Why do couples play without condoms in 2007??

[lott]

Originally Posted by good times

Just by posing the question that you did you have indicated strongly that you are uninformed about the risks, and more importantly the amount of protection that condoms provide. The reason I say that, is that were you reasonably informed about the risks, and even if the ridiculous suggestion by your friend were true and this couple were HIV positive, and you had sex with them without condoms, as long as you had no contributing factors like open sores or cuts in your genital area, even the most pessimistic expert would rate your risk very low of contracting HIV through vaginal sex. furthermore, the chances of running into another swinger who has HIV/AIDS is also so remotely infinitesimal as to be a non-issue to most.

Now to be clear, their are some other Non-curable std's that you are much more likely to run into in the swinging community, like HSV (Herpes) and HPV. The important thing to know about these is that, condoms provide an insignificant amount of protection against their transmission. Once one knows this, it is no surprise that some would not consider vaginal sex with condoms to be significantly safer than vaginal sex without condoms. In other words, if you have sex with someone with an active outbreak of genital Herpes or HPV, wearing a condom will more than likely not keep you from contracting it.

Personally, I think that people that feel that using condoms somehow reduces their risks of contracting the std's one might encounter while swinging are suffering from a severe case of wishful thinking. On the other hand, I can fully understand how someone might rationally come to the conclusion that overall they are taking slightly less risk by using condoms than not, based on the widely varying information available. It is also true that condoms can be effective against some of the more common vaginal infections that one might encounter. So, I don't have any problem with folks that require condom use, and if I wish to play with them I will readily comply with their wishes. I also don't have any problem with people who have decided that condoms don't provide a significant enough reduction in risk to justify their use either. In my opinion, this is one of those things that each individual must decide for themselves, and neither decision is incorrect.

I'm not here to make a person out to be bad because they choose not to where a condom BUT to say that the risk isn't that significant without one seems crazy to me(NO disrespect).

Hiv can be spread in other ways besides having a open sore or cut in the vagina. When you take into account that when someone is thrusting in and out of the vagina or especially the anal area and the lubrication might not be up to par, minor tears are created and this is a way for the virus to get to the penis either through minor tears on the penis or through the urethra.

Also, if someone has another std and you get it, your chances of getting hiv is higher just simply due to the immune system trying to fight off the other std. Now condoms themselves aren't 100% safe BUT you can add other things such as enhancing your immune system and applying certain oils to the skin to prevent the std's from getting into the blood. Unfortunately most people including doctors don't know about this unless they stay up to date with research and use common sense on how to apply this knowledge. Enhancing the immune system is something that should be talked about more because our bodies are VERY POWERFUL against disease when they have the chemicals needed for it to function at an optimum level. The sad thing is most people don't have a strong immune system and therefore it's a major cause of why diseases are so wide spread. Most of this is from a less than stellar diet. Just the other day it was reported that soda was carcinogenic especially when vitamin C is given with it. This makes sense because I have suspected for a while that simple sugars taken in a high amount with lack of fiber, fat , protein and phytonutrients, are a cause of inflammation which is the cause of disease.

As far as herpes and hpv, yes you can still get these diseases with a condom on BUT only where the condom isn't around. Some people have herpes in and just outside the vaginal area and a condom will protect you from contracting it if you have one on. Also, hpv occur in most women's cervix and if you're a man who hits this area, you spread the virus to your penis head and this is most likely the reason why hpv is so wide spread which is due to men passing it on to the cervix, which is rich in blood and an easy pathway into the body. You can also get these skin diseases even when there are no signs of outbreak due to the skin shedding right before an outbreak occures as well as from oral sex.

I feel that if technology has made it to where people can have fun and still protect themselves every way possible, why not do it. If someone thinks less of you because you want to be safe then they have internal problems they need to work out.

Anything negative that we are taught is bad, there is a positive item to help you enjoy it, such as smoking and sex. For smoking you can use a hookah with some strong brewed tea in it instead of straight water to prevent the smoke from slowing down the lungs functiong and also stabilizing free radicals due to the tannins in the tea and the water itself cooling off the hot gases or you can use an aquafilter for cigarettes or a vaporizer to prevent ANY smoke but still enjoying your herbs or tobacco.

