Fairness question...open marriage

[CallMeLoki]

To make a long story short...my wife and I considered swinging as a couple, my wife felt more comfortable "swinging" alone, ie. having more of an "open marriage". It was a bit of a stretch for me, but I said "OK, as long as we keep it all fair to each other." She's already had her first encounter with her cyber-BF, I'm still working to have my first encounter. (And yes, I know the open marriage approach works against me as far as sex goes, but works for me in terms of relationships with women....there's exposure on both sides, and I realize that.) She has lined up her second encounter already.

Tonight we had an argument because she felt like I implied she'd already had an encounter to the female friend that I was pursuing (she's already discussed this female friend with her cyber-BF), and I told her that she needs to just cancel this second encounter until I've had my first. (I won't tell you what she said to that, but it was actually quite hurtful to me.) So, is this fair? In "conventional" swinging, you obviously don't have these kinds of issues...either you both play or neither play. We agreed in writing to be totally fair to each other and help each other line up encounters. She IS working to help me. I originally said "yes, go ahead with the 2nd encounter" because I truly want her to enjoy this and get what she wants and needs out of it, and I saw her working for me too. Now I'm questioning whether that was a good decision after her response to me about telling her I think she should cancel her 2nd encounter.

Here's my main question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me, or no?

Post your thoughts please.

Thanks,
Loki

[Chicup]

Loki I feel you are a tragedy in the making.

Let me give you a personal anecdote to maybe show how this sort of thing should work.

A few years ago we had a local couple we were very good friends with as well as swingers with. We had sex with them on multiple occasions and everyone was very comfortable. We knew and still know them very well to say the least, even met their parents on occasion.

Well back when we were still new to swinging, I had had a MFM with them with my wifes permission when she was out of town, in fact on the other side of the planet.

I had one or two threesomes with them after that when I happened to be over at their place but each time I had to CALL her at home to get her permission. Was it fair or did it make any logical sense? Hell no, but it was her call because her comfort level was what was important. Once when I called she just wasn't comfortable with it and we didn't do anything. She didn't feel it was right for me to play alone if she was in town, she felt left out, and the important thing is we all honored that without hard feelings or going behind her back which we could have easily done.

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. Its visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, its icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

[sexcupid]

Loki,

Here's the deal...even in 'traditional' swinging, there are still couples that try to only swing with one half of a couple or that go to events/parties that whatever happens is all ok. At that party perhaps the wife has sex with 5 guys and her hubby either doesn't play at all or has less partners (hypothetical situation...but we've seen couples that do party this way...the wife is getting laid by 3-5 guys and the hubby is either just socializing or only plays with 1 or 2 other ladies).

It's whatever you are comfortable with. To hell with 'fair'. That is subjective depending on who's perspective you are looking at it from (you think it's fair to ask her to postpone...and she doesn't). For the most part, we like to keep things on an even playing field...like a tit for tat kind of thing. Why? Because it keeps that sense of fairness/eveness there. That's just us.

Good luck!

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

To make a long story short...my wife and I considered swinging as a couple, my wife felt more comfortable "swinging" alone, ie. having more of an "open marriage". {snip}

Here's my main question: Is it fair for me to ask her to wait for me, or no?

Post your thoughts please.

Thanks,
Loki

Hmm... there is a lot to chew on here. The previous poster is right in that every couple should do what makes them BOTH feel comfortable. I cannot possibly know what your relationship is like, but I cannot help but wonder why your wife is more comfortable "swinging" without you. There could be a problem lurking there, especially given that she said something hurtful to you when you tried to get her to hold back in the name of fairness.

I wonder why you think swinging alone would help you in your relationships with other women. As a swinging wife, I like a man much better when I see that his relationship with his wife is solid and loving. I feel much more comfortable developing a friendship with a playmate who is in a strong marriage that I can see. And not least, like many swinging wives, men swinging without partners are more or less off-limits to me, because Mr. Fuse and I swing together. Those are two big strikes against you in your situation. Can you describe what the advantages are?

And about whether you are being "fair"... well... as I mentioned above, I personally think that is not quite the right question, because "counting" can get really technical. Mr. Fuse and I have had many a discussion about this subject, especially when we first started swinging. Women get many more chances to play than men, in general, and Mr. Fuse didn't want me to leave him behind. It would have been very easy for me to do that, if he hadn't been careful about it. And at times I resented not being able to do things I wanted to do. But for us, it is better to stay together and make swinging a joint activity except for the occasional time.

In my opinion, the answer is: If you feel like she is taking advantage of the situation or trying to do too much while you are not getting to do enough, then you are right for asking her to put the brakes on. From the discomfort you expressed, it sounds like you are past that threshold.

[it'sso]

My opinion? If she is swinging alone and getting it, and you are swinging alone and not getting it, then there is different label used to describe your relationship.

[Playful1]

Ah, keeping count....never been a good idea in my experience.

