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  1. #16
    Previously of MichiganCouple
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    Originally posted by CanadianCouple
    Ion, you have nothing to feel sorry about. You chose to post information about a woman taking her 21 year old son to a swing club, and that prompted comments which branched off into other areas. That's how converstations are born and expand.

    The "kid" may be 21, but he's still her son. I'm 45, and I can tell you I'd feel nothing short of incestuous about participating in anything even remotely sexual with my 76 year old mother. Bill has this inner compulsion to share anything and everything with his kids, including the fact their parents have sex with other people. I also believe the majority of people reading this thread agree with me, but have chosen not to join in the fray. That's fine, it's their choice to either participate or simply observe.

    Playing amateur psychologist, I still think Bill is unconsciously seeking approval with what he and his wife do, even from their own children. It belies his assertion to the contrary.

    Dan
    I am 45 also, and never considered the reverse situation of sharing anything with my (now deceased) parents, however they didn't swing. They were very devout religous types, and premarital, extra'marital sex were considered deviant under any circumstances. So, I guess you could say they shared their sexual feelings, what they considered right and wrong with me in an honest way, although of course not their actual sexual experiences.

    My feelings are concerning my kids that I could set myself up for being very contradictory if I were to express an opinion on swinging that wasn't honest. It is a subject that did come up by the fact that I cannot hide all of my activities, and when they asked, I was honest.

    That being said, I am not ever going to take one of my kids to a swinging club, but wouldn't necessarily judge someone that did. I mentioned that some life style friends had their daughters wedding at a club. It was an off-premises club btw, but everyone at the club knew them because the daughter was a bartender every week, and it was accepted with no negativity that I can recall. BTW, the daughter nor any of their kids swing.

    As with most subjects concerning sexuality, there isn't always a black or white, but areas that certain people choose that others wouldn't dream of. Swinging itself is one of those areas. Most of my straight friends wouldn't ever consider it and I am sure that some of them would think it to be horribly deviant, immoral, or even illegal.

    Fact is that my kids really have never discussed it with me in a negative way. They don't ask about it much, other than to ask about how a friend is doing or what not. It is a great big non-issue to them.

    Todays kids are having an awful lot of sex anyhow. I remember having same room sex in college, just because of the logistics of dormitories, but not sharing. Today it isn't uncommon for young adults to share there sexual relationships with others, although not common to engage in threesomes, or moresomes....aslo not that uncommon either.

    I think part of the issue here is defining the word "kid". A kid that is over 15 now a days knows more about sex than I did 30 years ago thats for sure. Sure, some of us had sex, but the majority abstained at least until 16 -19 or beyond.

    I just don't lump people that are open sexually with there kids into the 60's free love syndrome. Certain people I am sure share a great deal about sexuality with their kids with positive results. Some share nothing, and have negative results.....it works the other way around also. A lot depends on the overall family healthiness and the ability to communicate. Of course I am a single dad now, and I NEVER have sex in the house (or anywhere lately), but they know I am a sexually normal man that has desires and needs too.

    I just don't jump on the bandwagon of hearing about a certain situation and taking it at face value. This woman felt it appropriate to take her son to a club. It is her choice, it may be right or it may be wrong. It is something I wouldn't do, but many people wouldn't do many of the things I have done. That doesn't make them or I right or wrong, just different. Just like swingers are different. Some swing for the wrong reasons but that doesn't make swinging itself wrong.

    John

  2. #17
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
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    Talking Well put, John!

    Very insightful.

    I'm an "armchair parent", not having children of my own. All I can say at this point is how I feel about things right now. When and if I have children, my attitudes may and probably will change.

    I do have some advice for Bill: if there is ANYONE in your life you don't want to know that you swing, wait until your kids know the meaning of discretion.
    IonSawmill@Yahoo.com
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  3. #18
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    Default Re: Have to say I agree with Bill.

