Herpes Again

[knb2004]

OK, chances are this post won't be popular, and I need to be crystal clear that this question is based on pure speculation and nothing more.

Here's the facts as I understand them.

• 25% of American women have HSV-2.
  
• 20% of American men have HSV-2.
  
• 90% of people who have it are completely asymptomatic and do not know they have it.
  
• Doctors will typically not test for it, even in a standard STD panel unless specifically requested.
  
• Herpes can be spread even if no breakout is present and condoms are used, or even from casual, non-sexual contact.

With those facts, I can't help but wonder if a very high percentage of us swingers have it and don't even realize it. Here's my thinking. We go to a variety of events, usually on prem clubs and house parties. It's not universal by any means, but we tend to see many of the same people over and over and over again. Now if we were to go to a year long swing party with 200 people, all newbies, assuming about 20-25% had HSV-2 as the stats say would be the case on Day 1, isn't it reasonable to conclude that percentage would be approaching 100% by Day 365?

Granted, that closed system that I just described emulates the real world only to a degree, but at least for those of us who are seasoned vets it could have some bad implications. On the other hand, as I've said before, a disease that causes not a single symptom in 90% of infected people, and only an occasional, temporary, irritating rash for the other 10% really isn't that scary.

What say you?

[SW_PA_Couple]

Yes, scary I think. I've found it difficult to get clear information. I mentioned HSV and HPV to my PCP and to my dermatologist. The PCP blanched and sputtered his answer; the dermatologist deflected the subject by giving an evasive answer. If not even medical professionals can speak frankly about this stuff, how are non-medical people supposed to get the facts? My wife asked the gynecologist for a whole laundry list of tests and the gyne acted as if she had never had such a request before. What's with that?

Anyway, what I think is that for anyone is really scared of Herpes, having sex with others is not something they should be doing. The wife and I get tested not so much for ourselves but so we might know if and when it is time for us to stop and not pass things to other people.

~Michael

[knb2004]

Originally Posted by SW_PA_Couple

The wife and I get tested not so much for ourselves but so we might know if and when it is time for us to stop and not pass things to other people.

~Michael

That would, on the surface, seem to be a kind and reasonable approach. If you pop positive, stop playing to save others the same fate. But, after further review, is it really reasonable?

At any given party of say 200 people, unless an argument can be made that swingers as a whole don't have the same statistics of the general population, there will be somewhere from 40-50 people who have HSV-2. (And, of course, that particular statistic could be quite low if my original hypothesis is correct.) Of those 40-50, 36-45 of them have no idea they're infected, so out of 200 people only 4-5 of them have HSV-2 and know it. Even if every person who knows they're infected decides not to participate it only reduces the actual number of HSV-2 participants by a handful.

So, on the one hand, it's the ethical, reasonable, and kind thing if you know you have HSV-2 to not participate, or at least participate only after full disclosure. On the other hand, one only needs to go through a relatively small handful of playmates before one has a virtual certainty of having played with someone HSV-2 positive, whether they know it or not. Frankly the expectation that it won't happen to you is, statistically speaking anyway, unreasonable.

I'm beginning to think an HSV-2 infection is inevitable if you participate in the Lifestyle long enough, unless either the stats are wrong, or an HSV-1 infection (which virtually all of us have) offers statistically meaningful protection.

[socolais]

I think your logic assumes contact with an infected playmate results in a high probability of desease transmission.

[knb2004]

Yes, it does, and I don't know what the reality is.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by knb2004

I'm beginning to think an HSV-2 infection is inevitable if you participate in the Lifestyle long enough, unless either the stats are wrong, or an HSV-1 infection (which virtually all of us have) offers statistically meaningful protection.

Note my join date to the swingers board. We are clear of HSV-2.

Your numbers are a bit high. That 90% figure is off from everything I can find. Seropositive (which just means antibodies to it) is somewhere in the 15-60% range depending on the study, in other words it swings wildly. Since they don't test for the virus itself, it just means exposure, and its unknown if the virus is still being shed in all asymptomatic cases (where the only detection method are serum antibodies) its hard to say what real risks are.

Still there are good odds of coming into contact with it given enough time and partners.

While perhaps I could use the same logic and decide since its common enough to commit the lie of omission that not disclosing HSV-2 would be, I know my wife would never swing if she knew she had HSV-2 so I won't ever be faced with such a moral quandary.

