Lifestyle Entertainment Raided

[JustAskJulie]

Evidently another club was recently raided.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pionee...5255.htmPosted

Anyone know any more about this?

[leftcoastcouple]

Warning: Naive newbie question of the day is forthcoming.

If holding and/or attending a party or club is not illegal, as the article Julie referenced states, then what business do the police have detaining and photographing those in attendance? That sucks!

This has me a bit concerned. Based on conversations we shared this weekend, my wife and I are getting really close to taking the plunge, but we can't run the risk of having our names or photos on file with any police department, anywhere. We've talked about attending a local off-site club as a minimally-threatening way of getting our feet wet.

One of us has a fairly visible, high-profile position, and unlike some of you who've expressed a lack of concern over being "found out," we can't run the risk--at least not until we're face to face, where there's no running away from reality! Nor can we risk any legal headaches. Call us wimps if you will. Perhaps in the future we'll lose our fear, but for now, we feel we can't.

So, the question remains: What exactly are the legal issues surrounding party and club attendance, and where do the cops get off documenting those who supposedly did nothing illegal?

[JustAskJulie]

While swingers parties are not on the local Chamber of Commerce's list of desired businesses, Messerich insisted that police were concerned only with enforcing drug laws and had received credible reports of drug use and sales by people who attended Cline's parties.

The above quote explains the legal issues in this particular case and what caused them to get raided.

It's very important when looking into a club to attend that you make sure they operating above the law, that drugs are not allowed and that the club owners have obtained all necessary permits and licenses to run their business as they are doing.

[Elusive BiFem]

I've wondered the same thing.

Now with Julie's response, my next concern would be if this drug thing was just an excuse of some sort. Similar to the woman that sold some sex toys to 2 undercover cops here - just a few days ago.

- EBF

[JustAskJulie]

They can't raid a place without cause, but yes they will most likely look for any cause they can to raid a club if they know it's there.

Unfortunately, many people opt to try to fly under the raider to avoid trouble and end up causing themselves more trouble by not acquiring the proper licensing and permits, talking to a lawyer, and just in general making sure that they are legal.

[BiloxiCouple]

It sounds like the police were "tipped off" about the drugs?

Either someone doesn't like drugs or doesn't like the club itself.

[fun_pairTX]

To raid and perform a search the police must first obtain a warrant that is extremely specific as to what evidence they seek to obtain and what crimes they have probable cause to believe were violated. The warrant must be obtained from a judge and an affadavit or affadavits must be filed by the police agency seeking to obtain the warrant. A simple tip off is usually insufficient as probable cause to obtain a warrant in most all cases. Now it may have started as a tip that prompted an undercover investigation that led to the warrant being granted, but this is hardly a short, inexpensive, or impulsive sort of process. Believe it or not the 4th Amendment is out there protecting us all.

[Additude]

Originally posted by leftcoastcouple
but we can't run the risk of having our names or photos on file with any police department, anywhere.

I am not an attorney, but you do have certain unalienable rights which protect you from unwarranted search and seizure.

You can request legal counsel prior to submitting for any foriensic or identification measures, unless an issued warrant stating such has been issued or you are placed under arrest.

Unless the police get a warrant to raid every bar and private club in their jurisdiction on every tip they receive, or launch an investigation and determine that there may be drugs or drug trafficing present and along with that raid document and identify each and every individual present by photo, etc. then they are showing prejudice. Unless the cops do it to everybody everytime and show presidence, they can't be selective.

But, with that said, I would personally deny the poice request for any permanent identification other than information already present on my drivers license. Which has my picture of course. But that picture doesn't do me justice.

If you do not object to the action or procedure of having the police take your photo, then you agree to it. Also at 1AM in the morning, it's difficult to get legal advise.

The police cannot hold you without cause and denying them to take your picture is not reasonable cause.

But if you are that concerned over being identified, then I'd suggest you be more descrete and know if the cops have a habit of raiding such establishments in your area and avoid that situation. Stick to private couples, your home, private house parties, etc.

[Elusive BiFem]

I'll go with you on this one, Mr. Fun_Pair. Your background and experience lends more credibility along these lines than mine.

But from reading the article Julie posted, it sure does look as if maybe the police were just looking for an excuse to raid this club. And we know charges can be trumped up, as in the infamous Dallas drug cases we are now seeing. Given the fact that only a small amount of meth and coke were found among all these people makes me tend to believe this may have been a trumped up thing. Even I know that when you put a hundred people together at a party, you will generally find drugs somewhere in the mix.