    Originally posted by ionsawmill
    I would have to say that I agree with Bill. I for one would love to be honest with my co-workers, my friends, my family, etc. about swinging. For that matter, there are a lot of people I would love to be honest with about other things in my life. I wish we lived in a world where I could be openly Atheist at work and not lose my job; where I could be honest about the lifestyle with my friends and not be thought a freak; where I could openly bisexual with my family and not be disowned. If Bill has the guts to let the world, including his children, know about the parts of his life that we are all afraid to share, then I think that deserves applause.

    You may think of me as a rather intolerant individual, but that's the furthest thing from the truth. However, there's a big difference between intolerance and not wishing to be made privy of every single nuance of other people's lives. I could care less if you're an Athiest, Muslim, Christian, Buddist, or if you worship doorknobs, but that doesn't mean I want to hear a daily mantra about it on the job. And I suspect those who DO lose their jobs over such issues don't lose them because of their beliefs, but because they simply can't resist inserting plugs into conversations each chance they get. Believe me, I've known some real militant types who apparently can't think of anything BUT their pet cause.

    Like Bill, I think that children need only need to know what is appropriate for their age and maturity and the current thinking in child psychology is to tell children the truth when they ask for it, but only when they ask for it. Bill obviously, from his statements, hasn't been open with his children about swinging. He only says that he will "tell [his] children about swinging and that we do it, but if they don't express an interest in it that will be as far as it goes". I can see nothing wrong with that.

    Again, why would Bill volunteer such personal information with his children? If you've been following this thread from the beginning, that's indeed what he's talking about. If at some future date his kids come across something that looks suspicious, whether it be an email or something along those lines, then he can decide whether or not to come clean. What Bill's talking about is making certain his kids know. Big difference.

    My own parents were not open about their sexual histories, including the fact that my father had a child out of wedlock during a previous relationship. When I found out, in my early 20's, I wasn't shocked by his behavior, but I was hurt that he didn't trust me to understand the situation. Once I understood what had happened to him, I understood so much about why he had raised me the way he did.

    This begs all sorts of possible scenarios. Are you suggesting dad confide in his son that he occasionally has the secretary bent over his desk? Or that mom tells her kids she once got drunk and did it with their daddy's brother? Do you really want to know the complete sexual history of your parents? I sure as hell don't, know more than I want them to know mine.

    What is it with this obsessive need to 'fess up everything to everyone?

    I can understand the you would "feel nothing short of incestuous about participating in anything even remotely sexual with [your] 76 year old mother" but I have to tell you that if you have children, your mother has a pretty good idea that you have sex. Knowing that you exist, I would say that odds are your mother had sex too, and you know it. Is having that knowledge incestuous? Is it incestuous to admit that your parents and your children are sexual beings just like you?

    Sorry, this one stretches the boundries of the imagination. Knowing someone has sex and involving them in your sexual activities by taking them to a club are two different things, and you know it. My mother has daily bodily functions like the rest of us, but that doesn't mean I want to hear a blow by blow description either. Or am I being close minded on THAT too?

    The mother in question at this probably knew that her son was already having sex and wanted to introduce her son to an option that most 21 year olds don't have: a safer alternative to out and out promiscuity*. For all I know, she may have just wanted to take him out and get him drunk on his 21st, and that was her favorite watering hole. Who knows.

    Ah yes, the good old "safe alternative". Shucks, they're gonna do it anyway, so why not make sure they do it RIGHT. Nothing like watching ma gettin' all hot 'n steamy with other men to set sonny on the right track.

    Maybe she just wanted to get him drunk for his 21st B day? And here I thought she had no redeeming qualities as a mother.

    My question would be this: what would happen if one of your children showed up at a swinger function with his or her significant other while you were already there, having independently explored the idea of swinging without knowing you were a swinger? Playing amateur psychologist, I would say that you are either embarrased by your involvement in the lifestyle, or you've raised your children to be intolerant of people with different ideas about what is right and wrong sexually and you fear their disapproval.