For sex, you can use thin japanese condoms or whatever floats your boat. With a little lube inside the condom they feel EXCELLENT. You can use sheer glyde dam to perfom oral sex and still be safe yet still feel the sensations that come from licking and touching.

Sex is all about feeling and swinging or shall I say group sex, is the ultimate in experiencing these feeling because everyone is having the same experience which is powerful. Unfortunately, these feeling don't last all day and therefore, I would hate to have sex unprotected and get something knowing that I will have this forever yet the experience was only temporary.

Even if it's just a minor std, I don't want the pain if I can avoid it. I think a lot of people might not use condoms and dams because they don't want to be looked at as weird or scary and just go along with the flow and the others just don't know about the tools out there that can protect you and still feel good. It's all about KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM. Without these two things you will be lost and used by others for their benefit. Peace.

[lookingfornow]

Why is it that I feel like each side of this debate is constantly trying to convince the other of the rightness of their position? :surrender

The question isn't right versus wrong. It is risk versus benefit. For some, the benefit (greater sensation playing without a condom) isn't justified given the risk. For others the risk does not warrant foregoing the benefit.

I find it interesting that the no-condom crowd rarely start these debates. It is almost always the pro-condom forces that seem compelled to paint everyone who doesn't see it their way as ignorant or suicidal--like no sane person could ever do an in depth investigation into the issue and reach any other possible conclusion.

One of the things that makes this country great is that whatever happens to be right for one person doesn't necessarily have to be right for another. We still have a number of individual freedoms, including the freedom to use a condom when we feel like it and not use one (very, very rarely) when we don't. I think we are WISE enough to know what is right for us and resent the implication by either side that their ideas of what is right should be ours.

[good times]

I agree with lookingfornow on this issue, but wanted to make a couple of points regarding Lott's post.

Originally Posted by lott

Hiv can be spread in other ways besides having a open sore or cut in the vagina. When you take into account that when someone is thrusting in and out of the vagina or especially the anal area and the lubrication might not be up to par, minor tears are created and this is a way for the virus to get to the penis either through minor tears on the penis or through the urethra.

That is why I specifically specified "vaginal sex", while tearing is common with anal sex it is relatively rare with vaginal sex. Therefore, In our version of safer sex we do not do anal sex at all.

Originally Posted by lott

As far as herpes and hpv, yes you can still get these diseases with a condom on BUT only where the condom isn't around. Some people have herpes in and just outside the vaginal area and a condom will protect you from contracting it if you have one on. Also, hpv occur in most women's cervix and if you're a man who hits this area, you spread the virus to your penis head and this is most likely the reason why hpv is so wide spread which is due to men passing it on to the cervix, which is rich in blood and an easy pathway into the body. You can also get these skin diseases even when there are no signs of outbreak due to the skin shedding right before an outbreak occures as well as from oral sex.

That conclusion is not supported by the majority of the studies done to date, especially in the case of HPV, all the legitimate studies but one have shown that condom use provides a statistically insignificant reduction in the transfer of the virus. The one 18 month study that claims to show that condom use helps prevent the spread of HPV is not very well respected by research professionals, but it is the most often referenced study by the condom use advocates. While I have seen the assertion made before on places like the CDC site, that if you cover up the herpes outbreak with a condom it will reduce the chances of spreading, none of the conclusions that I have seen by actual researchers have made this claim. The reason for this is that the shed virus is easily transported by Vaginal fluid, touching with hands or other body parts, towels and clothing, and yes, even toilet seats. An interesting statistic to me, is that one of the most common places for a male to contract herpes is around the base of the penis, and a fairly common place for women is on the butt cheeks.

[lott]

good times, when I mentioned minor tears I was referring to vaginal sex also because I notice A LOT of people don't let a woman build up to the required amount of lubrication that's needed to be "slick" when having sex especially when it's done for a long time and a lot of thrusting is happening and therefore tears will be made, they will just be microscopic but this is enough for viruses to travel. When lube is used this is rarely a problem though.

You still have to take into account that the vaginal fluid can contain the virus. The probability is high if a woman immune system isn't at it's optimum and when she is ovulating due to her vaginal secretions being more alkaline which let viruses and bacteria survive. When she isn't ovulating her secretions are more acidic which prevents std's from occuring.

