Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[Alura]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

So, question: even if the playmate says "yes I have my spouse's permission", how do you know that's actually true? Even if you talk to the spouse to verify, how do you know that the spouse isn't being coerced into saying "he/she has my permission"? You don't.

Loki

In most cases, Loki, you don't. There are times you can be pretty sure, though.

Once our Mrs. Playmate was in London on business. We were surprised when she called from there to tell us she had just talked to Mr. Playmate, who was really horny. She asked us if we'd call him and arrange a threesome.

"How do you feel about being left out?" we asked her.

"Well," she said, "I'm about 5,000 miles away, but I'd like to get my turn when I get back to Tulsa. How about if we have a threesome while Mr. Playmate watches? We could also wait until he has a speaking engagement out of town and do it then."

Everybody was comfortable with the situation which worked out well.

It's all about talking things out beforehand.

Mr. Alura

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Yup, I know. That's what most people said about Sif's encounter too.

Loki

SiF's encounter didn't involve a potentially ballistic male who is being cheated on. You've already said he's very selfish. I don't want to imagine how a very selfish person is going to act when he finds out his wife is fucking a mutual 'friend'.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Loki, and btw, excellent name choice considering this thread, I do appreciate you keeping up with this thread as it can give a different perspective. I hope you continue to do so, and honestly report, because it is so different than just about any of us would do.

Double, triple, quadruple echo.

Loki, it's your life to live and I'm not judging you for your decisions. I think your decisions are very dangerous, but they are yours to make.

Many of us in the lifestyle would far prefer people on the outside wouldn't judge us based on lack of information. I think we owe you the same respect. I've tried to do that in my posts in response to you, but there's a fine line between advice and judge. If I've crossed it, forgive me.

Keep following up please!

[mixtupcpl]

Loki,

I'm not trying to preach at you bud, but we have some similar background here, so I'll keep giving you food for thought until you tell me to piss off.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

About 13 years ago, this would have probably been a realistic possibility. Once, the four of us ended up in my bed making out with our partners. If there hadn't been other folks there at this particular party, I have a feeling clothes very well may have started coming off. However, nowadays, I don't think too many women are attracted to this fellow...he can't seem to beg a lay from anyone, even his wife. He's a handsome fellow, nothing wrong there...his totally selfish mindset of "what's in this for me?" is the problem...you can talk to him for 30 seconds and see he's only after whatever he can get for himself, with very little regard for anyone else.

So weird shared history, AND he is a narcissist. Not good man.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

So, question: even if the playmate says "yes I have my spouse's permission", how do you know that's actually true? Even if you talk to the spouse to verify, how do you know that the spouse isn't being coerced into saying "he/she has my permission"? You don't. The only perspective that makes sense to me is that it's her responsibility to manage her marriage...that's not my business.

You don't *know* for sure, but in this case YOU *do* know for sure. So the logic here is faulty. If you do the best you can to verify things are straight, and then it turns out you were wrong, well you still had good intent. Here, you are going in knowing the situation is bad, so any hypotheticals are really irrelevant.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I know that she doesn't deal with guilt well, so if she decides "yes"....

(snip)

OR, maybe this can also be accomplished by her just confronting him on her own about this marriage that she is a PARTNER in. I mean why did it take this wake up call for her to confront an unhappy situation? As a friend, had you suggested to her before that she should tackle this miserable relationship? What was stopping her? "Im going to go fuck other people" is RARELY a good first step for "fixing" a bad marriage man.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

However, this is my one selfish choice for this decade, and yeah, it's a doozy ain't it? If you're gonna be bad, you might as well do it right. In the grand scheme of things, I really don't feel that bad about it.Loki

Bad logic again man. When I was younger, this exact kind of thinking came very close to landing me in jail and even closer to putting me in an early grave. As a mature man, I look back on some of the choices I made and some of the people I ran with and think "what the FUCK was I doing?!"

You say you don't feel bad about it, but if it turns out to be devastating for your friend (who already seems fragile, btw), I think you will. If the guy turns psycho (which can happen quicker than you can imagine), then I KNOW you will.

Why not take a different approach. Encourage her to talk to him about what he's doing wrong. Have her give him the wake up call in a HEALTHY way. Then, over some time, have her recall that time you guys were all in bed. Maybe she can fix her marriage, and then bring him around to this lifestyle. If he's a good looking guy and moves beyond his asshole phase, maybe you can ALL end up having fun then, rather than potentially landing on the 6pm news. No?

[rpu3]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Yup, I know. That's what most people said about Sif's encounter too.

Loki

I don't recall Sif's partner being married. Big difference. Perhaps I need to re-read this novel of a thread, but I didn't think he was married.

I am in an open marriage and it is working out nicely for us, but we practice "first do no harm" - to ourselves and our relationship, and to those who may choose to interact with us. Neither of us are interested in deceit in order to practice an open marriage. Deceit, getting involved in cheating, the like, somewhat defeats the purpose of an open marriage, IMO, even if its the outsider's relationship that involves the cheating. Clearly, other's mileage may vary.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

Here you admit to realizing that if this woman, a person you call your friend, was a happily married woman there would be no way she'd even consider playing with you...or doing any swinging!