    If one of our children showed up at a function, we'd probably either faint of embarrassment, or have a coronary. But the difference is, Ion, the embarrassment would be born of the fact we've strived to keep our sexual lives completely separated from our kids, and theirs as adults from us. You'll probably think this makes us hypocrites, but not at all. It only further illustrates our natural instinct to insolate our children from our private sexual activities.

    There's that word again, "intolerant". I'm beginning to honestly think that means anyone with any limits whatsoever. At least in this context anyway.

    Like many people, I don't tell everyone about my interest in swinging because I fear the repercussions; loss of job, friends, family. While you may not agree with Bill, I think we can both agree that of the three of us, he is probably less likely to end up in an embarassing situation or suffer a heart attack from the stress of living a double life.

    So telling anyone who'll listen about your sex life will contribute to longevity? Kudos Ion, for providing a new and unique twist to the argument. I guess confession is indeed good for the soul, and the heart.

    I may be going out on a limb here, but I don't think Bill was suggesting having sex with our children, having sex in the same room with our children, or discussing all the gory details of our sex lives with our children. Bill simply believes what he is doing is right and good and is intent on raising his children to believe like he does. That's what we expect all parents to do.

    No, I realize Bill wasn't suggesting having sex in the same room as your children (although at this point, I'm not sure he'd discount it either. Intolerance, you know). But taking your kids to a swingers club is going beyond simply making them privy to what mom and dad do on Saturday nights. Can we agree on that much?

    Dan




    *(due to the lower incedence of STD's in the swinger community) [/B]

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Have to say I agree with Bill.

    Originally posted by ionsawmill

    Like many people, I don't tell everyone about my interest in swinging because I fear the repercussions; loss of job, friends, family.
    Ion, not everyone wants to hear of your involvement in swinging, nor mine. And some of them tend to get a tad upset having it shoved into their faces.

    Dan

  5. #20
    Swingers Board Addict EternallySingle's Avatar
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    Default Me and mom

    My mother is not a swinger. She is bisexual. I found out because she was having a relationship with the sister of a couple I used to swing with. We all ended up at the same picnic in East St. Louis. The couple invited me so they could introduce me to one of his coworkers, who they also swung with and happened to be single. My mother was invited by her girlfriend. It was not a tense situation. It was rather funny, but there were none of the perverseness that people tend to think of when they consider parents and children knowing about each other's sexual preferences. In fact, after that day, my mother has actually covered for me (with the rest of my family) when I would go to Chicago to a lifestyle function. She would simply say "Aaron's out with friends. I'll get a message to him" and I don't get a lot of questions. She's also my safe call. Who better to call than mom when things get rocky?
    "Style is not lusting after somone because they are cool. Style is loving yourself till everyone else does too."

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  6. #21
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
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    Smile My mistake.

    I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I do not advocate blabbing about our private lives to strangers or aquaintances, especially those we know to be ignorant and closed-minded.

    You bring up some interesting and valid points. I've read some of your posts on other subjects, and I agree with you on many of them. Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this topic. Thank you for your interest and involvement in this thread.

    T.H.
    Last edited by ionsawmill; 07-21-2003 at 06:34 PM.
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  7. #22
    Only slightly cracked... BradAndJanet's Avatar
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    This has been an interesting topic...

    I would have to say that I would not be uncomfortable if an adult child of ours someday discovered we were swingers. At some point in time, as they become sexually active themselves, they'll probably figure it out, or at least wonder about it. I wouldn't even be surprised if they try it themselves someday; we have raised them to be open minded.

    However, if we were to run into them at a club somewhere down the road, one of us would have to try another night. It's one thing for me to know that they're swingers and quite another to be swinging in the same venue with them. I don't need to witness their sexuality, nor they mine. The whole idea gives me the willies...

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
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  8. #23
    Swingers Board Addict alabamafuntonig's Avatar
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    mom or no mom

    im not sure !

    at least not my mom..some of my friends moms sure!

    dad brought me to a strip club when i was 21 i went with just to appease him ! (ive been going for years before i was 21 ) so its not so strange! maybe mom and son were close enough to tell each other things!

