Abusive male club owners? Am I wrong?

[EternallySingle]

The woman who introduced me to swinging had been swinging for five years before she met me. She laid out the basics of what I could expect at the club while we were on the road between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, then, on the highway between Kazoo and Jackson, we talked about what we could and couldn't do. I said I was just going to sit back, talk to some people, and watch, but if she wanted to do anything with anyone, I wanted to be there. Of course, having studied martial arts for seven years (and being 19 with a washboard stomach...I miss my abs ) I was confident that noone would do anything she didn't want if I was present, and I was going to be present, even if I didn't do anything. Well, after a few hours I said I wanted to join a group and she let me bend the rules we set forth. BUT we knew what we were going to ALLOW THE OTHER to do and when we (I) felt like going forward, we talked it over. That was the main thing...WE TALKED IT OVER! All of it. What to expect, what to allow. Everything, and that kept us from having hard feelings. The two times we didn't talk things over was the not at a club or party, but at her apartment with friends we often swung with. Once I was with the wife without her knowledge and once she was with the both of them without mine. Both times there were hurt feelings and finger pointing, then we talked worked things out. Of course, the one thing we couldn't work out was my wanting to join the Army, but thats another story for another time.

[JohnSwings]

Originally posted by JustAskJulie
Regarding this being her 4th or 5th exprerience. While it may have been her 4th or 5th experience even, it may still well have been her first time at a club.

Well, this thread has been invaluable to me.

I mulled it all over for more than a week now, and finally had a frank discussion with the GF. I didn't mince words, I pretty much said "I made mistakes, you made mistakes, and the owners are jerks." Then I put it all together for her in sequence, as follows: When we arrived, she walked away with a guy (friend of owners) who gave her a tour. She was gone way too long, so I had to hunt her down. (She recently admitted the guy tried to get a quickie out of her on the "tour".) I told her this was my first impression of the operation, and it sucked. No pun intended.

Then I reminded her of her instructions to me:
1. Go with the flow.
2. Follow her lead.
3. Don't do anything too pushy, since I'm clueless.
4. Sexual things only happen when both together in room.

When we finally got settled into the club, the same old guy that gave her the tour came up behind her and started fondling her breasts through her clothes. She wasn't pushing him off, so I figured this is how it is supposed to go. I didn't exactly like it, I didn't know how this all works, so I walked away and talked to some people on the other side of the room. At this point I decided that clubbing might really suck. My instructions from my "experienced" GF were to not cause any trouble. Fine.

Also at this point my impression was that I brought an attractive, young, sexy woman, and guys would just do what they want with her. We are not at all jealous people, and we both firmly understand the difference between sex and love. That is important. We enjoy seeing our partner having sex with others. BUT, at this point I felt quite alone. Not a good feeling.

You all know how the rest of the night went

She has not been to a club of this type while in a serious relationship. We are deeply in love with eachother. She is also a woman who can defend herself physically. Believe me, she can. You don't want to know. So I felt no compulsion to go caveman on her and start yanking guys off of her. She wasn't complaining.

Here is the defense of her part: In the past she had gone to mostly off-premise parties, and she has attended with men who were only a casual relationship. She admits that at those parites she would simply walk away from her partner and find men and woman to get involved with on her own. She admits to having fallen into those habits. so the "couple together" concept was tough for her. She is an admitted sex addict, and I bless God for having created such a woderful woman - skilled at sex and enjoys it immensely.

You know the rest of the story. But here are how we worked out the main nasty issues we spontaneously created out of inexperience or lack of care:

a. Her being yanked from me for the club tour, pissed me off, but she didn't admit the sneaky sex attempt by this guy. Way after the fact (a week) she said I should have said something. Let's see here --- I'm at the club for 10 minutes, she walks away and had the guy fondle her and try to snatch a quickie. I didn't know till later. Next time this happens she has approved a definite polite neanderthal move on my part, something as simple as grabbing the guys arm and asking him where his attractive young spouse is. Trust me, there was none.

b. We start with single club owner (we actually got the party going early (at my suggestion) since everyone was still dressed, but my clothes were wanting to fly off my body. I suggested she blow him and me while sit at the sofa. People come in to watch. So far, so good. Others start to strip. Aha! The Newbies lit the fire! Not bad for my first time. The owner complimented us on this, since GF and I are exhibionists and wanted everyone naked asap. Fine and dandy. But this led to the four of us (GF, me, two owners) going to private room asap. Again, this sucked for me, I watched. She got sore. She was trying to tell him to get off, but she was too polite. I moved in and told him to politely stop, which he immediatley did. In our talk I told her to speak up more - I thought she was fine, but she was afraid to offend the owner, so put up with more than she should. Remember, I'm going with the flow? Eventually was forced to tell him to stop. No big deal, he did. We agree that was OK.