As far as studies showing condoms not that effective for hpv, I read articles publsihed on ncbi.com and these articles are the actual research being published and I have seen a lot stating condoms help prevent as well as promote regression of cervical lesions from hpv. Here they are:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16790697

Condom use and the risk of genital human papillomavirus infection in young women.

* Winer RL,
* Hughes JP,
* Feng Q,
* O'Reilly S,
* Kiviat NB,
* Holmes KK,
* Koutsky LA.

Department of Epidemiology, University of Washington, Seattle, USA. rlw@u.washington.edu

BACKGROUND: To evaluate whether the use of male condoms reduces the risk of male-to-female transmission of human papillomavirus (HPV) infection, longitudinal studies explicitly designed to evaluate the temporal relationship between condom use and HPV infection are needed. METHODS: We followed 82 female university students who reported their first intercourse with a male partner either during the study period or within two weeks before enrollment. Cervical and vulvovaginal samples for HPV DNA testing and Papanicolaou testing were collected at gynecologic examinations every four months. Every two weeks, women used electronic diaries to record information about their daily sexual behavior. Cox proportional-hazards models were used to evaluate risk factors for HPV infection. RESULTS: The incidence of genital HPV infection was 37.8 per 100 patient-years at risk among women whose partners used condoms for all instances of intercourse during the eight months before testing, as compared with 89.3 per 100 patient-years at risk in women whose partners used condoms less than 5 percent of the time (adjusted hazard ratio, 0.3; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.1 to 0.6, adjusted for the number of new partners and the number of previous partners of the male partner). Similar associations were observed when the analysis was restricted to high-risk and low-risk types of HPV and HPV types 6, 11, 16, and 18. In women reporting 100 percent condom use by their partners, no cervical squamous intraepithelial lesions were detected in 32 patient-years at risk, whereas 14 incident lesions were detected during 97 patient-years at risk among women whose partners did not use condoms or used them less consistently. CONCLUSIONS: Among newly sexually active women, consistent condom use by their partners appears to reduce the risk of cervical and vulvovaginal HPV infection. Copyright 2006 Massachusetts Medical Society.

PMID: 16790697 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Condom use promotes regression of cervical intraepithelial neoplasia and clearance of human papillomavirus: a randomized clinical trial.

* Hogewoning CJ,
* Bleeker MC,
* van den Brule AJ,
* Voorhorst FJ,
* Snijders PJ,
* Berkhof J,
* Westenend PJ,
* Meijer CJ.

Department of Gynaecology and Obstetrics, Albert Schweitzer Hospital, Dordrecht, the Netherlands.

Women with persistent HPV infections have increased risk of progressive CIN lesions. Transmission of HPV between sexual partners might maintain viral infection and, consequently, may influence the clinical course of CIN. We investigated the effect of condom use on regression of CIN lesions and on clearance of HPV. Women with CIN and their male sexual partners were randomized for condom use (condom group n = 72 and noncondom group n = 76). They were conservatively managed and followed every 3-6 months by colposcopy, cytology and HPV testing by GP5+/6+ PCR. Baseline cervical biopsy specimens were taken. Median follow-up time for women was 15.2 months (range 3.0-85.4). Outcomes of interest were clinical regression of CIN at colposcopy and clearance of HPV. Outcomes were assessed in 64 women of the condom group and 61 women of the noncondom group. Women in the condom group showed a 2-year cumulative regression rate of 53% vs. 35% in the noncondom group (p = 0.03). The 2-year cumulative rates of HPV clearance were 23% vs. 4%, respectively (p = 0.02). Although lower regression rates were found if women were HPV-positive and had > or =CIN2 lesions at baseline, effects of condom use were found both in women with CIN1 and in women with > or =CIN2 lesions. Condom use promotes regression of CIN lesions and clearance of HPV. Copyright 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 14566832 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[lott]

Originally Posted by good times

The reason for this is that the shed virus is easily transported by Vaginal fluid, touching with hands or other body parts, towels and clothing, and yes, even toilet seats. An interesting statistic to me, is that one of the most common places for a male to contract herpes is around the base of the penis, and a fairly common place for women is on the butt cheeks.

