Nashville clubs go OFF-Premise

[JustAskJulie]

Just reading the Menages Yahoo Group posts and it seems that as of last week they have now gone off-premise until further notice (and so has TSC, according to what is posted there). I'll post more once I can confirm directly what is going on. But from the sounds of it the Mayor is going after all adult venues and in an effort to stay ahead of the curve and give them less to go after the two on-premise clubs have decided to go off-premise.

Here's the letter that was read to the club members last week:

Ladies and Gentlemen and All Members of Menages

On behalf of myself and Gavin I would like to thank you all for coming tonight and for your
continued support and patronage of our establishment. In the last few days it has came to
our attention that certain government officials in the city of Nashville have teamed up with
real estate developers in the interest of taking out and eliminating the presence of what
they feel is immoral and distateful entertainment in the downtown area which includes
afterhours clubs, swing clubs and any and all adult entertainment. This of course, includes
this very establishment itself, menages. However, we are determined to stand by our
rights as a private club and obey and abide by the laws as we have from the day we
opened our doors in September of 2000. What we do here at menages is 100% legal and
within all rights governed by the constituition of the United States. However, in the
interest of being pro-active in this matter to protect our members and our business, a
new set of rules shall come in effect immediately on this day until further notice. And
those rules are ..... 1. no sexual contact is allowed on these premises including vaginal,
oral or anal sex in any shape or form. This rule will be enforced and menages will become
known as an off premise nightclub for consenting adults to meet and gather for
entertainment purposes only. 2. Nudity IS ALLOWED anywhere in the club and nothing will
change from that perspective. 3. All other rules such as no drugs, cameras, weapons or
recording devices shalll remain the same. 4. As usual, no person under the age of 21 will
be permitted and no alcohol shall be sold.
Friends, I realize that some of you will not be affected by this rule, because you come
here for the atmosphere and to meet other like-minded people in an environment that is
safe and free of violence and danger. And others will be upset with this rule. But I ask you
to please understand that we are doing this in an effort to keep the doors open of this
establishment and do whatever it takes to keep our members and business legal and
safe....and we have no choice at this point and it must be done. From day one, Gavin and I
established the concept of menages as a meeting place for friends and consenting adults
to engage in fun and dancing in a private, free-spirited and sexual atmosphere. A place
that is more about the party and the fun without the attitudes and potential hazards at
other nightlclubs. The perfect nightclub and danceclub with a sexual option. ..A place that
is more about the foreplay instead of the money shot...if you will. Thats what we are about
and have been from day one. In a world of automation and impersonal interaction, our
goal as always been bringing the human element back to business though personal service
and interaction with our customers and friends here at menages. We care about each and
every one of you and hope you will understand our decision at this time and continue to
patronize this establishment. And remember, to practice safe sex wherever you may
choose to do so.
Thank you.

[socolais]

That raises a couple of questions:

1. Who's REALLY behind this change and what are their motives? The mayor is aware of costs vs benefits. How does he benefit? The "realestate developers" need a motivation too. Who are the invisible players? Who stands to potentially reap the biggest benefit? By getting to the real source of the motivation (usually money and power), the "victims" can respond to the changes more effectively. Perhaps it's time for some independent investigation.

2. Do clubbies percieve an off premis venu as having a lower desirability? I can see where some customers will take their business elsewhere - and sometimes that can be percieved as something positive by another group of customers. But the business still has to turn a proffit.

3. Is this part of a larger trend?

[knb2004]

And yet another question...

In the letter from the club announcing the change, they stated categorically that what goes on there is legal. Now, I'm no lawyer, and even if I were Tennessee is one of the few states of the union I've never visited, so I don't know the law, but lets presume that is a true statement. Why, then, the need to change the rules?

[JustAskJulie]

I don't know the answers to those questions, other than to tell you that the two clubs in Nashville are pretty much the only on-premise venues that I know of within several states. They get a lot of folks driving in from KY, MS, AL, MO and across TN, so when you take that into consideration. If it those clubs no longer have the distinction of being off-premise there isn't really as much reason to drive so far to go there (when there are local off-premise clubs in all of those areas).

Atmosphere does play a big part and there will still be many who will attend based on that alone... but I think even with that, eventually many will decide that atmosphere alone is not worth the cost (monetary) of going.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by knb2004

And yet another question...

In the letter from the club announcing the change, they stated categorically that what goes on there is legal. Now, I'm no lawyer, and even if I were Tennessee is one of the few states of the union I've never visited, so I don't know the law, but lets presume that is a true statement. Why, then, the need to change the rules?

That thought went through my head as well.

The feeling that I got was that while what they are doing now IS legal, that they are trying to stay ahead of the game and basically policing/restricting themselves in hopes that should the legality change they would be able to stay open with their new set of rules rather than get closed down because of their old set.

That said, I still can't help but wonder if there isn't more going on than is being stated. This is part of why I'm really wanting to find out if it is true that TSC has changed their policy as well.

[JustAskJulie]

The response I just got from Al at TSC is that "nothing has changed" in regards to their status as an on-premise club.....

[knb2004]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

That thought went through my head as well.

The feeling that I got was that while what they are doing now IS legal, that they are trying to stay ahead of the game and basically policing/restricting themselves in hopes that should the legality change they would be able to stay open with their new set of rules rather than get closed down because of their old set.

That said, I still can't help but wonder if there isn't more going on than is being stated. This is part of why I'm really wanting to find out if it is true that TSC has changed their policy as well.

