Abusive male club owners? Am I wrong?

[JohnSwings]

My girlfriend (quite bi) and I (straight) went through my first swing experience at a local on-premise club last Saturday night. This was my first experience, her 4th or 5th (she did some swinging before I met her a year ago.) We are both very sexually active and open, having had numerous men and women for us to "share" in the past.

Rules: We have only one rule, and that is that we won't have intercourse with anyone unless our partner is in the same room to participate or at least cheer the other on. I should point out that my girlfriend is quite luscious and is always getting hit on wherever we go. This does not bother me, it makes me proud.

OK, sounds good. So we arrive at the club, find the people relatively friendly. Two couples run the club, but their wives/girlfriends were unable to attend. So the event was run by two males who don't have partners. This club has a rule of no single males.

As soon as we arrive one of these guys pulls my lady away and takes her on an extended tour during which he is fondling her. I thought this was a very rude way to greet us as a new couple, so I got a miffed and found her and retrieved her.

Everything went OK until we took our clothes off and went to a semi-private room with two beds, no doors. One of the owners of the club went with us and immedately started heavy sex with her. I still had no problem with this, it being my first time and not knowing what to expect. Fiinally, she started to get very sore from his heavy round of sex, she tried to tell him to stop, but he was not listening to her. So I knelt on the bed next to her and had to politely push him off her. Don't want to insult the owner, right? Immediately after this I went at it with another woman in the room while my girlfriend watched. No problem there, except my girlfriend thought I spent too much time on that girl, about 10 minutes.

Everything is somewhat OK at this point, except my lady is sore from too much too soon, this being from the "single" owner.

The night goes on, and an hour later we are in a semi-private room again. Both male owners of the club come in with us and I realize it is 3 guys and her (counting me). So I ask her if I should go find a woman for her. She says "YES!", so I take off to find another woman. I tour the large house and finally find a woman and bring her and a guy back. This probably took 10 minutes.

When I came back to the room my girlfriend is kneeling on the bed giving one owner a blowjob, and she tells me the other owner entered her doggy-style without asking her. She wasn't real happy about this, but I didn't pick up on this at the time. Stuff was really happening too fast for me as a newcomer.

Here is our problem: The next day my girlfriend asked me what the hell I was doing when I left her alone with those guys in that room so long. I was looking for a girl for her, but I took too long. She said the guys were impatient, and she felt pressure to entertain them until I got back. So her normal routine at this time is to give a guy a BBBJ, but then the other guy took it upon himself to enter her without explicit permission. Now she says I wasn't man enough to stick around and cover her back, I say I was a pretty darn nice guy to go find her a woman. Now this has become a big argument for us.

THE BIG PROBLEM: I'm new at this, so didn't know how strong I should be towards the owners. After all, they are the keepers and enforcers of the rules. Through hindsight I see that they actually did things that were akin to a little bit of rape in my absence. But this is a swing situation, so I wasn't sure. Now I'm angry. I'm angry at my girlfriend for breaking the only rule we have: we will not fuck other people unless we are both in the room. I'm angry at the owners for being SINGLE men at a COUPLES ONLY party.

Where we stand now: I just had a short discussion with my girlfriend about this. My comment- I was out finding you a woman! Her comment- "You were not man enough to cover my back." Well, why do we have a rule for eachother that she is allowed to occasionally break and I am not? Her excuse is always, "Well, the guy(s) were impatient and you weren't there!" This happend once before a long time ago in a different environment, similar situation.

Help!

Johnswings

[naughty A]

coulda, woulda, shoulda

sounds like a whole lot of no win argument to me.

I don't suppose both sides could admit that mistakes were made and chalk it up to a bad learning experience?

I do think that the club owners were wrong to participate without their partners present. Especially if they were with you -- who was minding the store, so to speak?