I do agree that this can happen BUT like I stated earlier, there are oils that can be applied to the skin to help prevent the virus from getting into the skin cell such as coconut oil and essential oils. These oils can be applied up to a few hours before a session and after the session also to prevent the virus as well as bacteria from surviving due to them attaching to the virus' membrane and breaking it down. It's also GREAT for the skin.

Having a diet rich in fruits ,vegetables, spices and herbs will also reduce your chances of getting an std due to your immune system being enhanced as well as the phytochemicals they have being antiviral and antibacterial themselves. Peace.

[good times]

You found it lot, without trying to run down the actual study to verify it for sure, I believe that is the study I was referring to that most don't consider very reliable. The reason for that is that it was too small a group and for too short of a time. they use terms like patient years to cover the fact that it was an extremely small, short term study. Other problems with it are how they corrected the numbers to make them come out the way they wanted them to. For example; for one of their correction factors, they relied on the males honestly reporting how many previous sex partners they had to the woman they wanted to have sex with. Yea, I bet that is a reliable number.

the Netherlands study, on the other hand, only studied the regression rate of women that were already infected with HPV, so, while it is a very interesting study, I don't really see the relevance to this discussion.

The bottom line though is, if you feel that condoms help prevent these STD's, then, by all means, use them. But as should be obvious from this discussion, rational people can research the available data and come to the conclusion that it isn't worth the effort. In the end, it is a personal decision that everyone has to make for themselves.

[lott]

good times, I really appreciate the fact that we can disagree on this issue without being disrespectful towards each other. It says a lot about you and your interaction with people who you don't agree with. Also, I just have to say that your wife's body is AMAZING. You are a lucky man.

As for the study, I found a cbs news article going into detail about it and it states the study was the most detail that has been done on hpv and condoms so far. It was done in a three year period.

One thing that I think is important is that most young women who have a good immune system can kill the virus, until another type comes back, eventually BUT women over 30 who might not have an optimum immune system will have a higher chance of getting lesions on the cervix which can be deadly in the long run if not caught in time.

Anyway Here is the article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1743115.shtml

"In the HPV study, published in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine, none of the women who reported that their partners always used condoms developed lesions during the three-year period. Fourteen women whose partners used condoms less regularly got lesions.

Twelve of the 42 women who said their partners always used condoms became infected. Rachel Winer, a researcher in the university's epidemiology department, said it could be that the couples did not use the condoms correctly or had some sexual contact before putting on a condom."

The last paragraph is important because it has been shown that hpv can still be transmitted with a condom but I think it was due to oral sex which have been shown to transmit hpv.

These studies can make a person scared to have sex BUT like I keep saying if you enhance your immune system by exercising and constantly take herbs and spices, especially essential oils, as well as fruits and vegetables and choosing who you sleep with by using discrimination as much as possible, and using protection your risk is very low for contracting something.

It's all about having fun while still being safe by reducing your risk for problems.

Here two links on oral sex & HPV done in 10/2004 and 5/2007:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4712

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6639461.stm

[good times]

I agree lot, it is good when we can have a discussion without getting disrespectful of others opinion.

While I tend to be skeptical of anything that news organizations do, I tend to agree with some of the things said in this report but for very different reasons. It is true that this study is one of the few, maybe the only one, that has specifically looked at the effectiveness of condoms in reducing the transmission of HPV. One of the reason for that is most researchers who I have followed that understand how HPV is transfered find the idea that condoms can reduce the risk of transmission ridicules. Furthermore, studying only 82 women, even for three years, is not a very definitive study, it barely qualifies as an interesting observation, in my opinion. I think that the only reason this study gets any attention at all is because people naturally want to believe that if they wear a condom, they are safe.

[Chicup]

Part of the equation can be dose.

Without a doubt a condom will lower your exposure. This is not really a debatable issue.

The issue is that how limiting it is.

While condoms do not make you 100% safe, I assume its safe to say its a number between 1-100% safer and as such its worth it to us to use condoms with new people.

[austxmark]

Interesting thread. Speaking for myself, I would not play with a cpl where I felt there was a risk even using a condom. The chance of a female contracting HIV for a HIV positive male is 1% for a single sex act. This is when the guy is positive for sure. But I do agree its a personal choice for each person. I do not like them but will, of course, respect the womens choice. If she wants them and I do not, then we do not have sex.