what she's doing...it doesn't matter so much who she's doing it with. IMHO, anyway. If she told him what she's doing and that it would be with me, I'd be fine with that EXCEPT I know he'll hound my wife a few times to sleep with him in return (and she doesn't have any desire to), so that makes it a little awkward for my wife, which I'd really rather not do. I don't care if he knows it's me, I can deal with him...I just don't want my wife to have to beat him off her because of it.

So your saying its fair that your going to fuck his wife. But you don't want him pursuing SIF ? I think beside the fact of a really bad outcome,your being deceitfully unfair. Sif had the right to say NO. You have the right and agree that its NO between him and sif. Where is his right to say NO to you and Sif now ? You said your better than him earlier. He hit on Sif already. I'm sure in his mind he justified his intents. Now you justify yours. It doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought more of you.

I detest deceit (who doesn't?)

You don't care if he knows it's you ? Your asking her to do the very things you don't like about him. I just keep thinking, What an evil web we weave, when first we try to deceive.

Look how far and to the extremes you went to to give Sif a safe experience, because you cared. What about the jeopardy you are putting this other female in ? Can you offer her complete safety ? Not from you, but him.

but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits?

That would be us

Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

Valid indeed. All of these people could ask... And we only reply with "we were with our friends". So far the reality and truth is. They never asked us if we fucked them. Well.. one of my sons did. Even so, I was honest. He kind of thought it was cool that the single female we were with is freaking hot. Thats a whole different subject though.

The thing is, I didn't have to explain why I fucked someones wife behind her husbands back.

Thats for you, if you keep justifying this. Were just different I guess. There is nothing wrong with that. I do find it strange that you and Sif went to all the trouble to keep things drama free with her experience. Covering all the bases. Now your going into this the way you are.

Is finding a compatible single female that hard ? I mean you have what it takes. We play with single females that want to be with us. No drama no regrets. It seems your blinded by something here. Is convenience the reason ?

[fun4Ds]

Loki you added some points that make a big difference now. Your talking about full blown Swinging with this couple. There wont be any more were not swinging in a conventional way. Your in now

He asked you to sleep with your wife. As a friend. You said, she said NO !! period. This is a whole new thing now. You need to ask him if its still ok to spend the weekend with his wife. We play with couples each time we ask. There are no exceptions.

Swing or cheat its your call now ! You know the rules !

[CallMeLoki]

Fun4Ds...I think you've asked a really good question...why her, with all the risks that appear to be included? Let me think about that one.

No, it's not convenience.

1) We have a strong connection as friends AND she's a very attractive woman...that's a big part of it. (The strong connection is the same reason Sif chose who she did, I respect that for her, and she respects this for me. No lectures on emotional attachments, please!)

2) I know that's she's somewhat sexually reserved and inhibited...given our long-term friendship, I feel a challenge to get her to let go and really enjoy herself, so that's a big part of the appeal for me I think...I want to just rock her world for a day or two because I'm quite sure I can.

3) She's the only woman I know that I'd actually WANT to spend a whole weekend with (other than my wife). Even if we canceled any plans to tango, we'd still have a blast just hanging out, talking, having drinks, and doing a little partying. It wouldn't be a truly disappointing weekend if not a bit of sex transpired. Originally, we were looking for an FMF and a MFM threesome, and I'd be happy with someone else who was attractive (the strong connection would come from my wife in that case, so I wouldn't *need* a strong connection with the second woman, although it would be nice). However, since my wife and I decided to do "alone time" rather a pair of threesomes, that makes me more selective...and she's the only one I know that fits what I'd want. (Now, I could meet a single woman or divorcee who might be a good fit tommorrow, but we also won't have 15 years of trust and connection with each other.) So, yeah, I'm very selective, but it's because I can be.

