For those who dont use condoms

[RDfnd]

Menage,

Never thought of it that way. Bet there are probably a fair number of couples that may consciously or even sub-consciously be in that group. When discussion gets into the "intimacy" realm it's usually very interesting.

Unprotected oral (even in some cases to completion), condoms for genital penetration, no kissing etc. Some combinations seem somewhat illogical but guess that's what happens when you're dealing with emotions maybe more than health and science.

I feel that it is pretty intimate if a man has his uncovered penis in a woman's mouth, uncovered in her vagina less intimate. Safety from an STD standpoint is certainly a different issue. The real risk analysis is difficult at best to assess.

R

[mwc_mich]

For me it was not something that I did right from the start and in fact I thought going without a condom was a pretty crazy idea. A couple of years after we started I kind of realized that I wasn't being any more risky than when I was single and I adopted that attitude. I prefer my partner to cum inside but again it all depends on the moment, situation etc...

[2lovers]

My husband and me never use condom. When we first started swinging, we required using condoms, but in our first experience in a MFM situation, the guy has trouble keeping it up putting it on and taking it off . We discussed it afterward and decide that we want to stick with only one partner (my husband prefer MFM rather then couples, and who am I to refuse? ) and my husband and me decide that I would go out alone (without any intimacy) with a new partner for a few times to get to know him and feel more comfortable with him to get into playing without protection. I a fixed so I am nor worrying about getting pregnant. We know that the chance of us getting STD and etc.. is still there, but by socializing with a male partner to get to know him long before intimacy making me fell comfortable enough to decide going bareback.

[rick181au]

We never used condoms with others when we were swinging back in the 80’s (my wife had her tubes tied after our last child when she was 30 and we did not start swinging until we were 35) but when we stopped swinging and she started hot wifeing it and having M F M threesomes we “she” decided that we were better off sticking with regular guys and it made sense that we stuck to married guys who had a wife to go home to and had to look after their self so we carried on having un protected sex with others.
We have enjoyed 25 + years of swinging- swapping and having M F M threesomes and have never caught an STD, we were careful “and lucky” their were sometimes where lust took over and caution was thrown to the wind but all turned out OK.

[asncpl]

Mr. A and I both prefer no condoms in an ideal situation. I like the idea and feeling of a guy cumming inside me, and Mr. A likes the sight and smell of it and frequently likes to go in for sloppy seconds. When we started swinging (and before we knew of this Board), we required condoms for intercourse, but I didn't require condoms for blowjobs which seemed to be the norm for the couples we were playing with. In hindsight that was probably a bad idea. We had this condom discussion many times and we decided that we really prefer the feelings of going bareback, so what we did was to find those few couples we trust and go bareback. But at a club or with anyone new, we require condoms for everything. We try to have it both ways and so far it seems to work out.

[Lascivious L&L]

The bottom line is always what is the risk. How can you say it's too risky if you don't know what the risk is?

HIV is the big banana in risk, but the real risk of meeting an HIV infected person in swinging with those you've had some conversation with is very small. Very small to the point of 1 in 20,000, 30,000, 50,000? The little discussed fact is that HIV infection rarely happens on the first fuck. In fact the few studies I've seen put the number at around 200 fucks on average with an HIV infected person for transmission of HIV.

This means death from infection from HIV is less likely than death from an accident in your automobile and other common everyday risks. That's an acceptable risk for me and my wife.

The CDC site says most adults are infected with the herpes virus. The stats are 58% with HSV-1 and 20% with HSV-2. Either one can be transmitted orally or genitally. So assume you and everyone you swing with is infected. Why do so few people realize they are infected? Because most people have no symptoms from herpes infection. It's a virus that most immune systems handle, like chicken pox, which is in the herpes family. HPV is similar, being present in most sexually active adults and most do not have any symptoms.

Herpes and HPV are not well protected from by condoms. Oral sex transmitts and few people wear condoms for oral sex. Skin contact transmits, hand to cock, kissing, etc. The reality is that herpes and HPV are normal, just like the common cold or flue.

We each decide what risks are acceptable. Knowing the actual risks is the bottom line. Knowing the limitations of condoms is also important.

[SnowwwWhite]

It would be great if it took "200 fucks" to transmit HIV. But that's not the reality. It's worth reading about porn star Darren James' experience and how he contracted the disease from one encounter on set in Brazil and subsequently transmitted the virus to three female actresses during a film a few weeks later. One of the women he infected had only been in the industry for one month when they filmed together. Her next HIV test came up positive.

Porn Industry Hit With 16 Confirmed HIV Cases - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
Porn star recalls nightmare of testing HIV positive - Los Angeles Times

Maybe this is a reach, but wouldn't it make sense that swingers are at a greater risk than porn stars to be exposed to STDs? Think about it... porn stars are tested every 30 days and cannot perform if they haven't tested negative in the previous 30 days. Swingers, however, are on the honor system and don't have to be accountable to anyone. Both groups are known to have multiple sexual partners in a somewhat closed loop, with the risk supposedly coming from outside the loop.