  9. #24
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    I think that as a whole regarding our children, that we wish to be seen in the best light possible with our children, and at the same time, as human beings, with all our faults.

    HOWEVER... to involve our children in the lifestyle (by the way...this really bugs me, we all have a lifetsyle, what makes this so different, is that we are involeved with other sexually, while maintaing our relationships with our spouses, and respecting the santcity of others relationships, therefore, I really don't like the term "lifestyle",), is nothing short of perveted.

    Our children do not need to know what our personal relationships involve. Do we love them? Are we raising them to be responsible, loving adults, knowing that there are consequences to our actions, that we care about them as human beings to attempt to expose them to the things that can harm them.? How many times have you seen a post of a woman (or man), who is heartbroken because of a decision of their spouse made that does not fit into the established realm of a loving nuturing realtionship, that is simply reflective of an urge to satisfy a lust that is based on a hormonal influcence?


    Personally, I would die a thousand deaths to have to look into my child's eyes and try to justify why we are doing this. How could I possibly explain?
    Therefore, I will keep this secret. To protect my family. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME.....to protect my relationship (even if that includes me telling my husband NO...we are NOT going to do that), to protect my child from seeing me as anything as a loving, responsible sane person who is trying their damnest to give them the very best possible chance in life to guarantee as much as we can a good basis for forming relationships, and self image.


    Go ahead and slam me for not being willing to mess up my child's opinion of me. He already knows that I don't have all the answers, but he knows that every decision that I have ever made has been made fully aware of how this might come back and bite me in the butt. I hope to God he never finds out what we are doing. One...it really isn't any of his business, but if he does, I hope that he will be able to judge me with kindness and compassion.

    And for those who are wondering NO WE ARE NOT SWINGING!

  10. #25
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    Default Re: My mistake.

    Originally posted by ionsawmill
    I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I do not advocate blabbing about our private lives to strangers or aquaintances, especially those we know to be ignorant and closed-minded.

    You bring up some interesting and valid points. I've read some of your posts on other subjects, and I agree with you on many of them. Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this topic. Thank you for your interest and involvement in this thread.

    T.H.
    You didn't note to whom this post was addressed, but I'm assuming it was me?

    If so, glad you've enjoyed reading my posts.

    As far as "babbling" to strangers or acquaintences, there are far too many people out there of all stripes who insist on doing just that -- whatever their particular proclivication is, they're constantly shoving it in the faces of everyone around them. And then have the nerve to complain if someone disagrees. I've always been of the mind that, if you want to make your personal life public, you have no right to complain of any slings and arrows that come your way as a result of it. Too many homosexuals are doing just that, wanting it both ways. (no pun intended.)

    Dan

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by alabamafuntonig
    mom or no mom

    im not sure !

    at least not my mom..some of my friends moms sure!

    dad brought me to a strip club when i was 21 i went with just to appease him ! (ive been going for years before i was 21 ) so its not so strange! maybe mom and son were close enough to tell each other things!
    While not necessarily advocating taking your son to a strip club (I'd never take mine, but that's a personal decision), comparing a visit to the local strip club with patronizing a swinger's club with your child is simply ludicrous. Talk about apples and oranges........

    Dan

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by Tarnished Halo
    I think that as a whole regarding our children, that we wish to be seen in the best light possible with our children, and at the same time, as human beings, with all our faults.

    HOWEVER... to involve our children in the lifestyle (by the way...this really bugs me, we all have a lifetsyle, what makes this so different, is that we are involeved with other sexually, while maintaing our relationships with our spouses, and respecting the santcity of others relationships, therefore, I really don't like the term "lifestyle",), is nothing short of perveted.

    Our children do not need to know what our personal relationships involve. Do we love them? Are we raising them to be responsible, loving adults, knowing that there are consequences to our actions, that we care about them as human beings to attempt to expose them to the things that can harm them.? How many times have you seen a post of a woman (or man), who is heartbroken because of a decision of their spouse made that does not fit into the established realm of a loving nuturing realtionship, that is simply reflective of an urge to satisfy a lust that is based on a hormonal influcence?


