Herpes Again

[qreskupl7476]

Let's face it, most things that are fun . . . . are somewhat dangerous, and swinging is no exception. Of course condoms are a good idea, but just like any other sport/hobby in the world, safety gear such as helmets and pads only go so far. It's one of those things where each individual has to evaluate the risk vs. fun factor and decide if it's worth it to them as an individual. If one can accept the risk, there's fun to be had for sure, but just like all of the other dangerous/semi dangerous things we do for fun and in our daily lives, each person has their own threshold with regards to how much danger they're willing to accept.

With that being said, herpes isn't a death sentence. At worst, it's a nuisance ailment that can often be managed effectively with various treatments. Still, anyone who knows that they have herpes SHOULD make that little tidbit abundantly clear to any prospective partner prior to engaging in any sexual activity, then let said partner make up their own mind whether they're willing to accept the risk. If someone has it and doesn't know, then how can they be blamed if they pass it on?

STD's are indeed a real risk, but fortunately they are a risk that is quite manageable in our humble opinion. We also feel that they are a risk that is far overblown by the government/media in an effort to push a right wing moral agenda. In their defense, unwanted pregnancies and transmission of various STD's including HIV is rampant in certain segments of society so the reasoning for their efforts isn't entirely ungrounded, but we don't feel that swingers are a part of that segment of society which they target necessarily. Promiscuous high school and college students account for the vast majority of these cases in our personal experience, as well as other inexperienced young adults looking for a good time but not responsible enough to take measures to protect themselves. Not mature, intelligent adults engaging in swinging situations.

Personally, we're far more concerned with HPV. Many studies suggest that it's far more common than herpes, and several of it's over 100 types have been shown to cause cancer. It's much more difficult and far less commonly tested for, and other than the mostly harmless types that cause genital warts, has no obvious symptoms whatsoever.

[sassycpl]

Yes its risky, we got it form swinging a few times a year and being very selective with the couples we did. Its so common amoung people now that soon we will be posting on our AFF and Swing Lifestyle profiles when everyone understands. We think most people just continue to swing with it and dont tell anyone due to being passed over.

[slevin]

You should read a few of Good times posts on the subject. The estimates of how many people are infected with HSV2 is an overly conservative estimate. Hard data is difficult to come by since the only way to confirm you are actually infected with HSV2 is to swab the sores when they are present. Doing a blood test only confirms that you were exposed to the virus and have antibodies present in your blood stream. It doesn't confirm you actually have HSV2. This is also why most doctors won't bother to test for it unless specifically asked (unless you have active sores for them to swab).

Not trying to discuss any of your other comments regarding people swinging with or without it etc., just suggesting you check out those posts, some great info there.

[crazykatie]

The truth is, Herpes has not been studied to the same degree as many other viruses because it is not viewed as a significant public health risk. It does not result in death. It is asymptomatic in the majority of infected humans. And, because our society has been largely monogamous, the threat of significant spread in somewhat limited. However, here is some of what is known....

The virus, when it takes hold in a human, resides in the nervous tissue at the base of the spine. When an outbreak occurs, the virus spreads along the nervous system and, in some cases, results in open sores in the genital area (not necessarily on the shaft of the penis or in the vaginal canal). The virus is believe to be passed by skin contact in the genital regions and mucous membranes of the lips and mouth (probably because the large number of nerve endings in these regions increase the number of channels for the virus to invade the body and take hold). Accordingly, condoms provide varying degrees of protection against contracting the virus.

There are various theories as to why the disease can become chronic (reoccurring). I subscribe to the theory that the limited blood and lymphatic flows at the base of the spine limits the body’s immune response in that region inhibiting the body’s ability to completely eradicate the disease. All that is required is that a single virus remain active (live) within the body for there to be a risk of reoccurrence.

It you have antibodies, it means that some amount of virus has at some time entered your body. Thus, you have been infected. However, it is possible to be infected to such a slight degree that the disease did not "take hold" in your system (you carry no live virus today). Also, it is possible that even if you have an outbreak, your condition will not become chronic. Or, that your body's response to an outbreak will be sufficient to keep the virus from making it all the way down the nervous system to the skin (thus, no symptomatic outbreak).

