I have just finished the largest study on swinging, STDs, and Safe Sex.

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by drziggy

Of course, there are always 'close" groups that require testing on an on-going basis.

.

As DrZiggy can attest, that "testing" is good for the moment the test is taken and means nothing later.

There is a "group" for years that attended the club. That "group" only plays together, about ten of them. They would not allow anyone else into the group unless they "Saw test results" within the last fifteen days. Funny thing, that group has "caught" something four times in the last four years. When they do they all stay away from the club and each other. Mad at each other but then get back together again. Seems their "closed" group is not working out to well over the years yet they swear by it.

A few years back I started a thread here that went something like "Is Swinging worth your life" and much of this was discussed. Funny part was I got a fair amount of "hate mail" from some that said I was to blunt and it should not have been brought to light. I also had one couple get out of the lifestyle because they finally "saw the light" and felt it was not worth the chances.

We have been in the Lifestyle for over Thirty Years. Have never caught anything more than a cold. We have been very, very lucky to say the least.

It can happen though. We have seen it with others.

No reason to go running for the hills but at the same time don't hide from the facts that something can happen to you. You can also get hit by a bus while sitting at a bus stop.

You have to make choices in life that you are comfortable with and you can live with.

I am sure DrZiggy did not post this to scare anyone and I don't try to scare anyone. Most of you that have known me for years know I am not going to paint a pretty picture for you. I would much rather you live in the real world and know the facts.


Enjoy life and do what works for you. That is all that really matters at the end.

[CXXC]

Hey Doc!

Thanks for the info! I fully understand your analogy! Like seatbelts, we are just as vigilant with condom usage. Partners are questioned and safety measures are incorporated at all times.

My reaction is not so much hysteria as it is a shocking revelation. the realization that, no matter what precautions you take, you still may contract something is simply remarkable and needs to be considered. We truly never did entertain this fact before, as we believed through the safety precautions we utilize, we would be protected.

Certainly, the more active you are the more your odds increase. We are no strangers to danger. In fact, we partake is several activities considered to be some of the most life threatening in the world. Cave diving, Motorcycles, small air craft.... just a few of our hobbies. We take every safety precaution to minimize the chances of injury or death. That being said, we go into each activity knowing the dangers and are prepared for them through training and safe practices. It is all on us and only us.

The lifestyle, however, is not all on us. It is based upon the actions of others. One individual, through ignorance or malice can ruin the lives of many.

So, we are forced to sit back and take stock. We must take an inventory of the pleasure Vs damage here. I am certain we will choose pleasure. However, this struck a chord and as that chord is still vibrating, our minds are uneasy for this moment! Tomorrow may well be a completely different story.

[Chicup]

Imagine you were immortal, as in you wouldn't age, but still mortal when it came to injury, as in you could be killed.

Now imagine you flew regularly.

The odds of a normal person dying in a plane crash is very small, in their life time.

The odds of the immortal dying in a plane crash is close to 100%, sooner or later the plane WILL crash.

Part of our risk aversion in life is based on the fact that we DON'T live forever. We take risks based on the fact that the risks are small and the odds are they won't kill us in our life time.

Now personally I think the STD rates are going to be higher in reality than what was surveyed, surveys are only so good, people do tend to lie about such things 'just in case', and some people honestly don't know as well.

If you swing long enough, even with condoms, you will get an STD eventually. Now most of those STD's are not going to be fatal, and most of them will be 100% curable. Herpes being a notable exception.

So there comes the risk.

[Unsub]

I feel I need to interject my opinions here and tell my story. As a regular on this board I wish to remain unidentified from those I know here. We have been swinging for a few years now, had 14 partners, and used condoms. I found a suspicious bump and went to the Dr and she dismissed it. Went to my obgyn. The bump was so small she couldn’t determine what it was so she cut if off in the office (yes cut if off, and that hurt like a bitch) and sent it off. I was called a week later with the results of HPV genital warts. I suspected it deep down and there with that call was my answer. I am not angry really, somewhat disappointed that a disease stopped my swinging verses it being just my own decision. It was a risk we were fully aware of so there was no surprise. I am not angry with whom I may have gotten it from. Most likely he has no clue he is a carrier. I am seeking treatment (Aldara 5% cream) for the few little bumps I have, I am glad I found it early, before they got big and ugly….

Dr Ziggy The chances of getting an STD is very, very low, albeit there's always a chance. Using condoms minimizes the risk even further (condoms are, contrary to distorted reports, about 98% safe... together with other safe sex practices).