You are right on one thing, you're a selfish man. And if your woman "friend" ever read this thread I doubt she'd want to be your friend any longer.

You are taking advantage of her in the worst way; she's in a bad marriage and women in bad marriages are targets for guys like you.

LM

Actually, I'm not a selfish man. Anyone in my life would tell you that I'm one of the least selfish and most caring people they know (including my wife and this friend). Let's state it correctly my dear: I'm making a selfish choice for once where her husband is concerned. Making a truly selfish choice is something I very rarely do. I'm allowed to be human, aren't I? If not, then I'd like the first perfect and faultless person on this forum to please cast the first stone. (Do I hear cricket noises? )

It was actually really, really hard for me to decide to ask her. My wife asked me if that's what I wanted, I said "yes", and she encouraged me repeatedly (she had to, or I wouldn't have asked). I stressed over whether asking her would hurt my relationship with my wife, AND I stressed over whether asking would hurt my friendship with the friend (AND if it would hurt my wife's friendship with her as well). My wife convinced me that it would do us no harm (and it really took a while for her to convince me of this). And in thinking about my friendship, I knew asking the woman in question wouldn't hurt our friendship, as long as I only asked once, accepted her answer, and didn't pressure her. So, I said "what the hell" and asked.

And don't make me out to be some sort of predator, because I'm not. I'm not taking advantage of her...I never have and never would. We've slept in the same house alone and "stupid drunk" together at least once (maybe more that I can't remember) not too long ago. If I'd wanted to "take advantage" of her, I've had plenty of opportunities when she or I were both drunk and alone. She trusts me, and I trust her. Getting her drunk and making a move on her would be "taking advantage of her", I wouldn't do that, and she knows I wouldn't. Asking her up-front if she would want to spend a weekend away with me is NOT taking advantage of her, in my not-so-humble opinion.

I've posed the question to her...if she says "yes" or "no", I'll accept either answer and still treat her the same way that I always have. My friendship with her is much more important to me than whether she says yes or no. She knows that. And she knows me well enough to know that I believe "You don't know if you don't ask". She would expect me to be completely upfront with her about even something like this, because she knows that's how I am. She wasn't shocked at all that I asked her either. If she says "yes" and we do follow through with it, it'll be two mature adults having consentual sex. I'm no witch-doctor, and it's not like I'm casting any spells or anything.

You don't know how many times I've actually talked to the hubby in question and suggested things "don't lie to your wife", "why don't you forgo this and do something with your wife", "don't do things behind your wife's back", "why don't you consider your wife in this choice rather than just yourself", etc. His usual answer is "because this is what I want to do". Really...if she says "yes", it's hard for me to not feel like he deserves it. Sorry if that ruffles anyone's feathers, but that's the way I feel. If you don't like it, you're welcome to not like it.

She hasn't read this thread, but she knows most of what's in her part of it...and what she doesn't know I'll tell her as soon as she's ready to talk about it. We talk openly and honestly. I wouldn't try to manipulate anything about her choice, I respect her, and plus that's not exactly the way to keep a lifelong friend.

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

You don't know how many times I've actually talked to the hubby in question and suggested things "don't lie to your wife", "why don't you forgo this and do something with your wife", "don't do things behind your wife's back", "why don't you consider your wife in this choice rather than just yourself", etc. His usual answer is "because this is what I want to do". Really...if she says "yes", it's hard for me to not feel like he deserves it. Sorry if that ruffles anyone's feathers, but that's the way I feel. If you don't like it, you're welcome to not like it. ;
Loki

These are the kinds of conversations SHE needs to have with him though. It's not a question of anyone here having ruffled feathers, I think people are just giving some honest outside perspective. Much of it comes from experience also. The situation with Sif I was very much neutral on because I know that can turn out ok (although I dont recommend it)

This one is very different. Also, being drunk and being emotionally in a very bad place are similar. Not saying that you are necessarily taking advantage, but I think its an important thing that if she were very happily married to a great guy, you WOULDNT ask this. That DOES matter. I dont know about you, but amoral choices Ive made in the past do tend to haunt me. Its easy to rationalize in the moment, but whether or not you'll REALLY look back on this as having been the right thing to do is a totally different question.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

You say you don't feel bad about it, but if it turns out to be devastating for your friend (who already seems fragile, btw), I think you will. If the guy turns psycho (which can happen quicker than you can imagine), then I KNOW you will.

Why not take a different approach. Encourage her to talk to him about what he's doing wrong. Have her give him the wake up call in a HEALTHY way. Then, over some time, have her recall that time you guys were all in bed. Maybe she can fix her marriage, and then bring him around to this lifestyle. If he's a good looking guy and moves beyond his asshole phase, maybe you can ALL end up having fun then, rather than potentially landing on the 6pm news. No?