Most symptomatic HSV sufferers describe a "tingling" feeling which proceeds development of a skin sore. This tingling feeling is believed to be reflective of the involvement of the nervous system in the spread of the disease to the skin. Accordingly, symptomatic sufferers who recognize this tingling can reliably predict the onset of an infective outbreak. However, the best research today suggests that a large percentage of HSV sufferers, while potentially capable of passing the disease, suffer no outward symptoms at all (or, if they had such symptoms, did not recognize them for what they were).

For diagnosed Herpes sufferers, there are now drugs which inhibit the virus’ ability to reoccur.

It has been my experience that Swingers like to view themselves as generally enlightened and non-judgmental. However, in the case of Herpes, this is simply not so. I know a number of couples who carry the Herpes antibody including some who still report recurring outbreaks. A few are open an honest about their infection. Others remain underground.

It is easy for those on this board to express the view that swingers should be open an honest about their condition. However, Herpes carries with it a stigma in the swinger community that spreads much faster than any virus, with much more debilitating results.

If one is open an honest about having the disease, in my personal experience, word of their infection quickly spreads. While everyone within a local community may not play together, almost everyone talks. In short order, everyone knows. Then, if others choose to play openly with that couple, suspicion spreads. What possible reason could someone have for playing with an infected couple unless they were infected, too.

Guilt by association even if that couple has done their research and come to the conclusion that they are safer playing with someone who knows they are infected and takes all reasonable precautions over playing with someone who may be infected and does not know it.

Herpes is to the swinger community as leprosy was in biblical times. So, the majority of infected couples we know do not openly discuss their condition. If they are not suffering the tingling of an outbreak and have no sores, they play just like everyone else. Moreover, it should be no shock that people do not ask to be tested for the antibodies. What use is knowing something that you don’t want to know in the first place. Better to be able to swing without knowledge of your true medical condition than to know something which you may be unwilling to deal with anyway.

We have stopped playing with unknown new couples because we despise the hypocrisy of the swinger community at large. We continue to meet friends that we have previously made and who know of our condition (only I have ever had outbreaks, but my significant other is positive for the antibody, which is no surprise). We also have been introduced to others privately with whom we will agree to play. But, we no longer go to clubs, etc.

But, be forewarned. The person sitting across the table from you could be an HSV sufferer. There is at least a 25% chance of that being true. The vast majority of the time, that couple will not know that they are infected (and does not want to know). As a result, they will be unable to discern whether they are at risk for spreading the disease to you. In those limited cases that you come in contact with someone who is a HSV sufferer and knows of their infection (but is not disclosing it to you), take solace in the fact that they are far more likely to know if they are infectious.

By the way, when you get Herpes, you should know that the person who gave it to you probably had no idea they were infected or contagious. Don't fool yourself into believing that someone had to be a lying sneak in order for you to be infected.

Happy hunting!

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

There are various theories as to why the disease can become chronic (reoccurring). I subscribe to the theory that the limited blood and lymphatic flows at the base of the spine limits the body’s immune response in that region inhibiting the body’s ability to completely eradicate the disease. All that is required is that a single virus remain active (live) within the body for there to be a risk of reoccurrence.

Sounds...chiropractic. Herpes viruses hide in nerve cells, which is why they can't be eradicated by the immune system. HSV 1 can be both genital and oral, and unless its hiding in the lower spine on the way up to the mouth, its something else.

[crazykatie]

When Herpes presents orally, either because of HSV1 or 2, the source is thought to be the nervous ganglia in the head area (the trigeminal ganglia) and not the ganglia at the base of the spine. For more information, check out:

Genital Herpes

As I indicated, I presented only one theory as to why the condition becomes chronic. There are many theories as the exact reasons are not well understood.