[Bob123]

First of I am no expert, this is my humble opinion. I think both your gf and the club owners may be wrong. I do not think that you are however. I think your gf did not want to speak up because she wanted to fit in. I would tell your girlfriend that she should have been woman enough to stand up for herself and tell those guys no. She should have been woman enough to tell you she was not comfortable to let you go find another girl and leave her there. This is not your fault. She is trying to put the blame on you because she is wrong for having sex without you in the room. You said she has done this before. Don't let her pass the buck. Tell her how much you dislike this. Tell her how you feel. If it really bothers you tell her if she blames something that she did wrong on you again that you will be done with her. Tell her if she has sex without you in the room again you are finished. She was giving the guy head. She was naked. She didn't scream or yell or try and fight the guy off? She wanted the club owners to like her and wanted you to be the one who stopped them without her having to give you any clear signs so the club owners would be angry at you and not her. I would tell her that she is not woman enough to accept responciblility for her own actions. I would tell her to grow up or get out. But that is just my opinion. I am done taking shit from someone because they claim to be sugar and spice and everything nice.

[naughty A]

Sure Bob - Just chuck everything in the toilet rather than try to work things out. Can tell why you don't have a long term relationship...

[ciscosv]

There would have been black eyes and bloody noses had someone ignored my wifes displeasure. I feel that she was raped. NO ALWAYS MEANS NO. Disrespect that and there is big trouble in little China. I am not a violent person but your experience really bothered me. Rules were broke and you met a couple of shady dudes. There is not a whole lot you can do now but to move on from this point without getting angry at each other. This maybe a good time to stick with an off premise, no sex, no pressure atmosphere. If their club is listed on this site or any other, tell your story about it to deter more unsuspecting couples.

[Roxysbayou]

Originally posted by ciscosv
There would have been black eyes and bloody noses had someone ignored my wifes displeasure. I feel that she was raped. NO ALWAYS MEANS NO.

This is the same impression that I got when I first read this post.

I hate to say if but I feel that you both could have acted differently in this situation. From what I read, she should have been more aggressive in her disinterest. She could have gotten up and left the room instead of performing oral sex for example.

You could have guarded her a little better. At one point you stated that you physically had to push him off of her, then you immediatley moved on to another woman, leaving her alone.

Don't be afraid to speak your mind, especially about sex, no matter who is involved.

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by naughty A
Sure Bob - Just chuck everything in the toilet rather than try to work things out. Can tell why you don't have a long term relationship...

Oh, how I wish I could use the ignore button, but it is things like this that just gripe my groin....


Lori

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by ciscosv
There would have been black eyes and bloody noses had someone ignored my wifes displeasure. I feel that she was raped. NO ALWAYS MEANS NO. Disrespect that and there is big trouble in little China. I am not a violent person but your experience really bothered me. Rules were broke and you met a couple of shady dudes. There is not a whole lot you can do now but to move on from this point without getting angry at each other. This maybe a good time to stick with an off premise, no sex, no pressure atmosphere. If their club is listed on this site or any other, tell your story about it to deter more unsuspecting couples.

I'm gonna side with Ciscosv. Rules were broken by everyone of you. Including yourself by not taking the initiative to put an end to the situation.

I personally have been on the end of receiving of unwanted sexual behavior. I DID NOT know how to speak up about it at the time and that is one of the many reasons we have ceased swinging. On my husbands behalf, he was unaware as we made some wrong choices, ones that we will never make again, if we decide to swing. I can understand where your girlfriend is coming from and I can understand your angle also.

Like your girlfriend I felt betrayed in a sense by my husband. The plain and simple fact of the matter was, we didn't have our own rules/boundries established well enough AGAIN!!! It is all part of the learning experience. Like Ciscosv, had my husband encountered my particular situation he would have been highly pissed off and there isn't a violent bone in his body.

What disturbs me even more is the fact that these club owner's broke their own unspoken rule (by not allowing single males) that they as singles themselves took advantage of something that isn't offered to the general single population. I can say this event that happened with these club owners has not been anything that we have ever encountered. All staff members are strictly forbidden to engage in any sexual acts.

My advice to you is to talk about this and continue to talk about it with your girlfriend until you come to an agreement of how you would like to proceed as swingers....if you choose to do so. There were a lot of mistakes made on everybody's part.

Lori

[Alura]

We agree with everybody except Bob123.