It's one thing to discuss your concerns (without making accusations or demands) and a whole 'nother thing to tell someone they can't/shouldn't/etc do something until you can do it.

If you're not comfortable with doing things separately, because of the difference in how often you will play (let me tell you, you will never get as many offers as she will), then you need to discuss that, and maybe try something like swinging, but in separate rooms or something.

This sounds like it will blow up in your face soon otherwise. It's not fair of you to dictate how often she gets to go play based on how often you do...just as it's not fair of her to ignore your concerns.

[wlhotwife]

Wow, Loki...what a can of worms.
I think the only way you can have "fairness and equality" in an open marriage is if you look at it over the long term. There are going to be situations like this where one of you is getting more action than the other for some period of time. Trying to keep the score even over the short term is going to prove to be a hassle and a source of conflict between you two.
Could you look at the issue in a different way perhaps, appreciating that your wife is growing and exploring her sexuality, and knowing that things may never be completely even as far as number of partners, experiences, etc.? If that is making a positive impact on your relationship, then who cares about the numbers and timing?

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by The Fuse

I wonder why you think swinging alone would help you in your relationships with other women.

I'm sorry, I didn't state what I meant very clearly. It's very easy for women to find sex only from men (that's what most men are looking for)...it's very easy for men to find relationships with women (that's what most women are looking for). By having an "open marriage", there's exposure for both of us...the exposure for me is that she can have encounters more frequently or with more different partners that I could simply because she's a woman, and that could grow into more if she let it. The exposure for her is that I'll form friendships and sexual relationships with women that could easily grow into more if I let it, simply because I'm a man. That's what I meant...I see the exposure to each of us as pretty much equal. I might be wrong, but I know she has no problem getting sex and I have no problem forming friendships with women (some of whom will want or be open to recreational sex).

Loki

[LikeMinds321]

From reading all your posts on the Board, what stands out most is that you and your wife can't have read much on here about swinging or open marriages (read the Poly forum to get a feel for the transition swinging can take to poly or to very close "relationships" that can develop from swinging that crosses over to poly).

It seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions about what you and your wife have already delved into without knowing much beforehand. That's dangerous for a marriage.

So many experienced swingers, and some members who are in open marriages and poly relationships have advised you, yet, you don't seem to be hearing what they have to say.

I think you are blinded by what you want and are still thinking with your penis. Your head so badly wants to match what your penis desires that you are trying to justify your reasoning.

If your wife is willing to wait to play again only after you do, she may be waiting six months, a year...or more. That's how it can go.

LM

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

I think you are blinded by what you want and are still thinking with your penis. Your head so badly wants to match what your penis desires that you are trying to justify your reasoning.
LM

I'm thinking with my heart, thank you very much. When my wife said she'd rather play alone than together (at least this first time), I thought it over, considered her reasons, and said "OK." My original intention was that we play together, but I stretched for her because I wanted her to be happy and get what she wanted and needed out of it. How is that thinking with my dick?

Loki

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I'm thinking with my heart, thank you very much. When my wife said she'd rather play alone than together (at least this first time), I thought it over, considered her reasons, and said "OK." My original intention was that we play together, but I stretched for her because I wanted her to be happy and get what she wanted and needed out of it. How is that thinking with my dick?

Loki

But can't you admit that your ultimate goal - and the reason you "stretched" for your wife - was because in the end you'd get your penis satisfied through a sexual encounter with a woman?

People don't start looking for sexual relationships outside of marriage because of what their heart tells them, they do it because of the desire to experience sex with others. The heart comes into play to balance the whole process. And then our head works to make good decisions despite what our penis/vagina wants.

How many threads have you and your wife read on the Board? Have you discussed those threads with each other? Read 100 and you'll only have had a nice appetizer. Read 500 and you may see your situation much differently than you do right now.

LM

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I'm sorry, I didn't state what I meant very clearly. It's very easy for women to find sex only from men (that's what most men are looking for)...it's very easy for men to find relationships with women (that's what most women are looking for). By having an "open marriage", there's exposure for both of us...the exposure for me is that she can have encounters more frequently or with more different partners that I could simply because she's a woman, and that could grow into more if she let it. The exposure for her is that I'll form friendships and sexual relationships with women that could easily grow into more if I let it, simply because I'm a man. That's what I meant...I see the exposure to each of us as pretty much equal. I might be wrong, but I know she has no problem getting sex and I have no problem forming friendships with women (some of whom will want or be open to recreational sex).

Loki

Wow, my head is spinning just a little. Bear with me... I'll just look at your avatar for a moment. Damn, that's hot.

I would love to hear from Sif on this thread, to get her perspective. I'm sure she would have a lot to tell us.