I will have to disagree with this percentage. 98% for pregnancy maybe. But its not that high for STD’s. Here is an example of just one study:

“condoms reduce the risk of HIV transmission by about 85%.4 Condom effectiveness against transmission of bacterial diseases like gonorrhea, chlamydia and syphilis is significantly lower than for HIV.2 Conclusive evidence is lacking for condom effectiveness against transmission of several other specific STIs, such as HPV and trichomoniasis, which each affect over 5 million people annually.2 Finally effectiveness is seriously limited for the many STIs which are transmitted through skin-to-skin contact, since condoms do not cover all the areas of the body which may be the source of transmission.”
How effective are condoms in preventing STIs?

Chicup HPV and Herpes you need to mentally assume you will get while swinging sooner or later, and be glad if you don't, especially HPV, its just too common.

I agree with Chicup on this. For one it is too common and second if you think you wont then you are only fooling yourself. However you may never get it.

Vegas Lee We have been in the Lifestyle for over Thirty Years. Have never caught anything more than a cold. We have been very, very lucky to say the least.

Vegas Lee, you are indeed very lucky. However, the span of 30 years in of itself really doesn’t mean much. How many partners in the span is more relevant. And no I don’t want to know the answer, just pointing out a little or a lot of playmates can swing by in 30 years time… Also, for males, there is no test for HPV, you could very well be a carrier and never ever know it. For you sake, I hope not.

Cxxc In our naiveté, we went ahead, playing Russian Roulette, with the belief that those we play with would be responsible and ensure the safety and well being of, not only themselves, but those they play with. Again, the chamber spins. To date, we have landed upon an empty cylinder. By dodging the bullet once more, we increase our odds of contracting something. Now, having made it this far in the game, I find we are hesitant to pull that trigger again!

CXXC, yes I think your doing everything with in your power to be safe, but your are naïve if you think your current thoughts and practices are going to keep you std free. We too played Russian Roulette and we or I got the bullet. Condoms will only lesson the risk, but I too used condoms and still got HPV genital warts.

Here are some info tid bits that I think all should consider. I have included the links at the bottom so you all can read the info in full.

CDC web site: There are two primary ways that STDs are transmitted. Some diseases, such as HIV infection, gonorrhea, chlamydia, and trichomoniasis, are transmitted when infected urethral or vaginal secretions contact mucosal surfaces (such as the male urethra, the vagina, or cervix). In contrast, genital ulcer diseases (such as genital herpes, syphilis, and chancroid) and human papillomavirus (HPV) infection are primarily transmitted through contact with infected skin or mucosal surfaces.A greater level of protection is provided for the diseases transmitted by genital secretions. A lesser degree of protection is provided for genital ulcer diseases or HPV because these infections also may be transmitted by exposure to areas (e.g., infected skin or mucosal surfaces) that are not covered or protected by the condom.
Genital ulcer diseases and HPV infections can occur in both male and female genital areas that are covered or protected by a latex condom, as well as in areas that are not covered. Consistent and correct use of latex condoms reduces the risk of genital herpes, syphilis, and chancroid only when the infected area or site of potential exposure is protected. Condom use may reduce the risk for HPV infection and HPV-associated diseases (e.g., genital warts and cervical cancer).

From Ashastd.org: The net result is that very few people ever have the chance to place genital HPV in an accurate context, as the very common virus it really is. According to an article published in 1997 in the American Journal of Medicine, about 74 percent of Americans--nearly three out of four--have been infected with genital HPV at some point in their lives.

Among those ages 15-49, only one in four Americans has not had a genital HPV infection.

It's true that most often genital HPV produces no symptoms or illness, and so a person who has been infected may never know about it. Experts estimate that at any given time, only about 1% of all sexually active Americans have visible genital warts. Far more women have abnormal Pap smears related to HPV infection, but in many cases health care providers do not explain the link between HPV and cervical infection, perpetuating the misunderstanding.

Myth: If I've always used condoms, I'm not at risk for HPV.
The reason is simply that condoms do not cover the entire genital area of either sex. They leave the vulva, anus, perineal area, base of the penis, and scrotum uncovered, and contact between these areas can transmit HPV. Spermicides probably do not stop HPV. In lab studies, spermicides failed to kill the human papillomavirus.

There are no blood tests clinically available to diagnose a person for HPV.