[knb2004]

Originally Posted by Chicup

That 90% figure is off from everything I can find.

The 90% figure, from what I have read, is the percentage of people who are infected who don't realize it. I do not mean 90% of people are infected.

Originally Posted by Chicup

Seropositive (which just means antibodies to it) is somewhere in the 15-60% range depending on the study, in other words it swings wildly.

Which would imply the 25% of women and 20% of men supposedly infected is, at least, a reasonable number.

Originally Posted by Chicup

While perhaps I could use the same logic and decide since its common enough to commit the lie of omission that not disclosing HSV-2 would be, I know my wife would never swing if she knew she had HSV-2 so I won't ever be faced with such a moral quandary.

Let me be clear that I am not trying to justify playing with the knowledge that you are HSV-2 positive without disclosure. I suppose part of the reason for this thread is trying to figure out if that's reasonaable or not. While I have absolutely no reason to believe I am HSV-2 positive, the more thought I've given about the statistics, the more it seems inevitable to me. After all, 90% of those who are, in fact, infected with HSV-2 can honestly say they have no reason to believe they are, so it has occurred to me that I may in fact be playing assuming I don't have it, when in fact I do.

Would I feel the need to disclose a cold? Probably not. A viral infection that is common and in most cases results in no symptoms? Not so sure.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Originally Posted by knb2004

I'm beginning to think an HSV-2 infection is inevitable if you participate in the Lifestyle long enough, unless either the stats are wrong, or an HSV-1 infection (which virtually all of us have) offers statistically meaningful protection.

I believe you are essentially correct. This is similar to saying that the greater number of hours you drive or ride in a motor vehicle the greater the probability you will be injured in a highway accident. Ride long enough and far enough and an injury is inevitable -- even for a person who wears seat belts and drives no faster than 30 mph.

[JustAskJulie]

While the 90% may be high, from what I've read the 20-25% number is low.

I think this is the point that some others like Good Times have been making in other threads. Yes, the threat is there and yes you are likely to come into contact with it while swinging. And yes you may get it and may even pass it on without ever knowing.

Doctors do not test for it on a typical STD panel and even if requested to test for it you could have it and show a false negative if you are not showing any signs or have not had an active infection recently (which is all the blood test shows).

No one can really say for 100% that they do not HSV, all they can say with certainty is that they have not ever had an active infection.

[tribbles]

Why do so many worry about HSV? Does it lead to cancer? Will it kill you?

I came to the same conclusions as knb2004

a disease that causes not a single symptom in 90% of infected people, and only an occasional, temporary, irritating rash for the other 10% really isn't that scary.

There really is no reason to be scared. Odds are high I've played with people who have it and will again. Maybe I have it and don't know it. Life goes on......


HPV....has the possibility to be way worse (CANCER) and no one is scared of it.....why is that?

I'd rather someone passed me HSV with occasional, temporary, irritating rashes than give me something that can lead to cancer.....

Think about it....which one would you rather have if you have to get one?

(there is no option of none of the above in my question! Pick one-even just in your own head...what would your choice be?)

[good times]

I have read everything I could get my hands on on the subject and one thing is pretty clear, I don't think anyone can tell you what the real percentage of infected people is.

As far as testing goes, you can get both a false negative and a semi-false positive for HSV. What I mean by "semi-false positive" is, the blood tests done to detect HSV can only prove you have been exposed to it, it can't tell you if you are infected or not. It is possible to be exposed to it and have antibodies in your system, but not be infected in the sense that you could have an outbreak or pass it on to someone else, from what I understand. This is the reason why the medical community is so reluctant to test for it, the tests don't really mean anything. That is probably also the reason why nobody really knows how many people are actually infected.

Another thing to keep in mind, while a couple of studies have supposedly shown that it is possible to asymptomatically shed the virus, in other words to infect someone while showing no symptoms yourself. The general consensus among researchers is that this is either not possible or extremely rare. Most believe that shedding of the virus occurs from a couple of hours before obvious symptoms of an outbreak occurs, until healing of the outbreak is past the scabbing stage. In those cases, it is believed that the person suffering the outbreak can tell he/she has an impending outbreak before he/she actually starts shedding the virus, as it is said that he/she will experience what is most often described as a tingling or itching sensation in the area where the outbreak will occur well before shedding starts.