4) She's a difficult choice because she's close to both of us, BUT that also makes her a safe choice (not considering the hubby). She loves me as a friend AND she loves my wife as a friend...she wants to keep our friendships in place just as much as we do. That insures no drama from her...she would clearly understand and agree that we're going off to have a weekend of escape from reality, and that we'll act like it never happened when we get back. (Again, no emotional attachment lectures please. I knew this woman and thought she was awesome BEFORE I knew my wife, and I don't want to hear how we'll probably run off together afterwards, etc.)

You guys made another good observation...I did my best to insure that my wife would be safe for her deal. How would I insure that this woman will be safe where her hubby is concerned during and/or after our potential encounter? Ya know, that is a damned good question. Thank you for asking that. A straight 48 hours of carnal adventure unquestionably would NOT be worth any harm coming to this person! This is something else I need to think about.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

Loki you added some points that make a big difference now. Your talking about full blown Swinging with this couple. There wont be any more were not swinging in a conventional way. Your in now

He asked you to sleep with your wife. As a friend. You said, she said NO !! period. This is a whole new thing now. You need to ask him if its still ok to spend the weekend with his wife. We play with couples each time we ask. There are no exceptions.

Swing or cheat its your call now ! You know the rules !

OK, good point here. If she says "yes", then perhaps the most fair course of action is for me to just go ask his permission. I don't see how he could say "no" actually, although it might require a little persuasion from me.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

Feel free to walk away now. Your comments above added nothing of value. Thanks!

I don't mean to be rude, but as has already been observed, this relationship is long and has lots of dynamics, many of which have changed somewhat over the years.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by PB&J

I detest deceit (who doesn't?), but then who here can say they've never deceived anyone about their swinger habits? Who here has never lied to your kids, co-workers, neighbors, folks at church, friends, school-mates' parents, family members, nor anyone else about your lifestyle? Interesting question, huh? Are some lies OK while other's are not? I can see it now...someone at church asks "where were you guys last weekend?". "Well, I was off in a hotel room..." Not being sarcastic here...it seems like a valid question.

You're comparing apples and oranges.There's a bit of a difference between not telling a co-worker what (or who) you were doing, and a woman not telling her husband whom she's having sex with. In the swinger world, anyway. Most people, I think, would agree that it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

I am, but then a fruit (or deception) is a fruit (or deception) isn't it? What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

Definitely agreed on the 2nd point, but it has to go both ways to work in reality.

Loki

[PB&J]

What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

I believe that I already made that clear:
it's not the business of anyone but the spouse- but it is MOST DEFINITELY the business of the spouse.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I am, but then a fruit (or deception) is a fruit (or deception) isn't it? What is your personal scale for determining which lies are OK to tell and which lies are not OK to tell?

Horrible justification.

I can punch someone to save a life, or I could punch someone because I just don't like their face. The act is the same but the motivation is not.

Lying it self is not dishonorable, and there are times where lying is the right thing to do, since the truth would unnecessarily cause distress. To try to lump all lies into one moral equivalent is fundamentalist thinking if you honestly believe it and more likely self deception.

If someone asks if I'm a swinger and I say no, I have lied but lied to someone about a subject they have no business knowing. I could say 'I choose not to answer that' in some form, but that is often viewed an as admission. No one is getting hurt by me being a swinger, and more importantly no one will get all stabby if I were found out.

Your deception is dishonorable. You are committing an act which would directly hurt someone else if discovered, and which would most likely change the course of his life. Not to mention the whole possibility of that stabby thing.

Your actions don't even have the heat of passion as an excuse but a cold calculated and willful deception you justify because he hit on your wife at some point and she declined.

You are not the keeper of his wife's morality, but you are the keeper of your own.

Rather then create an armor of sophistry about you, just face your desire for what it is. You wish to sleep with that mans wife to satisfy your own lust and enjoy a feeling of dominance over the other male. This isn't a honorable thing to do, regardless of if he would do the same to you, and you are willfully doing said action.

If your own moral compass allows you to do so and to feel good about what you did, then do it, but don't take the weak route trying to justify it beyond what it is.