For Those Willing To Play With Others With Herpes, How Should It Be Disclosed?

[crazykatie]

Hi all! At the risk of getting completely flamed, I have a question for the community as a whole (which is why I posted here and not the STD section).

My husband and I have recently started to investigate expanding our circle of play partners. There is one big stumbling block. I contracted Herpes in my early twenties. So, we constantly face the challenge of finding couples willing to play with me. I have absolutely no idea how I would even raise the issue in a club or meet and greet setting (which is what we are specifically interested in attending).

Here are the questions....

For those of you who have willingly played with someone who admitted to being infected, when and how was the issue raised with you? Was the disclosure handled well or could it have been handled better?

***

Please, I really don't want this thread to get high-jacked into yet another herpes debate (play, no play, condoms, etc.). The fact is that a large percentage of the population has herpes and most don't even know it. So, most of you who think you are playing with completely "clean" partners are just fooling yourself. However, I understand that there is a difference in knowingly and unknowingly playing with an infected partner. I am not out to change your opinion.

Katie

[havefuninsun]

Hi Katie,

I'm not sure if you are interested in "internet dating" sites, but I've seen a lot of profiles on SLS where the couple discloses that one or both are infected with herpes. So those who contact them have that information, full disclosure.

If I were in your shoes, I probably would have a very firm "no play on the first meeting" rule. That way, you have an opportunity to talk to the other couple and disclose the information then. Then everyone has a chance to make a good decision with the head on their shoulders and not other body parts.

I know the statistics with herpes is astounding; I really hope folks are upfront with us, but like you said, some people might know even know. But I would be very VERY upset if a couple or person had knowledge of a communicable disease and did not share that information.

Good luck!

[crazykatie]

Hi Havefun! Thanks for the note. But, my question is more directed to the meet & greet or club scene.

We have looked around a number of sites and have noted a few people are up front about it. Of course, there is no easy way to search for the disclosure; so it is kind of hit and miss in terms of finding them. The number of profiles confessing to be infected is small compared to what the statistics say should be the case. So we assume that a large number of couples elect to keep the information to themselves at least until they e-mail, IM, etc. (or never say anything at all).

For a while, we assumed that anyone who did not expressly describe themselves as "D/D free and looking for the same" was probably infected, comfortable with playing with the infected, or enjoyed some smoke...LOL. Of course, that isn't completely true either.

[couple4fun2821]

Hey Katie... That is a really good question and I am kinda suprised there have not been more of a response. I don't have an answer but more of a suggestion. Everyone we know in the lifestyle is very open as I am sure you know. We are all aware that these diseases can be contracted by anyone of us, so I don't think that people will or should look down on you for having it. I would honestly just tell them..... If you find some couples that you are interested in just casually bring it up. It might be a deal breaker for some but it should not be something you are emberassed about at all. Heck We had one couple that said no to us after the cloths were off and he was already inside my wife, just because I am uncercumsized. So go figure...

[SouthBond]

We have been playing with other couples for 22 years and never had any type of STD. And it's not luck, it is being very careful with whom we play. What is great about you is that you are being upfront with your situation. If you have enough self control, we feel that you can participate in a modified version of swinging that takes into consideration your health condition.

[crazykatie]

I am somewhat disappointed that only one posting has offered constructive advice on when and how best to raise the issue in a club or meet and greet setting (my original question). So, I guess I need to re-phrase it somewhat…. :surrender

For those of you who are experienced swingers, whether you would play with a couple knowing they have herpes or not, when and how would you most like the couple with herpes to disclose their condition to you when visiting either a club or attending a meet and greet?

One the one hand, we would like to be open and honest. On the other hand, we don’t want to wear shirts to these events announcing to the world our condition. So, when and how should the topic be discussed?

I guess an additional questions is: Has anyone ever had a couple at a meet and greet or a club disclose to you that they have herpes? In your view, was the disclosure handled well? If not, how could it or should it have been handled better?