C. The big deal in the private room with two beds. She wanders in with the two guys again. She tells me to find a woman and bring her. I leave and take about 10 minutes to find her/get her. Upon my return GF is doggy on bed, man in from behind, man in mouth. I figure this is the way it goes, ignore situation, hang out til they are done, and then suggest we leave for the orgy room. We finally hook up with younger attractive couple and share mutual oral sex all around. That was wonderful, just wonderful. We both agree that part was good. We got their phone numbers and will see them again. We have no problem there, except for the fact the other guys "bi" woman was so shy as to do nothing more than a clit rub on my GF. The usual disappointment with women who proclaim their eternal bi-sexuality. That is another topic, right?

Well, to sum up a LONG post, here is the fallout:

We will try another swing club, not this one until we have hardened our defenses.

The GF will honor THE RULE or else we will no longer swing. (THE RULE: sex will only take place when the other partner is in room.)

I will happily be a polite neanderthal to any male jerk who thinks I've brought him an easy mark. Comments such as "Where is the woman you brought for me?" (suggestions invited) should work?

We will stick by eachothers side. After too much exposure to the aggressive acquisition techniques used at this club, we decided we must work much, much better as a team. She lacks the skill because she never had to act that way, I lack the skill based on inexperience and fear of offending the owners. Just wait!!!!

When working as a couple and meeting people we will give them the rules: Where is your partner? Can we meet her? We only deal with couples. Why is your wife/GF not here? That's too bad. Isn't this against the club rules? My wife (or I) will do nothing sexual unless the other partner is in the room, so back off.

Summary: After going through the entire discussoin above, she and I decided we can certainly do it again, but we'll be a team. We were not a team; a couple.

At this time I pity th poor "old-guy-who-brought-his-wife-and- stuck-her-in-the-kitchen-so-he-can-go-forth-and-conquer" fellas who might approach us or grab her in the future. I won't make a scene, but they will certainly be told how it works with us.

My GF's reaction to all this? She is mortified. Previously, she thought I just screwed up. It turns out that she should have been telling people "NO" right from the start. This problem came from her lack of experience at an aggressive club. The problem intensified as a result of me having been told to backoff and not cause trouble. Next time, I figure I will be allowed to be myself, to pick and choose who is lucky enough to enjoy a sexual connection with the love of my life, and the same for her. We feel that we have empowered eachother, and that is a beautiful thing.

In a prior life I was a seriously jealous guy. I fixed that, but now learn that some jealousy might be OK. I'll modulate it to fit the situation.

Thanks for listening.

Please give me advice on the specifics of the problem areas - what do I say to some horny old guy grabbing at my GF way too early in the paryty?

Thanks,
JohnSwings (or hopes to)

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by naughty A
Sure Bob - Just chuck everything in the toilet rather than try to work things out. Can tell why you don't have a long term relationship...

Originally posted by OhioCouple
Oh, how I wish I could use the ignore button, but it is things like this that just gripe my groin....

While reading back through this entire posting, I just wanted to clarify something here. My response to Naughty A's posting was NOT that I disagreed with her. It was because I did AGREE with what she had said. I should have just said a hearty AMEN!!!.

I apologize if that confused anyone, I was just having another Bob123 moment....

Lori

[OhioCouple]

JohnSwings,

It sounds as though you two are well on your way to working this out and that you have set in place some better guidelines to follow, should you attend a club again.

I would suggest that when you do go to another club again that you remain together for the entire time (with the exception of potty breaks) and that you mingle together as a couple, with only other couples.

Of the four clubs that we have attended, only one which allowed single males did we ever have a problem of unwanted advances. In that case I was very uncomfortable and had my husband or the husband of the other couple we were with escort me to the ladies room. (It was pretty bad) As a matter of fact neither men left us ladies alone at any point by ourselves, there was always one of them with us. Generally as long as they were with us, know unwanted advances were initiated.

I would suggest that you stay together and this will decrease the chances tremendously of that happening again. In the event some idiot attempts to paw on your girlfriend, I think a firm "Excuse me, but this is my girlfriend, where is your other half?, We only play with couples." should suffice. If that doesn't work then report him to the management and if they don't toss him out on his ass, then I'd be heading out the door and never returning again. If the idiot happens to be the management....well, I'd be telling him just what I thought about him and how he runs his club, (not so politely) and then I'd head out the door.

Again, I'm happy you were able to work this out!

Lori

[Roxysbayou]

Sounds like you have a good plan. You have certainly learned your lessons, and it's horrible that it all happened that way. I am glad that you were able to work things out. Keep up the communication and you will be fine. Good luck in the future!