Keep in mind that in most of the studies that the claim is made that asymptomatic shedding is possible, that conclusion was based on interviewing the subjects and asking them if they saw any signs of Herpes. I don't think this is a very reliable method myself, as I have seen people at clubs before with cold sores on their lips and was surprised how few other people even noticed it. That is why I am a big advocate for oral sex as foreplay, (alright, I admit it, that isn't the only reason) it gives someone who knows what to look for a chance to check the other person out for the visual signs of HSV before actually touching genitals.

Finally, my personal feeling is that if HSV was as prevalent and as easy to contract as most of these so called "informational" reports would indicate, a lot more of us would have active Herpes than seems to be the case. The fact is, if the numbers were even close to being what is commonly thrown around on the internet, my wife and I should be infected, yet we are not. Why is that? My feeling is that either not as many folks are infected or actively shedding the virus as is often estimated, or it is much harder to transfer and contract the virus than is implied, or swingers are just a lot luckier than the average population. Whatever the reason, I for one, have decided while I will be educated and observant with potential play partners in order to avoid contact with it, I am not going to lose a lot of sleep worrying about it.

Also keep in mind that it is rare for someone to have a severe case of herpes, enough to have more than a couple outbreaks a year. In other words, odds are pretty good that if you happened to play with someone who has herpes, it is a pretty good chance they would not be shedding the virus when you were playing with them, and therefore, you would not be at risk.

[slevin]

I won't comment on the herpes side since Good times already covered that in depth. On the HPV front it is a much different situation than herpes. HPV has a vaccine for women (women 11-26 can have the vaccine), it is typically cleared from the body by the immune system within 2 years (though it can remain longer) and has multiple types (much like herpes). There are different strains that cause different things, even a woman who has a high risk strain (one that can cause cancer) it is a small percentage of those who will actually develop cancerous cells. Now, any risk of cancer is a very bad thing, but the actual risk is quite small.

Also, HPV can not be tested for in men. So while a woman can find out if she has it already, a man can not find out that he carries it. Since it's women that are really at risk with HPV (genital warts can affect men, but that is estimated at 1% of those infected) this is again one of those things that is important to be aware of, but there is very little than can be done to limit the risk. Get the vaccine (if you can) and if you are a woman have an HPV test done regularly.

[graygo98]

Originally Posted by knb2004

"...or an HSV-1 infection (which virtually all of us have) offers statistically meaningful protection".

Thanks, Good Times and Slevin, for some really useful information and reasoned presentation.

I have often wondered about the question knb raises in the snip above. Can someone who has antibodies for HSV1 contract HSV2? (Not that there is a huge difference in that either can present orally or genitally, but since most people already have been exposed to HSV1 and don't even know it, it would make the lower incidence of HSV2 easier to understand if it conferred some form of immunity.)

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by graygo98

Thanks, Good Times and Slevin, for some really useful information and reasoned presentation.

I have often wondered about the question knb raises in the snip above. Can someone who has antibodies for HSV1 contract HSV2? (Not that there is a huge difference in that either can present orally or genitally, but since most people already have been exposed to HSV1 and don't even know it, it would make the lower incidence of HSV2 easier to understand if it conferred some form of immunity.)

There appears to be SOME protection if you have HSV-1, but you can have both.

[Tracey2]

I went through a little phase of being extremely scared of contracting herpes a couple of months ago so I did huge amounts of research. I think I have to agree with a lot of what is being said here...it's not as big of a deal as it originally seems. I don't think I'm now as scared of it (as long as reasonable precautions are taken) as I was. I think the thought of contracting it scares me more because of what it might do to our little "hobby" which we've really been enjoying! In other words, I'm not as afraid of us contracting it because of the actual consequences of the rash, but what it would mean for future play, which we'd really like to continue

One interesting little tidbit I came across during my frantic researching involved a potential cure for herpes that some researchers think is on the horizon. It would involve actually flushing out the virus so it could be killed. Right now, what is so frustrating about herpes is that it hides in the nerves so well that it can't be killed. If they could get around that little aspect, it would be curable. Of course, no one knows how soon a cure may come about, but it was interesting.

Potential herpes cure flushes out virus - Sexual health- msnbc.com