Well, perhaps there's more going on here than meets the eye, or perhaps the club owners are being overly cautious. If on-premise activities are currently legal, and if a law change comes about that makes them illegal, they cannot be prosecuted for what happened before. It's called ex-post-facto, and is enshrined in our beloved constitution.

[socolais]

That reminds me of an old story - when a bear is chasing the hunting party, you don't necessarily need to outrun the bear, just the other members of the party....

[VegasLee]

Something to remember when fighting the government in this country.

Even though we have a constitution and even if you follow it, the government can still bring charges on you and make you fight to prove that you have the right per the constitution.

ANY TIME you get in a fight with the government it is VERY EXPENSIVE and takes years to win or lose when it comes to fighting for your rights in the constitution.

Sometimes many will try to second guess the actions and motives of a club owner when these fights start. The owners not only try to look out for the fun and pleasure of the members but they also have to look out for their own well being.

We have also found that MOST attorneys can not take on these fights when it comes to defending your rights within the constitution. There are very few that know how to battle a constitutional challenge.

Until you have had the pleasure of standing in an open court room in Front of a Federal judge to defend your constitutional rights you will never understand what is involved. I can promise you that much.

Shall be interesting how this turns out. Many club owners are not set to take on a major constitutional fight and I can understand when they change things to try to make this all go away. There are very few people in this country willing to give up all they have worked for their whole life to fight a fight like this. Even when you win, you lose. You can NOT recoup the loses and money spent when involved in a fight like this.

Been there, done that and it not near as much fun as it sounds like.

[good times]

Sad, but unfortunately, I think it is a sign of a coming trend. One of our local clubs has had to change how they do business, although they are still on premise. A lot of this has to do with the reality that swing club opponents are getting much more organized. In my role of helping our local club when they came under some official scrutiny lately, I came across a legal brief that was prepared with the sole intent of instructing legal teams in how to close swing clubs down. It is interesting reading, a lot of the ways that many clubs do business will have to be changed if they are to survive.

A good example is that I suspect that the clubs who require a donation are going to be a thing of the past. If this legal brief is accurate, case law supports the contention that if a donation is "required" to attend, it is not a donation, it is an entrance fee or cover charge. The importance of this is that it changes the rules under which these clubs operate. As soon as their so called donation is determined to be an entrance fee, they are no longer a private party, and instead are a night club, which in most locals has a whole new set of rules governing their operation, usually including a ban on sex and nudity.

One of the things I have been thinking about lately is the possibility that the TV show Swingtown, making more of the general population aware of swinging, will have a negative impact on swinging and more specifically local swingers clubs. I got to thinking about this the other day around some of my vanilla friends. It occurred to me that if they watched the show it would not be hard to put together, based on the things we do in our daily life that are similar to the shows characters, that we may be swingers. That thought has already changed some of the ways I interact with my vanilla friends in subtle ways.

[mosmis84]

I had a moment or two of panic when I read here that TSC had gone off-premise. I checked the yahoo board for TSC and there was some talk of taming down things in the public areas (no below the waist nudity) but the private rooms were still available. But then the word was that Metro (Nashville government) was cracking down on the big "ADULT" signs of some of the local businesses (which should not be an issue for TSC, I don't know about Menage's).

I did learn a lot about the Metro Sexually Oriented Business Board (SOB for short). There has been discussions about the crack down on stripper clubs (dancers cannot be within 3 feet of customers) while there is nothing they can do about the swinger clubs. Maybe I will venture to one of the Board Meetings and become more educated.

Interesting article:
Nashville Scene - Why Lap Dances In Nashville Are Illegal But Group Sex Isn't

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by mosmis84

I had a moment or two of panic when I read here that TSC had gone off-premise. I checked the yahoo board for TSC and there was some talk of taming down things in the public areas (no below the waist nudity) but the private rooms were still available. But then the word was that Metro (Nashville government) was cracking down on the big "ADULT" signs of some of the local businesses (which should not be an issue for TSC, I don't know about Menage's).

I did learn a lot about the Metro Sexually Oriented Business Board (SOB for short). There has been discussions about the crack down on stripper clubs (dancers cannot be within 3 feet of customers) while there is nothing they can do about the swinger clubs. Maybe I will venture to one of the Board Meetings and become more educated.

Interesting article:
Nashville Scene - Why Lap Dances In Nashville Are Illegal But Group Sex Isn't

I remember that article from last year and thought it was pretty interesting.

I'm not a member of the TSC Yahoo Group and didn't have time to go hunt it down, so I just emailed Al, his response was that "nothing had changed" at TSC, however from the sounds of it perhaps things have changed A BIT at TSC, just not quite as much as they have at Menages.

When I got Al's response I couldn't help but wonder.... was Menages lying about TSC following the same POA in order to do damage control against members potentially leaving and going to TSC where on-premise is still game? Or was TSC just not putting the word out publicly to do their own damage control against people deciding not to visit because of the change?

[mosmis84]

I don't know, tell me what a great community service I would be doing and I'll see if I can get laid on premise this weekend!

I was planning on doing some work but if you need me to investigate, I will!

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by mosmis84

I don't know, tell me what a great community service I would be doing and I'll see if I can get laid on premise this weekend!

I was planning on doing some work but if you need me to investigate, I will!

I'm sure you could probably still get laid on-premise at either one if you are sneaky enough. I do wonder what they are saying at the door at TSC tho, and if it's the same.

[Chicup]

Vegas nailed it.

We had a club in Illinois which fought and won a bogus fire code charge, and the DA said they will keep bringing up these kind of charges and raiding the club, putting peoples names in the paper until it shuts down.

Pretty much, the law be damned.