    Personally, I would die a thousand deaths to have to look into my child's eyes and try to justify why we are doing this. How could I possibly explain?
    Therefore, I will keep this secret. To protect my family. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME.....to protect my relationship (even if that includes me telling my husband NO...we are NOT going to do that), to protect my child from seeing me as anything as a loving, responsible sane person who is trying their damnest to give them the very best possible chance in life to guarantee as much as we can a good basis for forming relationships, and self image.


    Go ahead and slam me for not being willing to mess up my child's opinion of me. He already knows that I don't have all the answers, but he knows that every decision that I have ever made has been made fully aware of how this might come back and bite me in the butt. I hope to God he never finds out what we are doing. One...it really isn't any of his business, but if he does, I hope that he will be able to judge me with kindness and compassion.

    And for those who are wondering NO WE ARE NOT SWINGING!

    Tarnished, I agree 100% with

    every

    single

    word.

    Dan

  13. #28
    Swingers Board Addict Nymph an' Satyr's Avatar
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    Geeeeze, and I was thinking about finding "Mrs. Robinson" at the club and introducing her to my son when her turns 18.

    Some of you are acting like there is something wrong with swinging. There's nothing wrong, immoral, or unnatural about it. It simply isn't mainstream, that's all.

    And though I don't really plan to introduce my kids to swinging, if and when they find out, I'm not going to freak either.

    A little to much judgmentalism, in my judgmental opinion

  14. #29
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    Originally posted by Nymph an' Satyr
    Geeeeze, and I was thinking about finding "Mrs. Robinson" at the club and introducing her to my son when her turns 18.

    Some of you are acting like there is something wrong with swinging. There's nothing wrong, immoral, or unnatural about it. It simply isn't mainstream, that's all.

    And though I don't really plan to introduce my kids to swinging, if and when they find out, I'm not going to freak either.

    A little to much judgmentalism, in my judgmental opinion
    Nah, not judgementalism, just a strong aversion to involving children in our private, sexual matters. Who ever said swingers should be exempt from having some sort of moral code?

    Dan

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by CanadianCouple
    Who ever said swingers should be exempt from having some sort of moral code?
    HOLY COW, have I missed a lot the last couple of weeks!

    I agree wholeheartedly with what Dan said here. There is a fine line between being honest and spilling your guts or encouraging when it comes to your kids.

    Having been put in the position of where my youngest and most spiciest learned of this board and directly asked me about it, (and I know for a fact she has visited the site, don't know if she went past the opening page though) I can comment here. Knowing that she may have read all of my postings, there are some things that you just don't share with your kids and they shouldn't ask you to. I call it common courtesy. Respect, Morals. I asked for that respect from my daughter when she asked me about what is this 'Swingersboard' site all about? To date, she has adhered to it and not brought it up again, although she seems to be increasingly more open about discussing other things with me regarding sexual issues. But that line stops there. And I know where to draw it.

    There is no way on God's green earth that I would share any intimate details about swinging, much less take one to a club and play in their presence or vicinity. Now, if she would ask me questions about an alternative lifestyle, such as swinging, I'll answer them, to the best of my knowledge. I'm pretty open with my kids, and they will ask me about darn near anything, but they know where that line is too and they don't cross it.

    Case in point, the youngest daughter dropped in the other day, without much notice...and I quote "Mom, you need to change me off of this screen name and put me on another." Why? Because she knew that the computer had been left on under a screen name that allows access to our intimate lives (she knew it) and she didn't want to intrude on it or stumble upon something she shouldn't. That is called RESPECT.

    Something far too many kids lack these days.

    Stepping off my soapbox now....
    Remember that human beings are complicated creatures. We like our bedtime routines but dislike routine in our bed times. - Sallie Foley, M.S.W.

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