More questions.... If she has no problem getting sex, which I'm sure is true from your Swing Lifestyle picture, then why does she feel the need to increase her odds even more by going out without you? This doesn't make sense to me, so I'm thinking there is something else at work here. She would still not have any problem if you two were to swing as a couple. Then, things would be much more likely to be "fair" because you'd be doing it together. She'd get more because your chances would also increase. If she is really interested in being "fair", then she would increase her own chances by seeking couples with you. Help her... help you .

If she is still interested in branching out on her own, well gee, that could be exciting. I would suggest that if one of your female friends outside swinging wanted to take it further, then perhaps *after* you do something with one of them, then she could arrange another solo encounter for herself. But since it is SOOOOO much harder for men swinging alone to "close the deal", perhaps you ought to arrange it so that you go first. LikeMinds321 is right. It is VERY difficult for a single man to hook up. It can take a very long time.

As to you finding relationships because "that's what most women want"... whoa. I've got to back up here... whew... You seem to be coming from a place where you are really very focused on what your wife wants, and what other women want (or what you think they want). It's really very sweet. However, I think you are somewhat blinded, maybe not by your cock, but by your perceptions. And if you are not careful, these perceptions can get you and your marriage in a lot of trouble. I may seem harsh, but honestly you seem very nice (as well as very hot ) and like you are bending over backwards. So I hope what we are all saying to you, including me, helps you even if you don't like me for it. Okay... so as far as relationships being what women want, here goes. In swinging, most women are married and have a relationship already. In swinging they want sex and light friendship, not relationships that go very deep at all. For instance, your wife. I'm assuming she does not want a relationship outside your marriage. Why should other wives be different? (So that's one whole group painted with a broad brush. Onward...)

Outside of swinging, where I'm assuming your potential encounters come from, most women want relationships, but in the end they don't want to share. They want their own. Down that road, trouble lies. Single women swingers probably fall in this category too. They might just be having fun, but eventually they do want a relationship. If you form one with one of them, they might like it a little too much.

So if you are really after sex, and some light friendship, not a relationship outside your marriage, (are you??), then I think your best bet is to stick with swingers. If you are looking for a relationship outside your marriage, then you are poly. That is a whole new subject and it becomes infinitely more complicated, especially if your wife is not part of it, in which case it becomes destructive to your marriage.

Oh and one more thing -- the "relative exposure" train of thought is strange. (Is one of you a lawyer? That plus the whole "agreed in writing" thing...) It might help to think about what each of you gains from an agreement rather than what risks it exposes each of you to.

I hope some of this makes sense. I really hope that you and your wife can both slow down and not do or say anything irrevokable before you can agree on something that makes you both comfortable.

[2inSanDiego4u]

Loki, after reading your other thread (wow, that was a long read!) and this one as well, here is our take on your situation:

Slow things down, a lot. It does not sound like you are both on the same page any more. If she is getting mad that you don't want her to proceed, that is as clear a sign as any that you need to slow down and re-evaluate things. Maybe this type of open/poly arrangement is not going to work for you guys. Maybe some discussion about traditional swinging with couples is in order. That tends to keep things on an even keel. There are many directions which this can take, but you both need to stop and re-think everything, and keep the communications open between the two of you as well.

On a final note, your latest posts have us thinking like Chicup, that things are headed to a bad place for the two of you. Hopefully that is not the case.

[socolais]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Loki I feel you are a tragedy in the making.

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. Its visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, its icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

Once again Chicup cuts through the crap and makes it look easy. From my perspective, the game you guys are playing is not swinging. If it all works for both of you and makes yall happy then more power to you. But it sounds like things are not quite working to everyone's satisfaction.

It's so easy to be confused by the appeal of swinging. And it's amazing how my personal perceptions changed after WE got involved. It's all about US as a couple and it's not about either one of us getting some wild nookie on the side.

Here's an idea: try some encounter TOGETHER. You've started down a valid path separately and encountered some friction. Take a break and look around for an easier path. The togetherness thing may or may not work for yall - but it's a well worn path that's at least worth some serious consideration....

[rpu3]

This isn't about logic, fairness, or anything like this. Its visceral and emotional, and you always keep your SO happy first and when I say that, it doesn't mean you let her go play with a boy toy to make her happy, and you unhappy, what it means is she doesn't do things which will make you hurt inside. Getting to have extramarital sex is a bonus, its icing on the cake, but you don't ignore the cake.

As one in an open marriage, this sums up our priorities in our relationship quite well.

ETA: We've not required an even playing field. My spouse is definitely not interested in score keeping or forcing an even playing field - it is what it is and he doesn't want or need a quid pro quo arrangement. Fairness is a worthwhile goal in any relationship, but sometimes things don't work exactly the way we want it to. So we don't keep a tally of who did what and for how long.

If the outside relationships/activities somehow began to have a negative impact on either my spouse or our marriage, or if there's now score keeping and negative feelings based on the count, then obviously there's going to be a lot of talking and reevaluation between my spouse and I. If one is unhappy, then the gig is up for the time being. Our relationship is the priority.