Originally Posted by Dr. Klimpel writes:

Latent Infections
Latent infections result when an infecting virus (e.g., a herpesvirus) is maintained within a cell for a long time (sometimes years) without giving rise to progeny virus or damaging the cell. Cells infected in this way may express virus-specific antigens on their cell surface. Months to years after infection, the virus in these cells can be reactivated, replicate, and cause disease. The mechanisms by which viruses are maintained intracellularly for long periods and then reactivated are only incompletely understood. Many latent infections occur in sequestered areas of the body (such as the nervous system), where recognition of infected cells by the immune system is believed to be difficult. In addition, any cell that harbors a virus but does not express viral antigens is not recognized by the immune system.

For more information on infective responses:

Immune Defenses

In my view, that the virus resides in a cell alone is not enough to explain the anti-bodies' inability to completely eradicate the disease. All viruses reside in cells. In my view, if residing in a cell were enough, no one would ever get over any virus. Neither the sacral nor trigeminal ganglia have the most robust circulation (particularly, lymphatic circulation). In my view, this could explain why this tissue is not as completely saturated by antibodies as are the nerve cells leading from the ganglia to the skin (where active virus cells are completely eradicated) when an outbreak occurs. I do not subscribe to the "cell does not express viral antigens" theory in the case of ganglia and HSV2 as I believe it has been established (in separate studies) that such is not the case with HSV2 in nervous system ganglia tissue.

But, why Herpes is chronic really wasn't the point of my posting.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

When Herpes presents orally, either because of HSV1 or 2, the source is thought to be the nervous ganglia in the head area (the trigeminal ganglia) and not the ganglia at the base of the spine. For more information, check out:

Genital Herpes

As I indicated, I presented only one theory as to why the condition becomes chronic. There are many theories as the exact reasons are not well understood.



For more information on infective responses:

Immune Defenses

In my view, that the virus resides in a cell alone is not enough to explain the anti-bodies' inability to completely eradicate the disease. All viruses reside in cells. In my view, if residing in a cell were enough, no one would ever get over any virus. Neither the sacral nor trigeminal ganglia have the most robust circulation (particularly, lymphatic circulation). In my view, this could explain why this tissue is not as completely saturated by antibodies as are the nerve cells leading from the ganglia to the skin (where active virus cells are completely eradicated) when an outbreak occurs. I do not subscribe to the "cell does not express viral antigens" theory in the case of ganglia and HSV2 as I believe it has been established (in separate studies) that such is not the case with HSV2 in nervous system ganglia tissue.

But, why Herpes is chronic really wasn't the point of my posting.

The difference is you body has no problem killing a skill cell or blood cell, but gets rather squirrely about killing non-regenerating nerve cells. The virus has found a safe home since the effect of the body eradicating the virus is worse than the virus itself.

Being one of my specialty areas is the head and neck, and I routinely need to deal with infections in said area, I'd expect to see more chronic hard to cure infections if your blood theory were true. I don't. While the exact blood supply of the terminal ganglia is very hard to work out due to the complex anatomy of the area, its more famous for the ample blood supply triggering such issues such as trigeminal neuralgia. The theory is that basically too much is being pushed through one foramen and the artery in the area when blood pressure increases causes pressure and therefore sensory pain signals from CN5. This is not the only possible cause of trigeminal neuralgia but it does seem to be the cause in many.

Herpes is just a special virus, it found a great place to hide, and gives us outbreaks long after the acute stage because it can. Herpes zoster, chicken pox, hides in the nerve roots and later comes out in some people to give them shingles, HSV-1 hides in the nerve roots and gives us cold sores and sometimes genital sores, HSV-2 hides in the nerve roots and gives us a more annoying genital sore and even oral sores.

I do need to look into the shingles vaccine, I have to wonder if there is some hope for a HSV-1/2 vaccine in the near future.

[crazykatie]

I understand that the best current thinking is that the body, not wanting to destroy nerve cells to eliminate the virus, instead floods the infected cells with an enzyme that inhibits replication. One theory has the disease reoccurring when something inhibits the immune system's delivery of the enzyme to the infected cells (something suppresses the body’s immune response).

Research at Pitt targets herpes - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review