[Roxysbayou]

Originally posted by OhioCouple
I apologize if that confused anyone, I was just having another Bob123 moment....
[/b]

Bob has been gone for over a week, I am sure by now he knows how unwelcome he is here. Let's just let him go.

[Brit_Pair]

Congrats to you both for:

1. being able to communicate so well
2. being able to learn from the experience
3. not allowing the experience to deter you from further adventuring

and

4. not allowing the experience to sour your relationship.

Other than that, Lori's advice is sound. Seems like you'll be well prepared for your next club.

[JohnSwings]

This thread (and others throughout the Swingers Board Forum) helped us immensely. Thank you, thank you to everyone who contributed. If not for all this input I guarantee our swinging would have been over. Even worse, our relationship might have been badly damaged. Instead, it strengthened us. Thank you.

And this particular message is to prove that I *can* create a post that is short, has minimal typos, and no references to explicit acts. Hee hee.

A calm but stronger newbie,
John

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by JohnSwings
......and no references to explicit acts. Hee hee.

Ummmm, John, you are on a Swingers Board....we like to be explicit...

Glad it has worked out for you!

Lori

[JustAskJulie]

Originally posted by JohnSwings
This thread (and others throughout the Swingers Board Forum) helped us immensely. Thank you, thank you to everyone who contributed. If not for all this input I guarantee our swinging would have been over. Even worse, our relationship might have been badly damaged. Instead, it strengthened us. Thank you.

And this particular message is to prove that I *can* create a post that is short, has minimal typos, and no references to explicit acts. Hee hee.

A calm but stronger newbie,
John

I'm glad to see that you guys were able to sit down and talk through things, both admitting that you had erred and discuss what could be done in the future to prevent the same things from happening.

Also, thanks for coming back and filling us in on how things are going. I hope you will stick around here and allow the experiences you have to help others. You will be far from the last couple to come here having had a bad experience in one way or another and I'm sure having gone through that, that when the next one comes along you will have some great experienced advice to pass along.

Keep us updated on how things go for you. Also, if you would, be sure to post a review of the club you visited as well as any other clubs you visit in the future. You can do that here

[Ashley]

This whole scenario sounds like my worst nightmare. I have never been to a swing club where there were single men in attendance but I have been to one that was too crowded for my comfort and where a guy grabbed me(who knows where his partner was). Luckily my boyfriend was right by my side and came to my rescue but I can see how something bad could happen if he was occupied elsewhere. We have talked a lot about me setting boundaries about what I'm willing to do or let happen. I think that's important because women are conditioned not to speak up for themselves, to go along, to play nice. At a swing club, you can't just go along....you have to make your own decisions, be accountable for them and stand up for yourself.
This has come into play for me several times over the issue of using condoms. Several times in clubs, men have tried to fuck me without a condom. I just stop them and tell them as loudly as I have to that "no condom equals no sex", that is the agreement between me and my boyfriend and once they've been told, I haven't had to tell them again. So I do think it's important for women to be assertive in a club situation but I also think it's important never to be left alone, especially if there are single men in attendance.

[Brit_Pair]

Originally posted by Ashley
So I do think it's important for women to be assertive in a club situation but I also think it's important never to be left alone, especially if there are single men in attendance.

Assertive, eh? Perhaps one of those sexy little silver-plated Walther automatics, kept in a holster attached to the lady's garter belt!

[EternallySingle]

Originally posted by Ashley
So I do think it's important for women to be assertive in a club situation but I also think it's important never to be left alone, especially if there are single men in attendance.

Ouch, that hurt. Then again, I've run into that same sentiment at bowling alleys and restaraunts. One upscale coffee in Vancouver wouldn't let me and my friend stay because they learned we weren't gay. We did leave because right on the door it said "we have the right to refuse service to anyone." They said we made their patrons uncomfortable because they were afraid we would start hitting on them once we got a couple mocha lattes in us. Its sad when you realize that enough (not a majority, but one or two is enough for some situations) single men act like that that it keeps people from meeting others.

[Ashley]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. It is a shame that one lout can ruin it for the entire respectful single male population. But for a woman not being left alone is more a matter of being prudently cautious than of being afraid.

[JohnSwings]

Originally posted by Ashley
Several times in clubs, men have tried to fuck me without a condom. I just stop them and tell them as loudly as I have to that "no condom equals no sex", that is the agreement between me and my boyfriend and once they've been told, I haven't had to tell them again. So I do think it's important for women to be assertive in a club situation but I also think it's important never to be left alone, especially if there are single men in attendance.

My GF just admitted that one of the single friends of the owners who was wandering the club (the same guy who was grabbing her early on) tried to fuck her without a condom. She grabbed him and pushed him away. She is slowly giving me the whole story about that night.

I naively believed men would be gentlemen at clubs. Obviously, the "trust but verify" philosophy is the only way to go.

John