Katie

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

I guess an additional questions is: Has anyone ever had a couple at a meet and greet or a club disclose to you that they have herpes?

Hi Katie, We've never had anyone disclose to us that they had herpes, or anything else. I have a feeling that the majority in the lifestyle who have it (those who know), just don't play when they have an outbreak, and otherwise don't talk about it.

There was an occasion when I saw an outbreak at a swinger's event. It was a person with a huge outbreak on the mouth. Others at the event noticed, said things, and just avoided that person. The one with the outbreak seemed oblivious.

I'd like to answer your main question, how/when to disclose and how best to handle it in a club/meet setting, but to be honest, I just don't know for sure. Nobody's ever disclosed to us. My sense is, wait until you're engaged enough with a certain couple to know there's attraction and that the other couple is interested, and then let them know (before anyone gets naked). Offer to answer questions if they have any, because many people seem very misinformed.

In reality though, I think that regulars in clubs and groups talk a lot amongst themselves, and right or wrong, will probably stigmatize a disclosing couple. I think this is why most swingers would rather convince themselves that they've never been exposed, or just put it out of their minds.

Even among swingers who should know better (we should all educate ourselves), there are still a lot of people around who believe that fever blisters aren't really herpes. There are people who don't believe that a fever blister on the mouth can cause genital herpes in a partner. There are people who don't know that often with genital herpes, the infected area is outside of the reach of a condom (like next to the base of the penis, or on the outer labia).

Worst of all, a lot of swingers think that if they choose their partners carefully (screening them, being friends with them), they'll protect themselves from STD's. But the fact is, a lot of people have herpes and don't even know it. They sincerely call themselves D/D free. The CDC site says, "Most people infected with HSV-2 are not aware of their infection." and "Most individuals with HSV-2 infection may never have sores, or they may have very mild signs that they do not even notice or that they mistake for insect bites or another skin condition."

So, regardless of how carefully people choose partners, and as widespread as it is, most of us who swing will end up being with people who have it and/or have been exposed to it. Because of this, I think it's unfair if someone like you is being honest and being as careful as they can to not spread it, would get stigmatized for their honesty.

[tribbles]

I'd want to know as soon as we showed an interest in you. Right now, we test neg (blood) and have no symptoms to say it's a false neg. We would like to keep it that way. So we would have to all move on for the evening. Or we would offer a watch, be watched no touching play.

I'd say tell people really quickly, up front, and expect the 'word' to travel some as well.

One thing I'd say not to do is spend an evening, flirting and teasing and then near the end of the evening speak up about it. Couples who don't swap but tease the nite away get told to warn people up front that they are just into the flirt and tease, and I would say you two need to do that as well.

And no one has ever disclosed that they are HSV-2 postive but a few people have said, they are getting over a cold sore (type 1) and not playing tonight, they are just out to socialize for the evening. And they tell us that, when they hug us hello.

[crazykatie]

Hi Tybee; thank you for the very, very thoughtful response. Hi tribbles; thank you for your candor.

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

In reality though, I think that regulars in clubs and groups talk a lot amongst them, and right or wrong, will probably stigmatize a disclosing couple. I think this is why most swingers would rather convince themselves that they've never been exposed, or just put it out of their minds.

Originally Posted by tribbles

I'd say tell people really quickly, up front, and expect the 'word' to travel some as well.

Ouch! We never even considered this point. But, I think you are saying that if you are honest with some couple, one should assume that everyone at a club or in a particular meet and greet group will eventually know. Does this mean that even if someone or some couple were inclined to play with an infected couple, they wouldn't openly associate with that couple for fear of being stigmatized by virtue of association?

If lifestyle couples are willing to stigmatize an honest couple, why should any couple willingly choose to be honest? I guess we won't be going to any clubs or meet & greets any time soon.....

