HIV and social/sexual clubs

[PaulKing]

AN ACTUARIAL ANALYSIS OF THE AIDS EPIDEMIC IN THE U.S.

By Peter Plumley

Presented at the 75th Annual Meeting of the Pacific Division of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, San Francisco State University, San Francisco, California.

HIV and social/sexual clubs

Another group with multiple sexual partners are the members of social/sexual clubs, commonly known as "swingers". Swingers engage in recreational sexual activity with multiple partners. In many cases, these sexual partners were strangers when the evening began. There are more than 200 swingers clubs in the U.S. and Canada, with a membership totalling perhaps 100,000, according to one magazine report. Swingers generally do not use condoms. Therefore they provide in effect a made-to-order laboratory for the study of transmission of HIV through multiple sexual partnerships and unprotected sex. If in fact the swinging lifestyle did present an "increased risk" of HIV infection, by now there would have been many cases of HIV and AIDS among the various swing clubs (or, more likely, the clubs would have closed up because of the unacceptability of the high risk).

However, there has been only one reported episode of HIV infection among members of a swingers club. It involved anal rather than vaginal sex, and was reported by the CDC. In this instance, which occurred in 1986, all of the members of a swingers club were tested, and two female members were found to be HIV-positive. Both had engaged in repeated anal intercourse with two bisexual men whose HIV status could not be determined. As will be seen later in this paper, receptive anal intercourse appears to involve much higher risk levels than penile-vaginal sex. Presumably they became infected from the anal sex, rather than from vaginal sexual activity. They did not infect any of their male sexual partners, even though their HIV status was not detected until some time after their infection occurred, during which time they continued their sexual activity with various other partners.

A recent article in Penthouse magazine titled "Swinging Swings Back" described the resurgence of swinging. As might be expected, the article included some "hand wringing" about the risks of AIDS being taken by these people, including a quote from a representative of the CDC that swingers were "just whistling past the graveyard".

Yet the facts are to the contrary. Robert McGinley, President of the North American Swing Club Association, is quoted in the Penthouse article as stating categorically that "as far as we can tell, no person has ever contracted AIDS through heterosexual [i.e., penile-vaginal] swinging in North America". His statement appears to be correct. This author has been unable to find any data which contradicts his statement or suggests anything to the contrary.

[PaulKing]

SOURCE - CDC
(only HIV not found to be sexually transmitted)

The Adult Industry Medical HealthCare Foundation, an industry-backed clinic in Sherman Oaks, administered voluntary tests to a group consisting primarily of adult film workers. Of 483 people tested between October 2001 and March 2002, about 40 percent had at least one disease. Nearly 17 percent tested positive for chlamydia, 13 percent for gonorrhea and 10 percent for hepatitis B and C, according to Sharon Mitchell, a former adult actress who founded AIM. None of the tests came up positive for HIV, Mitchell said.

thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/2003/jan17_03/adult_film_hiv.html

[windsor4fun2]

Originally posted by PaulKing
Swingers generally do not use condoms.

I don't know about the other information in the report but this has definitely not been my experience. Our experience has been the exact opposite of this statement. Most if not all people we know in the lifestyle insist on condom use.

Jesse

[outofcontrol]

Ive been to clubs and have seen people not take any precaution at all. two weeks ago I watched a wife get her face covered in cum by 25 guys. She didnt think about it once, now week later she is frightened out of her mind. I think swingers for the most part watch what their doing,but for some reason the rest of the swingers dont think they can get STD's or dont believe HIV even is Sexual transmitted for some reason.

[PaulKing]

Dear Outof Control,

They have good reason to think that: -


Is HIV a Sexually-Transmitted Virus?
New Studies Raise Questions, Particularly in Africa
by Liam Scheff, The Weekly Dig (Boston)

A new African AIDS study seriously challenges the widely accepted hypothesis
that HIV is a sexually transmitted virus. The study, by Dr. David
Gisselquist, et al, appeared in the International Journal of STD & AIDS, a
peer-reviewed journal published by Britain's Royal Society of Medicine.
According to Gisselquist, "The idea that sex explains 90% of African HIV
just doesn't fit the facts. We need to take a look at the alternate
explanations, in particular, healthcare transmissions, which seem to fit a
lot of facts," he told Reuters. Among the study's revelations: Sexual
practices in areas with the highest rates of infection were no different
than in those with low rates of infection; infants of HIV-negative mothers
tested positive for HIV, as did individuals with no sexual exposure; and
heterosexual couples were no more likely to transmit the virus to each other
than their European and American counterparts. Gisselquist maintains that
contaminated needle injections and other unsafe medical practices could be
the cause.

But Dr. Chris Ouma, head of the charity ActionAid Kenya1s health programs,
disagrees. 'The idea that dirty needles or blood transfusions are the main
route for HIV transmission in Africa today flies in the face of experience
on the ground. In Kenya, medical procedures have largely been made safe but
still HIV infections continue to rise." Surveys of sexual behavior in Africa
show patterns nearly identical to North America and Europe where HIV
infection rates are much lower, but clean water, food and basic medical care
are widely available.