We all know there are risks in swinging but it's frustrating to see people throw out "facts and figures" in an effort to justify unsafe sex or to minimize the significance of infections.

And let's be real. Herpes is not "normal" or just like the flu. Just because supposedly 58% of people have it doesn't mean "everyone" has it. This is what scares me about swinging. People who want to play even though they have a disease and make a decision about what they think is an acceptable risk for others. With that kind of thinking, yes, everyone eventually will have Herpes. Thanks.

Call me naive, but I always assumed swingers were a safer risk because they realize that bringing an infection into the group compromises the lifestyle and hurts innocent people. But reading comments that say it takes "200 fucks" to get HIV and that Herpes is no big deal makes me wonder if there is an unspoken assumption in the swinging world that we're all going to end up with an STD so why bother protecting yourself or anyone else.

Most everyone in the forums claims to not have an STD and "never caught one" but then there's a lot of talk of barebacking and downplaying of Herpes. The only people I can imagine don't think Herpes is a big deal is someone who already has it... and doesn't want uninfected people to care if they get it or not.

I guess I always assumed married spouses want to protect each other and their family from the fallout of disease and would play as safe as possible. But some of the comments I've been reading have really made me wonder if there's an unspoken assumption that all swingers probably have some form of Herpes and if not, we're eventually going to get it.

Is it just a given that by participating in the swinging world, swingers are accepting that they will eventually get Herpes... and that it's okay to pass it along without much guilt? My partner and I have been taking it slowly, soft swapping several times with other newbies until we get comfortable. It's scary to think there might be an STD "secret code" that long-time swingers know about... and the rest of us will eventually find out by surprise.

Sorry if this post is a downer... just looking for the truth from experienced people who would know!

[bbarnsworth]

SnowwwWhite, I don't think many swingers downplay the risk of STDs. Certainly there are a few that do. But, any sufficiently large group is bound to have a few people who have opinions significantly disparate from the majority.

_Nobody_ in swinging wants to get an STD. Yes, there's some ignorance out there. There's also, as you note, perhaps too much dependency on the honor system.

But, how is swinging different than vanilla dating/sex? Quite a number of people would say "but you're having sex with lots of people, virtually at random!". Reality check; so do vanilla people. How many vanilla people actually ask a partner, before having sex with them, for a recent STD test result? That number approaches zero, I'll guarantee it. How many vanilla people believe "It's ok. I am/he is using a condom"? Lots and lots.

There is a level of indifference and lackadaisical attitude with regards to STDs that is extant whether swinging or vanilla. There is, from my admittedly anecdotal experience, considerably more concern and proactive defense about STDs among swingers than among vanillas. I had nine penile-vaginal sex partners before getting into swinging, and several other "soft" sex experiences (to borrow a term from swinging). Not one of those women ever asked me my STD status prior to playing the first time. Not one. Among swingers? 100% so far.

So, I can readily make an argument that swingers are considerably more conscious of STDs, aware of the consequences of them, and more concerned about the transmission of them than vanilla counterparts.

Swingers most certainly are not immune to STDs. But as you note, it's somewhat of a closed system. No, there's no testing as in the porn industry. However, the 'inputs' to the system are (with couples at least) in the vast majority of cases couples that have been married for a number of years, and have a strong, stable relationship that didn't involve cheating on each other. The incidence rate of STDs among such people is very, very low. Non-zero, but low. If your inputs to the system have a very, very low rate of STDs, the general population of swingers COULD see an outbreak of a given STD, but the chances are considerably lower than among non-married vanillas.

Consider this; since they started keeping track in the 1980s, there has never...ever...been a legal, licensed Nevada brothel prostitute that has tested positive for HIV. Contrast that in 2000, the HIV rate among New Jersey prostitutes was 57%.

[slevin]

Also, when it comes to porn stars the only STD they are /really/ concerned with is HIV. Porn stars regularly transmit other STDs amongst each other. Yes, when they get their test done and it's positive for the clap, they cant work until it's negative. But they aren't concerned with that, because some anti-biotics and it clears up. They also don't test for herpes, as far as I know. All of that coupled with the fact that the majority of porn stars are having sex 5-10 times a week, mostly with different people (though there will be repeats over a longer sample time). They almost never wear condoms and many of the girls are also escorting, which has them fucking untested guys out of the porn world. Overall I don't think they are 'safer' than anyone else. As swingers we've probably had sex with less people than our single friends have over the same period. I know for a fact that is true in a number of cases for us.

Also, I believe that both recent cases of HIV in the porn industry came from guys filming scenes outside of the US with women who don't need to be tested every month like the women in California do. Those scenes also involved anal sex, without a condom (to my knowledge). That is a much higher risk factor than vaginal sex with a condom.

[Lascivious L&L]

I got my herpes information from the CDC website. It was a test of the general population. 58% of the general population has HSV-1, 20% had HSV-2, and some had both. That's the general population. Among swingers it is likely higher. I'm sorry if you don't understand the word normal, but those figures mean the norm is herpes and the exception is not having herpes.