- EBF

[fun_pairTX]

The Dallas cases are a total mess EBF. It took really dirty cops to make that scam work, they will soon face the Karma.
As far as tempting the odds on finding at least SOME drugs given a general number of partygoers, this does bear some creedence, but if an officer swears an affadavit, gets a warrant and comes up emptyhanded, he or she is forever on the "get screwed" list of the judge that signs off on the warrant. There aren't too many people that are willing to risk that.

[BiloxiCouple]

From the newspaper article:

While swingers parties are not on the local Chamber of Commerce's list of desired businesses, Messerich insisted that police were concerned only with enforcing drug laws and had received credible reports of drug use and sales by people who attended Cline's parties.

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by BiloxiCouple
From the newspaper article:

I read the article, BiloxiCouple, and noted the quote you mentioned. I guess I'm just a bit too paranoid maybe?

Fun_Pair made good points in talking about making the judge mad if he/she signs off on a warrant and nothing is found.

However...could this attitude lead to the "planting of evidence" we occasionally hear/read about? Or maybe I just read too many books and watch too much Prime Time TV.

But thanks to all for the replies to my questions and concerns.

- EBF

[leftcoastcouple]

I am not an attorney, but you do have certain unalienable rights which protect you from unwarranted search and seizure.

I don't know about other parts of the country, but I'll tell you that in much of California, the police have no problem doing as they please and worrying about fine lines of legality later. And if privacy is an issue to you, you only have one chance, because once it's sacrificed, you can't get it back. But I've lived here all my life, and since I've witnessed such abuses firsthand, I don't really care to argue that point.

Moreover, I was curious whether clubs were legal. Reading the article Julie referenced and several others I stumbled upon last night, the answer, in California at least, is "yes." But that's clearly not a guarantee that the police won't show up under other pretenses and cause trouble for those in attendance. And I'm still curious about the legality of private swingers' parties. Hell, the police can break up a non-sexual party in a private residence simply if it's deemed to noisy, so what's to stop them in this case?

Furthermore, the presence of drugs (or suspicion of it) in a large gathering, as Julie and EBF alluded to, seems a given, and if the cops want to use that as a way to break up a function that the neighbors are likely to object to anyway, they're not going to have a hard time convincing a judge to issue a warrant, I would think. And they're likely to have widespread community support, as this story illustrates:

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...gers-0309.html

So, to Additude's point, do we have rights if the police show up? Sure we do. But if names and addresses are being taken from folks simply by virtue of their having been there, then it's something for at least some of us to consider.

I realize many of you will say this is overanalyzing the issue--and even paranoia--but for people like me and my wife who are concerned about privacy, it's really not.

Meanwhile, I appreciate the points Julie and others made, because this is all new to me and my wife, and it adds to our working knowledge of lifestyle issues. Thanks for sharing your opinions, experience, and information.

[bill&sabrina]

I have been accused of being a tin hat wearing sewer pump for bringing up the possibility that swingers could be discriminated againsnt. Regardless of what unalianable rights we have they aren't worth the paper they are printed on if no one defends them. That is clearly what happened at the club in the article. Noone was willing to say do what the warrant specifies you are here to do and leave the rest of us alone. I suggested that swingers as a community come out of hiding and demand our rights be honored, but it seemed more popular to hide and do nothing. I don't suggest that everyone that swings march in parades, but we need some type of organization to protect what we do. Something like NORML. Not everyone that supports that organization is willing to let it be known to the public. Some are and they are more than happy to publicly represtent those that will not. I am sure that some swingers would be more than happy to publicly represent the community as a whole in preserving rights that allow us to swing. I can't wait to see how Bear insults me for saying what I have just said. I am well aware that as a swinger I belong to a minority that can be discriminated agaisnt if I don't defend my rights somehow. I just hope that others here on the board don't learn that they too can be discriminated against by going through it. It can and does happen.

Bill

[Close Encounters]

Originally posted by bill&sabrina
I suggested that swingers as a community come out of hiding and demand our rights be honored, but it seemed more popular to hide and do nothing. I don't suggest that everyone that swings march in parades, but we need some type of organization to protect what we do. Something like NORML. Not everyone that supports that organization is willing to let it be known to the public. Some are and they are more than happy to publicly represtent those that will not. I am sure that some swingers would be more than happy to publicly represent the community as a whole in preserving rights that allow us to swing.
Bill

Though headlines are never sought for the work they do NASCA exist for this very reason.

As to the article in question, it was the DUTY of the club owner to restrict the police to the areas covered by the warrant. One of the things his attorney should have briefed him on in their monthly meetings.