Links for the info above:
http://www.ashastd.org/learn/learn_hpv_warts.cfm

STD Facts - Genital Herpes

Sexually Transmitted Diseases - Information from CDC

Won't safe sex protect you from getting an STD? | Chastity.com Interesting stats.

I basically want to say that it seems condoms are a false sense of security for many. Condoms can not protect the areas it doesn’t cover. My few warts are located between my anus and vagina. Where the condom doesnt cover... But I would still use them even though condoms were originally developed for preventing pregnancy they still are somewhat effective against STD's. Swinging is risky, you have to determine if its worth it for you. Was it worth it for me? I would have to say yes. This form of HPV isn’t going to kill me. The warts are rather insignificant. We can still play with other HPV people if we choose to. I have no regrets and would likely do it all over again.

Thanks for reading. Be informed, be aware, it might never happen but dont think it won't happen.
The end.

[Unsub]

Boy I sure killed this thread! Actually surprised that there wasnt some sort of comment, especially from those who were mentioned in my post. I am not sure if it was the shock value or what, but didnt expect the discussion to end so quick.

lol, its not the first time I have killed a thread Just hope it can help someone else.

[CXXC]

You didnt kill it. I have actually been working on a reply. However, it is not as simple as write and post. I have to think on it. The smoke will clear soon and I will post it!

[Unsub]

Originally Posted by CXXC

You didnt kill it. I have actually been working on a reply. However, it is not as simple as write and post. I have to think on it. The smoke will clear soon and I will post it!

No rush, it took me a week of thinking about it and two days to write my post. I always appreciate them more when they are well thought out and some time is spent on them! Besides, it is getting close to Christmas and there are other priorities in life and posting to an STD thread is not real high up on my list!

[drziggy]

I just had to add some facts to the above replies. After all, Sexology (sexuality and sexual behaviour) is my field of study and research, thus I possess a certain amount of knowledgeable in infectious disease related to the field.
Firstly, quite often the numbers quoted by the CDC always consider worst case scenarios and are NOT based on statistical probability information (especially when it relates to the sexual STIs...). This is often one of the criticisms of the CDC, an adherence to the social zeitgeist . Secondly, the rate condom effectiveness at 85% has been refuted and shown not to be based on factual data but merely estimates. The true estimation based on the factual information we possess is indeed 98% for STIs and Pregnancy (exceptions for possibly HPV). However, there's no 100% effective means of protection. Mucous membranes exposed to bodily fluids should be covered by a condom. If they are not, you aren't using it properly. Moreover, HPV (genital warts) can usually be identified by the naked eye either on the penis or or the genital area of both males and females; the same applies to Herpes sores (active stage), albeit anyone with active Herpes probably wouldn't engage in sexual contact (extreme pain is associated with the sores...). Genital warts can easily removed by "burning", albeit the virus may still be present.
Thirdly, HPV can be "caught" merely by rubbing skin or rubbing hands on the infected skin (although HPV is considered an STI it should not classified just as such. The same criteria applies to Herpes Simplex).
Estimates from the CDC aren't the only ones given credibility. There are other world organizations with as high a reputation as the CDC. ALL information is usually considered when evaluating pandemics or outbreaks of particular disease (and not just STIs).
My main purpose for the research was to evaluate the incidence and prevalence of STIs among the swinging population. Does my study paint an accurate picture? Somewhat. Does it suggest that these rates are stable over the swinging population overall? Probably. As I suggested in the analysis in the study, which will be published early 2010, the sample may not reflect those that have had STIs or those that may not be willing to share that information with a researcher. I guess that I find myself in the same boat as other researchers representing the CDC and other information gathering health organizations. We ALL work out of estimates based on the level of probability we decide to work with (probability defines how accurate our findings are, either 95% or 99% sure).
I stand by my results as having strong internal and external validity, reliability and consistency.
What you do with the information and how you decide to interpret it is totally up to you.
I do feel that the results do represent what is going on in the swinging community, I do not believe that the numbers for STIs are much higher than what I have reported.
Having said said, I still think that safe sex is the best way to minimize the chances of acquiring STIs. I do not agree that condoms are not reliable, thus people should just take their chances. Moreover, there are too many factors involved in the process (too many cogs to this machine) to reduce it simply to condoms or other barriers.
Cheers!

[fun4Ds]

Originally Posted by Unsub

I basically want to say that it seems condoms are a false sense of security for many. Condoms can not protect the areas it doesn’t cover. My few warts are located between my anus and vagina. Where the condom doesnt cover... But I would still use them even though condoms were originally developed for preventing pregnancy they still are somewhat effective against STD's. Swinging is risky, you have to determine if its worth it for you. Was it worth it for me? I would have to say yes. This form of HPV isn’t going to kill me. The warts are rather insignificant. We can still play with other HPV people if we choose to. I have no regrets and would likely do it all over again.