OK, you've given me two valid things to think about. If I thought this would end up badly for her, I'd withdraw my offer. Seriously...I care about this person, and the last thing I'd want to do is cause her any harm. I may need to think about this one. And her and I need to talk about this one.

Oh believe me, we've all been encouraging her for years now, and encouraging him to do the right thing too. She's tried many, many times. He simply says "OK, I'll do what you ask!" Then, he goes about his own pursuits without a second thought. I wouldn't say she's fragile at all...she's quite a strong, intelligent, and confident woman, just very gentle and not confrontational. (Actually, I've seen her confront someone only a couple or three times in 15 years, and one of those times she was actually protecting me! LOL.). In some ways, we have a very brother/sister kind of relationship.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

This one is very different. Also, being drunk and being emotionally in a very bad place are similar. Not saying that you are necessarily taking advantage, but I think its an important thing that if she were very happily married to a great guy, you WOULDNT ask this. That DOES matter. I dont know about you, but amoral choices Ive made in the past do tend to haunt me. Its easy to rationalize in the moment, but whether or not you'll REALLY look back on this as having been the right thing to do is a totally different question.

Hmm...let me think about this one. My original thought was that I'd only do this if she decided to tell him at least what she was going to do. (And I'd expect that's what she's thinking, but I don't know for sure.) Later I thought it over and decided "I'm not sure I care which she does, as long as she's OK with her decision". But, maybe I need to rethink that. I really wouldn't want her to feel a bunch of guilt.

And I probably need to back up and check myself here. On the bad hubby/good hubby thought...I think some of my "rescue instinct" may be kicking in. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I probably need to think about it.

Story to share on my "rescue instinct"...my wife was with an abusive boyfriend for 12 years when I met her. He was physically and verbally (and emotionally) abusive to her. I took her right away from him, and I felt little or no guilt about it. That's what I'm referring to as my "rescue instinct"...my guilt switch gets turned off when I feel like there's injustice involved. (If you have someone good, and you don't treat them well, someone else will be more than happy to take them off your hands. And they'll be more than happy to go. That's human nature.) Now, in my friend's case, I only want to "take her away" for a weekend, not a lifetime of course (although our friendship I'm sure will be a lifetime friendship). It's kind of like a vacation from reality for a weekend I guess. So, I guess my "rescue instinct" is turning my guilt switch off where the hubby is concerned, because of the situation. But, I have to consider that maybe that's not fair to her? I wouldn't want to entice her into something that's going to be bad for her, or create a bunch of emotional turmoil for her. This is a good question to talk about with her, I think.

Thanks Mix!
Loki

[BiloxiCouple]

The theme song from Cops is now running thru my head...

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

The theme song from Cops is now running thru my head...

"Tonight on COPS: NC... Swinging gone wrong as the COPS team responds to a domestic disturbance with a SPECIAL Twist!"

[clean cut looking "all American" officer] "yeah well you see this kind of thing all the time with "these swingers"... he said she said, one play partner not coming clean with the spouse and then the spouse loses it. This one got a little ugly so we're taking them all downtown to cool off... They didn't have any dope on them though, so we'll probably cut em loose in 24 hours with a warning to ONLY HAVE SEX WITH EACH OTHER from now on!"

[announcer] "thats some good advice for ALL of us officer! NEXT on COPS: NC! the officers score BIG when they come across some poor schmuck with TWO dime bags of loco weed!"

Sorry Loki! Couldnt resist! Although maybe it should be COPS: Asgard?

[good times]

The funny thing about this to me is when I read this, the first thing I thought about was a show we watched the other night where the guy shot and killed his wife's lover. He was indicted and when he went to trial and the jury found him not guilty and let him go.

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by good times

The funny thing about this to me is when I read this, the first thing I thought about was a show we watched the other night where the guy shot and killed his wife's lover. He was indicted and when he went to trial and the jury found him not guilty and let him go.

What state?! That seems impossible to me. Unless there was a struggle and it became self defense? I mean if the guy came in and caught them, and said "get the fuck out of my house!" and then the "lover" swung on him or whatever... Well then sure I can see the husband getting away with shooting him. But cold blooded murder?

Or was this fiction? Personally, I can't imagine how any clear thinking person can sit on a jury and feel that infidelity warrants murder. Thats some crazy shit.

[PB&J]

Under the Napoleonic Code, a man who murdered his cheatin' wife and her lover was not guilty of murder because it was a crime of passion. Of course, if a woman killed her cheatin' man, it was murder, pure and simple.

Well, at least now that Swingtown's off the air, we have something to talk about.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

"Tonight on COPS: NC... Swinging gone wrong as the COPS team responds to a domestic disturbance with a SPECIAL Twist!"
...
Sorry Loki! Couldnt resist! Although maybe it should be COPS: Asgard?

ROTFLMAO! If you only knew how funny this actually is...

Loki