We're not club goers but feel the transgressions of the owners in this case needs to be communicated to other swingers. Please post your story on the Club Reviews to warn others who might unwittingly fall into their trap.

Do you feel they really have wives? Could they be a couple of single guys who keep all other singles out for their own benefit?

Please post the name of the club and the city on this thread.

Alura

[Chicup]

While the club owners seemed like jerks, a lot of this seems to be both of your fault as well. They are owners of a swing club, not the gestapo, if things get uncomfortable talk to them. If they don't seem to care then leave.

You should have not have left her alone, period. Thats just common sense. Even at a non-swinging party I wouldn't leave my wife alone with 2 men she already had some problems with.

She should have spoken up if it was such a big deal to her. Based on the moves my wife can do when we play around, if she doesn't want me in her, its not going to happen. If she felt to intimidated then she shouldn't be swinging. You need to speak up for yourself.

The club owners should have asked, and made sure everyone was happy with it, but if you didn't say anything, its your own faults.

[Fire_and_Air]

This sounds to me like a scenario that went from bad to worse because both of you were hesitant to just speak up or walk away from the situation. I have been in a similar place, as a new swinger who just 'went with the flow' rather than putting a firm end to activity that was going too quickly or getting too out of control for my comfort. Like your gf, and like Lori, I once had a hard time just standing up and saying "no" with real conviction, and afterward, I ended up blaming my boyfriend for not coming to my rescue, when in his eyes it looked as if I was doing fine at the time.

Why didn't your girlfriend leave the scene, if she felt like she was being pressured? Was it because they were the club owners? Was it because she was just waiting it out, hoping that you would arrive quickly? Or was it because she didn't want to make a scene? You did ask her whether she wanted you to go off and get another woman.... did she mean to go with you, or did she seem okay about you going off and leaving her then?

I don't think the two of you should be pointing fingers at each other so much, when I think a lot of the blame is <i>really</i> on the club owners for taking advantage. It's more important that you two discuss at length where things went wrong, and reaffirm your rules... and maybe make some new ones... such as, don't be afraid to put an end to a bad situation immediately, or don't ever leave each other's presence at an on-premises club.

Being new at swinging will bring with it your share of mistakes and both bad and good experiences.... if you're like us, you've probably learned from your mistakes and will now be a lot more careful and selective about who to play with (and who you'll let play with you) in the future.

[DragonsLair]

Originally posted by Bob123
First of I am no expert, this is my humble opinion.

You said it Bob you are definitley not an expert, but you missed the whole freakin nail with that sledge hammer about being humble. Exactly at what point have you ever presented yourself as a humble person or an expert....

I think both your gf and the club owners may be wrong. I do not think that you are however.

Yes the club owner and the girl were wrong but so was this guy. He should have never left her alone in the first place and after the first time with one club owner she didnt like, why in hell did he let them get mixed up with them again....ok now Im waiting for your expert oppinion.

I think your gf did not want to speak up because she wanted to fit in. I would tell your girlfriend that she should have been woman enough to stand up for herself and tell those guys no.

At what point is one woman to say no to two men without getting abused even more..and what more: how can a woman in a sex club complain to the cops that she was raped without stating why she was there, thereby rendering her story null and void.


She should have been woman enough to tell you she was not comfortable to let you go find another girl and leave her there. This is not your fault.

At this point it is his fault because he was looking for away to get out of the room. And exactly how is he supposed to be able to go out for only a second to find another woman to come back to a room, whom he has never met before. Of course its going to take a while. This was a cop out so he wouldnt have to deal with the two club owners. He never should have left the room.

She is trying to put the blame on you because she is wrong for having sex without you in the room. You said she has done this before. Don't let her pass the buck. Tell her how much you dislike this. Tell her how you feel. If it really bothers you tell her if she blames something that she did wrong on you again that you will be done with her. Tell her if she has sex without you in the room again you are finished. She was giving the guy head. She was naked. She didn't scream or yell or try and fight the guy off? She wanted the club owners to like her and wanted you to be the one who stopped them without her having to give you any clear signs so the club owners would be angry at you and not her. I would tell her that she is not woman enough to accept responciblility for her own actions. I would tell her to grow up or get out. But that is just my opinion. I am done taking shit from someone because they claim to be sugar and spice and everything nice.