Thanks for reading. Be informed, be aware, it might never happen but dont think it won't happen.
The end.

When I got to this part the only response I could think of was, amen (I agree) I think your post is informative and truly sincere.

I rate this thread "excellent" as well and hope, that because of this posts entirety, as well the other contributers, and for so much of drziggy's work. It is pinned to the stickies in this forum.

Maybe thats not near enough, but its the only way I can say thank you. Your thoughts, may make a change in someones life someday reading here, as it has effected me.

Originally Posted by Unsub

Boy I sure killed this thread! Actually surprised that there wasnt some sort of comment, especially from those who were mentioned in my post. I am not sure if it was the shock value or what, but didnt expect the discussion to end so quick.

lol, its not the first time I have killed a thread Just hope it can help someone else.

I'll laugh with you, not at you.... Deal ? Lets hang out together

Again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to take time, and listen...

[swing456lover]

Originally Posted by drziggy

I have just completed the largest study on swinging and STDs and Safe Sex.
If anyone is interested I could ask Julie to post the results herein...what I found may surprise you.
Let me know if you have any questions or want further information.
Cheers!
DrZiggy

I would like to see the results too. I have ever seen a report at a STD dating service says swingers are more likely to be infected with STD. Is that true? I am a little scared.

[swing456lover]

Originally Posted by Chicup

The STD part is about what I expected.

HPV and Herpes you need to mentally assume you will get while swinging sooner or later, and be glad if you don't, especially HPV, its just too common.

Yes. According to the CDC, there are over 65 million Americans currently
living with an STD, 19 million new STD infections each year, one in three sexually active men and women living with Herpes, and about 50% of all sexually active Americans affected by HPV.

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by Unsub

Vegas Lee, you are indeed very lucky. However, the span of 30 years in of itself really doesn’t mean much. How many partners in the span is more relevant. And no I don’t want to know the answer, just pointing out a little or a lot of playmates can swing by in 30 years time… Also, for males, there is no test for HPV, you could very well be a carrier and never ever know it. For you sake, I hope not.

It appears that you missed the "WE" part in my posting. Laura has been with me and active the whole time and once again, I will agree that WE have been very lucky.

If you read much of the forums here from the past years you will know that WE have not been the "Social Dance Club" type swingers.

You are correct, years in itself mean nothing but I can attest that WE also have the "Experience" to go with those years.

[tribbles]

We have had a lot of swingers mention tests (on the female) that I know are for HPV but oddly, none of them think they have an STI

I'm happy to see HIV at 0. It's really the only one that worries me.

[Unsub]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

It appears that you missed the "WE" part in my posting. Laura has been with me and active the whole time and once again, I will agree that WE have been very lucky.

If you read much of the forums here from the past years you will know that WE have not been the "Social Dance Club" type swingers.

You are correct, years in itself mean nothing but I can attest that WE also have the "Experience" to go with those years.

Ok not sure why the drama with "we" stuff but I know your part of a couple.... I wasnt talking to your lovely wife Laura as she did not post the message, you did. I was talking to you. So ok, we are in agreement with you "TWO" are very lucky!

No disrespect intended in this or the other post, just stating the fact that as a male YOU can not be tested for HPV therefore there is no 100% way to know that you have it or dont... You might be fine, and I would almost trust that you are. Maybe I should have added more smiley faces and some lol's, as that post was not negatively directed at anyone. "For your sake, I hope not." Was meant with utter sincerity, because I like you and value your wisdom that you carry, I felt you would make an exciting play partner. That would never happen because of geography, but a gal can fantasize cant she?

[Unsub]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

When I got to this part the only response I could think of was, amen (I agree) I think your post is informative and truly sincere.

I rate this thread "excellent" as well and hope, that because of this posts entirety, as well the other contributers, and for so much of drziggy's work. It is pinned to the stickies in this forum.

Maybe thats not near enough, but its the only way I can say thank you. Your thoughts, may make a change in someones life someday reading here, as it has effected me.


I'll laugh with you, not at you.... Deal ? Lets hang out together

Again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to take time, and listen...

Thanks for the kind words. Whats the saying, laughter is the best medicine? It IS the best medicine, and its free!
My couch or yours?