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

I have a feeling that the majority in the lifestyle who have it (those who know), just don't play when they have an outbreak, and otherwise don't talk about it.

This is certainly the advice that we have received from a number of seasoned swingers. I guess I am starting to understand why (though I don't think I will be able to ever adopt this approach myself). On the one hand, I read posts about STDs and how angry people would be if there was not full disclosure. But, on the other hand, it appears clear that honesty brands one a pariah. As a result, I am absolutely certain that any couple wanting to play would think long and hard about disclosure, particularly in light of the very, very limited risk of infection in absence of an outbreak with suppressive therapy and the use of condoms. It would be easy to convince oneself that, given the risk of infection approaches zero, so does the need for disclosure.

Still, I understand why a "clean" couple who wanted to remain very active in the lifestyle would likely decline to knowingly play with an infected couple under any set of circumstances.... I guess I am coming to understand that no one will talk openly or honestly about STDs in a club or meet & greet environment because doing so will likely be akin to a decision never to play there ever.

[crazykatie]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

Still, I understand why a "clean" couple who wanted to remain very active in the lifestyle would likely decline to knowingly play with an infected couple under any set of circumstances.... I guess I am coming to understand that no one will talk openly or honestly about STDs in a club or meet & greet environment because doing so will likely be akin to a decision never to play there ever.

After reading this over, it dawned on me....

I guess I now also understand why a "clean" couple who might otherwise be willing to play with an infected couple would prefer to play with an infected couple who is "in the closet" (not disclosing the infection) than one who is honest. The resulting guilt by association might tarnish their own image. Also, if they knowingly played with an infected couple, wouldn't they then feel obligated to disclose that fact to other couples in the future?

WOW...the more I think the ramification through, the more I understand why no one talks about this....

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

We never even considered this point. But, I think you are saying that if you are honest with some couple, one should assume that everyone at a club or in a particular meet and greet group will eventually know. Does this mean that even if someone or some couple were inclined to play with an infected couple, they wouldn't openly associate with that couple for fear of being stigmatized by virtue of association?

I'm afraid so. Truth be told, in most settings where people are known (regulars), often people are judged based on who they've been with, or even who they may have been with.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

If lifestyle couples are willing to stigmatize an honest couple, why should any couple willingly choose to be honest?

Yes, this is hitting the nail right on the head. This (I believe) why we have never had a couple disclose anything to us. It's a real catch-22, isn't it?

Originally Posted by crazykatie

I guess I now also understand why a "clean" couple who might otherwise be willing to play with an infected couple would prefer to play with an infected couple who is "in the closet" (not disclosing the infection) than one who is honest. The resulting guilt by association might tarnish their own image. Also, if they knowingly played with an infected couple, wouldn't they then feel obligated to disclose that fact to other couples in the future?

Yes, it does get complicated the more you think about it, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by crazykatie

WOW...the more I think the ramification through, the more I understand why no one talks about this....

Originally Posted by crazykatie

I guess we won't be going to any clubs or meet & greets any time soon.....

I hope that my honesty in responses (or anyone else's honesty) doesn't deter you from going out and having a good time. There are so many ways to meet people. There are ways to let people get to know you, and to know what kind of precautions you do take. For example, you mentioned here toward the end that you take supressive therapy. I read on the CDC website that does help prevent passing it to others, along with avoiding sexual contact during outbreaks, etc. I'll bet that in reality, an honest and careful person such as yourself is safer as a partner than the many who are in denial and aren't so careful.

Here is a thought: have a personal ad or ads that are honest, and include positive details (such as the use of supressive therapy). Go have fun, mingle and meet at clubs, too. You and your husband can have sex with each other there to spice things up. You could state a preference to people in clubs that you like to "get to know them better" before you play with others. When you meet a great couple at a club, you could ask them to check you out online, and see about meeting again in the future. This would give them a chance to read about you and the facts (how you manage it), and to write you and ask questions if they want. It would give them time to think it over, rather than having them process all of this info on-the-spot in a club. Does that make sense? In fact, there are a lot of couples who have a preference of meeting socially and just having fun at on-premise clubs, but waiting to have sex with others for more intimate settings at another time.