This isn1t the first study to challenge the hypothesis that HIV is sexually
transmitted. The 10-year Padian study (1997) observed sexually active
couples in which one partner was HIV positive. The result: in 10 years, not
one uninfected partner contracted HIV, even though all participants admitted
to having sex without condoms. The study states, 'We followed up 175
HIV-discordant couples over time, for a total of approximately 282
couple-years of follow up. The longest duration of follow-up was 12 visits
(6 years). We observed no seroconversion [infection] after entry into the
study." In the three-year Stewart study (1985) not one male partner of
HIV-positive women contracted HIV. Prostitution is not even listed as an HIV
risk category by the CDC, because of the extremely low incidence of HIV
transmission to clients who have no other risk factors (i.e. drug abuse).

These findings bolster the hypothesis of some AIDS scientists that chronic
malnutrition and other environmental factors, and not a sexually-transmitted
virus, are the causes of weakened immunity in people diagnosed with one of
the nearly 30 AIDS-defining diseases (which vary from country to country).

[outofcontrol]

LOL...Ok.

[funcpl6904]

We are new to the board, but not to the lifestyle. We always use condoms and if people don't want to use them then we don't play! I believe if you want to be safe you take precautions. You can't just accept that everyone is as clean as you. It is your health and you parterns health you have to look out for, and the other people that you play with.

[highlander]

The other odd thing here:
AIDS is not especially highly corelated with other STD's if you look at a state by state breakdown(and other STD's are highly correlated to the presence of each other).

That said, I still don't get why more folks don't use testing to screen their partners-especiallyif they don't want to use condoms. Neither condoms or testing is perfect-but dont should reduce risk.

Originally Posted by PaulKing

Dear Outof Control,

They have good reason to think that:

As newcomer to the scene, I was particularly keen to read the advice on this forum regarding safe sex. While I fully intend to keep myself and my partners as safe as possible (though I don't want to give up the swinging scene to achieve this!), I was a bit concerned that simply wearing a condom wouldn't be enough. I really like to give oral sex to women but REALLY think that any kind of barrier would be a total turn-off to both parties.

So, first question:

Q1/ Have any of you used a barrier and enjoyed it? Is this a practical method?

Second question: I read the very interesting previous postings regarding some professional doubt about the mechanism of passing HIV by hetro-sexual intercourse. Also that there had only been 1 reported case of HIV being contracted by swingers in NA (through hetrosexual intercourse).This posting was some time ago and views may well have changed. What I'd like to know (and it may seem a bit forward to ask this but I feel that some form of survey could be useful to everyone).

Q2/ How many people in the swinging lifestyle know or know of someone who has contracted HIV/AIDS?

Hope you're not offended by my asking but I really think it could put our (valid) concerns into some sort of context - especially if there are some areas of our activity (such as cunnilingus) where we are not taking precautions.

Regards,
Derek

[highlander]

Originally Posted by itsgottabefun

As newcomer to the scene, I was particularly keen to read the advice on this forum regarding safe sex. While I fully intend to keep myself and my partners as safe as possible (though I don't want to give up the swinging scene to achieve this!), I was a bit concerned that simply wearing a condom wouldn't be enough. I really like to give oral sex to women but REALLY think that any kind of barrier would be a total turn-off to both parties.
................
Q2/ How many people in the swinging lifestyle know or know of someone who has contracted HIV/AIDS?

I question how many folks that become HIV+ would be known by others in the swing scene as such. I think most folks that become HIV+ either 1) are ignorant of that fact for some time because they don't bother getting tested 2) when they finally do wake up to their status are either not really active any more or just keep quiet about it. That said, I think the number is pretty small. Of the 20,000 folks per year that become HIV+, most of them are still younger folks that are men having sex with men, IV drug users, folks concentrated in a few urban areas. Even if swingers have more than their share of the rest, it is a pretty small number-and probably in pockets.

What I would suggest here: you should really look into testing as a supplement to condoms. Oral sex is safer than some activities. Testing can non-invasively reduce the risk of that even further (by at least 95% per encounter). You can get tests mail order that can be conducted in your home in front of you. Better tests are coming on line soon(but those will require a doctor visit). The down side on this is that folks aren't used to testing-and it scares some of them.

I don't know of any clubs that regularly use a testing procedure-I've seen folks that would advertise for folks willing to exchange test results.

[bbwinpa]

to the folks who said: "We always use condoms and if people don't want to use them then we don't play! I believe if you want to be safe you take precautions. You can't just accept that everyone is as clean as you. It is your health and you parterns health you have to look out for, and the other people that you play with."

I soooo agree with this!!!

Let's face it folks, the amount of info that the 'experts' don't know about HIV/AIDS ... STILL after all these years is scary. And what they do continue to find out changes the 'rules' so to speak about how to be practicing safe sex. But the ONE thing everyone knows is that HIV/AIDS is fatal and incurable, and it is a really horrible way to die.

It is worth being as careful as possible. Right now that means condoms for me. It also means that I am careful and very selective, and I generally do not go to clubs.

But this is an issue that everyone must THINK about, and make their own decision on. AND then they must be honest with their partners about the decisions and sex practices they have made for themselves so that their partners can then decide what they are going to do. This is one of the reasons I don't go to clubs, most folks are not there to 'communicate' this type of info cause it might mean that they won't be 'lucky' that night.

OK, done preaching now! lol

[highlander]

Originally Posted by PaulKing

Nearly 17 percent tested positive for chlamydia, 13 percent for gonorrhea and 10 percent for hepatitis B and C, according to Sharon Mitchell, a former adult actress who founded AIM. None of the tests came up positive for HIV, Mitchell said.

thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/2003/jan17_03/adult_film_hiv.html

What I wonder here:
is it that folks in the industry are routinely testing for AIDS-but not for these others?