[b]

And clearly from what he said she did, she gave them blowjobs in hopes that he would return before it went any futher. Its obvious that in order to appease and tense situation she did what she thought was the minimum to get out of a bad situation, in hopes that her man would return before it went to far, but obviously with two men and one mouth people get inpatient. And when he did return, she did mention the incident upfront and he stood there and did nothing, until he had a spout of guilt for not being there for her when she really needed him. Now this isnt to say she was right, just that you are only looking at it one way. He was a newbie, and should not have been put in this situation, but he is a man and should have stopped it before they entered a room with the two owners after the first owner was more then should could hanle.

If you have a problem with girls Bob123, maybe you should stick to the Tranny sites..might be easier for your backside to handle. Girls can be a bit fickle, but they are sure fun to tickle. And all that sugar and spice works just fine for me, when Im drivin my tongue deep inside that sweet box....

Are you really through with sugar and spice...So that means you are looking to toss a lot of salad than..

I am T(Lossin My Hair)She is A(The Thighs where My Hair is Rubbing off at)

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by DragonsLair
[b]

And clearly from what he said she did, she gave them blowjobs in hopes that he would return before it went any futher. Its obvious that in order to appease and tense situation she did what she thought was the minimum to get out of a bad situation, in hopes that her man would return before it went to far, but obviously with two men and one mouth people get inpatient. And when he did return, she did mention the incident upfront and he stood there and did nothing, until he had a spout of guilt for not being there for her when she really needed him. Now this isnt to say she was right, just that you are only looking at it one way. He was a newbie, and should not have been put in this situation, but he is a man and should have stopped it before they entered a room with the two owners after the first owner was more then should could hanle.

If you have a problem with girls Bob123, maybe you should stick to the Tranny sites..might be easier for your backside to handle. Girls can be a bit fickle, but they are sure fun to tickle. And all that sugar and spice works just fine for me, when Im drivin my tongue deep inside that sweet box....

Are you really through with sugar and spice...So that means you are looking to toss a lot of salad than..

I am T(Lossin My Hair)She is A(The Thighs where My Hair is Rubbing off at)

I don't normally quote a whole posting but here I have to.

***STANDING UP AND APPLAUDING****

You are a pain in my ass sometimes "T" but there are more times often than not that you just make me say ****WOO HOO**** and thank you.

Sorry for using the word 'ass" but it WAS speaking of my own.

Lori ~ Who is SO happy!!!!!

[OhioCouple]

JohnSwings,

I hope that you don't think that DragonsLair's posting was meant to make you feel as you were the bad guy in this.

Their posting was made by the male half which (as many of us are) are tired of the degredation (sp...and not really sure if that is a word) of women in general.

Simple fact of the matter is you are new to swinging, you both made mistakes and you can learn by them. (In your case though you were also abused by the management of a club and I'd not attend there again)

I do wish you both the best. Let us know how your own personal talks work out.

Lori

[Bob123]

The night goes on, and an hour later we are in a semi-private room again. Both male owners of the club come in with us and I realize it is 3 guys and her (counting me). So I ask her if I should go find a woman for her. She says "YES!", so I take off to find another woman. I tour the large house and finally find a woman and bring her and a guy back. This probably took 10 minutes. --quote



First of all he asked her if he should go find another woman and she said YES

Second of all this was his first swinging experience and her fourth or fifth.



I do not see what he did wrong. She told him to go look for another girl. He is new at this she is not. He was not present when the guy entered her or she started giving a bj. She should have left the room. He did not expect her to start blowing or fucking these guys when he left because their rule is no sex without the other in the room. In short all he did is what she told him to and what she did was break the couples only rule, then she tells him he is not man enough to protect her? wtf! She is in the wrong her.

In short-

She is experienced in swinging he is not

She told him to leave and go find another girl

She broke the couple's only rule

Not only did she not apologise but she blamed everything on him and even questioned his manhood