I think in your shoes, this would be the most appealing way to go about it.

Hugs!

[crazykatie]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

I hope that my honesty in responses (or anyone else's honesty) doesn't deter you from going out and having a good time.

I don’t think your honesty will deter us. But, the reality of the situation as I now understand it may.

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

There are ways to let people get to know you, and to know what kind of precautions you do take. For example, you mentioned here toward the end that you take suppressive therapy…..Go have fun, mingle and meet at clubs, too. You and your husband can have sex with each other there to spice things up. You could state a preference to people in clubs that you like to "get to know them better" before you play with others. When you meet a great couple at a club, you could ask them to check you out online, and see about meeting again in the future. This would give them a chance to read about you and the facts (how you manage it), and to write you and ask questions if they want. It would give them time to think it over, rather than having them process all of this info on-the-spot in a club. Does that make sense? In fact, there are a lot of couples who have a preference of meeting socially and just having fun at on-premise clubs, but waiting to have sex with others for more intimate settings at another time.

I don’t see how this avoids the stigma issue. As I now see it, there are three “types” of couples we might meet at a club: 1) a couple who is clean and does not want to play with an infected couple no matter how minimal the health risks; 2) a couple who is clean but would be willing to play; 3) a couple who is infected.

No matter what one says or does, type 1) couples will never want to play. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As I said earlier in the thread, I am not intent on changing anybody’s mind about anything.

The problem with type 2) and 3) couples is not the actual risk of the herpes. For them, the real barrier to playing is the resulting stigma of being seen in the company with someone who is known to be infected by the “regulars”—many of whom may decide to cease playing with them because of the association. So, it doesn’t matter how delicately one handles the disclosure, once you are honest—and mark yourself as infected—you become a leaper with whom one cannot be seen to associate.

Also, if you delay the ultimate disclosure, some type 1) couples will be angry with you for leading them on or wasting their time. I could see these feelings fueling a race to let the other “regulars” know that you are infected and should be avoided because, not only are you infected, but you also waste people’s time.

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

I read on the CDC website that does help prevent passing it to others, along with avoiding sexual contact during outbreaks, etc. I'll bet that in reality, an honest and careful person such as yourself is safer as a partner than the many who are in denial and aren't so careful.

No one has done a study to fully investigate the transmission risk from viral “shedding” when both suppressive therapy and condoms are used. It is unlikely that such a study will be conducted anytime soon because herpes simply does not pose a significant health risk to the general population.

Fundamentally, I know that we present a lower risk of transmission than sexual partners with an asymptomatic case and who, therefore, are unaware that they are infected (which is something between 20% and 25% of the population). But, we clearly present a higher risk than someone who is not infected at all. So, for type 1) couples, knowingly playing with an infected couple creates an unreasonable risk even though they intellectually know that they have a one in five chance of playing with someone who is infected and doesn’t even know it. It also creates an inconvenient truth that they then have to consider sharing with their future sexual partners. It is better to be ignorant of the fact than knowledgeable.

[tribbles]

Is it really so bad if everyone knows? You tell one couple and they tell one and it reaches every swinger within 20 miles...so what? You would have told them anyways..... Does it need to be a secret that only a few know?

When we started swinging, we were told that our hair would be an issue (we don't shave anywhere). It is for some. We still quickly tell people if we are fully dressed so that they don't find out we have hair after they want to play. We are now rather well known by our choice of natural and people even mention they heard about us. Some seek us out facelick

He also has the issue of coming rather fast at times....well, we worried over that and finally just told people. Now playmates might remark "you are having a good nite" if he is lasting awhile.