Herpes has been hyped as a horrible STD. That does not fit the reality of most adults being infected. There are those who have serious symptoms from herpes. But most have no symptoms. In most people it is not even as serious as the flue. One perfect demonstration of that fact is how people refuse to believe a study conducted by the CDC on herpes. Herpes is a big bad STD and yet we don't see that in 50% of the adults we know. The reason is not that they aren't infected, rather the reason is that our assumptions driven by the hype of herpes are inconsistent with the reality that most people simply are never aware they are infected. For the majority of people infected our bodies seem to hold the virus in check.

That hype is similar to the media hype about those who get infected with HIV from a single fuck. Who the hell can claim that? The porn stars only fucked once??? Right. How many fucks did the porn star have with the porn starlet. Did he fuck no other people? Did the women he supposedly fucked fuck no other men? How can such broad statements be made about a porn star and how he was infected with HIV?

Several studies have been done of couples where one is infected and the other not. They attempt to determine how many instances of intercourse happen before the other becomes infected. There are many variables, so there is variation in the results. But the ones I've seen all come to the conclusion that it takes multiple fucks, far more than ten, and probably hundreds to reliably transmit HIV. This agrees with the knowledge about how HIV works and how most people have become infected. Most of those infected have many different partners and fuck often. HIV does not survive well out of the body and needs direct and repeated bodily fluid transfer. The most efficient way to transmit HIV is through intravenous drug use, direct blood to blood injection. The second most efficient transmission method is repeated anal sex.

The media loves to hype. That's how they make their money. The science of STDs is nothing like how they are portrayed in the media. Holier than thou media warriors latch onto any report of HIV transmitted by a single instance and run with it like a dog with a T-bone. To take the word of a porn star in Brazil as gospel...oh my!

[eurotrash]

I started barebacking recently with a couple. They didn't say anything about condoms. The chemistry was right. It just happened.

I ejaculate where she wants it

I prefer sex without a condom in general, so, of course, I prefer playing with couples without a condom.

[appliancesex]

wow. talk about food for thought.

p and i were reading this and we didn't even realize that there was such a thing as 'bareback couples.' now i feel like the noob.

when we saw people at first posting about how condoms don't offer much protection against stds, we did google it. for those interested in reading the documentation on condoms and stds, here you go:

new england journal of medicine:
condoms and sexually transmitted infections

cdc:
male latex condoms and sexually transmitted diseases (pdf)

that said, people randomly posting hypothetical statistics, you should know that 80% of statistics are made up, and there is only a 50% chance of that.

anyhoo, we use condoms for intercourse with others, but ironically never use it for oral sex, which is ironic since that's worse than vaginal/anal intercourse. we can't stand the taste of plastic in our mouth, and nonoxyl-9 numbs the hell out of my mouth.

that said, if a bicycle helmet would increase my chance of survival during a plane crash even in the slightest bit, i would still wear it if given the chance.

anyway, this is the only form of safe sex anyway

[slevin]

Where do you see statistics that say oral sex has higher STD transmission rates than vaginal/anal? Everything I have found in my research says exactly the opposite.

[The Fuse]

A close friend of mine recently told me he got herpes as a young man, something like 19 or 21 years old. He gave it to another woman before he realized what it was.

This friend has been married for almost two decades. He says he only has breakouts a few times a year. Also, surprisingly, he has managed his condition well enough to have never given it to his wife. They don't have sex when he has sores. He's also had more than one long-term affair (not with me!) and has never given it to any of his lovers after the one mentioned above, when he didn't realize he had herpes. And he doesn't use condoms with his wife or any of the women he has affairs with.

I realize this is anecdotal and second-hand (or third-hand). But it's at least one case where in spite of hundreds of "fucks", he's not transmitted herpes to anyone.

Oh, and yes, this seems highly unlikely. But I believe him.

[appliancesex]

Originally Posted by slevin

Where do you see statistics that say oral sex has higher STD transmission rates than vaginal/anal? Everything I have found in my research says exactly the opposite.

hiya slevin,

sorry for the delay. p and i went to sedona for the evening. wish there was someone we could have enjoyed our private jacuzzi with. but i digress. to answer your questions:

oral manifestations of orogenital bacterial infections
basically suggests that gonorrhea and syphilis are commonly transferred through unprotected oral sex...

oral viral infections that could be transmitted oro-genitally
suggests that hpv can be transmitted orally.

tonsils may help transmit HIV during oral sex - new scientist article
exactly what it sounds like.

risk of hiv Infection through receptive oral sex - university of california, san francisco

cdc has a page seemingly aimed at teens about chlamydia and it states it can be transmitted anally, vaginally or orally

all that said, we will continue to not use condoms during oral sex. for one thing, the use of a barrier definitely makes it more difficult to bring either a woman or a man off as it creates some desensitization. the last thing i need is my jaw to fall asleep during my time with either a man or a woman.

just curious. but where did you get your research from?