She only cums with a vibrator...one of the big ones. We worried about that too, in the beginning. And we still tell people upfront and it's accepted by most. Not all. Oh well...this is who we are. We aren't going to fake it or hide it.

No these are not the same as a virus. But that is your issue, as these were ours. Having herpes means you will weed out the less honest playmates. You will find others with it. You can find acceptance if you are just up front and go for it.

[crazykatie]

Originally Posted by tribbles

Is it really so bad if everyone knows? You tell one couple and they tell one and it reaches every swinger within 20 miles...so what? You would have told them anyways..... Does it need to be a secret that only a few know?

For starters…it is not the business of everyone within 20 miles or 100 miles. It is the business of couples with whom we choose to share the information.

Originally Posted by tribbles

When we started swinging, we were told that our hair would be an issue (we don't shave anywhere). It is for some. We still quickly tell people if we are fully dressed so that they don't find out we have hair after they want to play. We are now rather well known by our choice of natural and people even mention they heard about us. Some seek us out facelick

Yes…and some couples undoubtedly choose not to play with you. But, I am willing to bet that no one is likely to choose not to play with a couple who has decided to play with you because they played with you and because everyone knows that you don’t shave. The difference here is that the stigma (as I understand Tybee) is such that couples who might otherwise be willing to play with us won’t—not because we are infected—but because we are known to be infected.

Originally Posted by tribbles

He also has the issue of coming rather fast at times....well, we worried over that and finally just told people. Now playmates might remark "you are having a good nite" if he is lasting awhile.

Yes…same point as above.

Originally Posted by tribbles

She only cums with a vibrator...one of the big ones. We worried about that too, in the beginning. And we still tell people upfront and it's accepted by most. Not all. Oh well...this is who we are. We aren't going to fake it or hide it.

Yes…same point as above.

Originally Posted by tribbles

No these are not the same as a virus. But that is your issue, as these were ours. Having herpes means you will weed out the less honest playmates. You will find others with it. You can find acceptance if you are just up front and go for it.

I don’t think you are getting the point here….if there is a stigma associated with being infected such that our condition will quickly be known by all, then that stigma will inhibit couples from playing even if the mere fact of the infection does not bother them.

You have been candid in your posting. You tell me….if you were a regular at a club, knew that a particular couple was infected, and saw another regular couple associating and playing with that couple….wouldn’t it affect how you look at the regular couple that chose to associate with the infected couple?

Originally Posted by tribbles

Right now, we test neg (blood) and have no symptoms to say it's a false neg. We would like to keep it that way.

I assume from you prior posting that you have no intention of playing with anyone who you know to be infected, whether they are experiencing an outbreak or not, whether they are on a suppressive therapy or not, whether you use condoms or not. The risk, in your mind, of catching the bug is too high no matter what. Correct? But, doesn’t that mean that you have to avoid not only contact with the infected but also those who might choose to play with the infected?? How can you know that they have not become infected by virtue of their interaction?

[tribbles]

You tell me….if you were a regular at a club, knew that a particular couple was infected, and saw another regular couple associating and playing with that couple….wouldn’t it affect how you look at the regular couple that chose to associate with the infected couple?

Yes. And yes, we would start wondering about other who played with who and how large our risk was. Heck, we do anyway cuz we are already taking major risks...we have played with people we KNOW don't use condoms...with us or anyone...who go to Hedo and Europe and play. Every once in a while it kinda freaks me out.

In a big enough club tho, I bet there are people HSV + and they are careful to only be with others who are. Maybe that is the group who come to the party, socialize and talk and never play. They meet up later to play with people they got to know at the party.

For starters…it is not the business of everyone within 20 miles or 100 miles. It is the business of couples with whom we choose to share the information.

Welcome to a rerun of High School in some ways. People will know things about you that you don't expect.

My point is, you can let this totally stop you from playing with anyone, anytime, in anyway. Or you can find a way to work with what ya got.

We worked with our issues and have found lots of fun. I think you can do the same.