What is it with couples who require condoms for penetration but not for oral?

[JandT_Elkhart]

Matter of fact, and I'm no expert but I have researched on just HOW HARD it is to contact an STD thru oral....

And I betcha the chances of catching an STD thru unprotected oral...
is about the same of catching an STD thru PROTECTED intercourse.

I've been doing some searching to see what the estimated percentage risk is for each "technique" but cannot find anything.

I do know that 4 of 1000 condoms (statistically) LEAK. That's about 1/2 of 1 percent.

Assuming that MOST people do NOT use condoms correctly.. and let's all be honest... how many of you get "coochie juice" on the base of your penis or on your groin during a session??

Bodily fluids WILL be transmitted PERIOD.

The idea is to lessen the risk... and the risk of unprotected oral is SO SMALL that the tradeoff isn't worth it, at least IMO.

[lcjtsd]

Intuition897,

You just verified our point. Unprotected oral exposes you to the risk. Also, how about if you place your finger in the other womans' vagina and then grab your penis, or place that finger near your wifes' vagina, etc. It's a good thing you put that condom on, right? You still have to go to the doctor and get a shot or take a pill. What difference is there between catching it in your mouth and throat over the genitals?

One point I will disagree on...the best, and only way, to avoid catching anything at all is to not play at all or only play with yourself .

I feel this is a great discussion and hope others will join in.

LCJTSD

[lcjtsd]

Originally Posted by JandT_Elkhart

Bodily fluids WILL be transmitted PERIOD.

The idea is to lessen the risk... and the risk of unprotected oral is SO SMALL that the tradeoff isn't worth it, at least IMO.

Is it? I remember seeing an episode of "ER" and they did a story about a teenage girl who had an STD in her throat. Her answer was that "Oral sex isn't sex". When a TV show does an episode like this, it is usually to educate people on what can and can't happen. The premise of this story was to tell people that oral sex IS sex and that STD can be transmitted this way. So is the risk "So Small"? I think it happens more frequently than people would like to admit.

Could this be a case of a "Modern Myth" that's been passed around so much that we actually believe it? Hmmmm

LCJTSD

[Chicup]

One must also note that for those of us whos women are still of child bearing age, even on BC, we like an extra layer of protection there.

Duh.

We know the risk of sex, we have limits on how far we take those risks. The primary risk is HIV, as its the only one that kills you directly (untreated syphillis aside), and that requires seminal fluid, and apparently contact with torn mucosa. That alone is a good reason for condoms.

[lcjtsd]

Originally Posted by Chicup

One must also note that for those of us whos women are still of child bearing age, even on BC, we like an extra layer of protection there.

If you look back at our post, we did make the exception of pregnancy.

The HIV issue? Well, is it an issue with the married couples in their mid-thirties and on who have kids, etc.? Personally, if one or both of us were HIV+, the last thing we would be doing is swinging. I think most "swingers" are of the same mind.

So, we feel that the odds of playing with another couple who would be HIV+ is far less than the odds of one who had any other STD. Are we incorrect?

Maybe there is someone who has researched this and can give the percentages.

LCJTSD

[BorisNatasha]

I think the false assumption you are making there is that your sex partners are making the same effort to screen people as you are. Suppose the people you played with last night had a MFM last week with a guy they had just met, who happened to pick up HIV from HIS girlfriend a month earlier... hopefully you see where I'm going. This is how it gets transmitted - a person is contagious before the tests can detect the antibodies. So by not wearing a condom for intercourse you are exposing yourself to that risk, no matter how small that risk might be. Period. In contrast, there was a study in June 2002 that found out of 19,000 instances of oral sex between 2 partners where 1 was known to have HIV, there was not a single transmission of the virus to the partner. So it is proveably safer, although not 100% safe as this study would seem to indicate.

I read somewhere on this site that there is only one instance of a person getting HIV through swinging, and that person was infected by a male who was either bisexual or an IV drug user, can't remember which. The details are fuzzy but I'm sure somebody can chime in here with the specifics and a source.

The other thing I have noticed is that you seem to see risk as a black and white issue, i.e. you either accept all the risk or none of it. You say that by having unprotected oral you have 'exposed yourself to the risk' so why bother with a condom for intercourse. Exposing yourself to some risk by having unprotected oral sex does not mean you have inevitably contracted something, and does not mean you must automatically accept the significantly higher risk of unprotected vaginal intercourse. As Spoo pointed out, the risks are different for the different types of sexual activity, and must be evaluated seperately. The risk isn't always obvious, either. In fact there are some diseases such as HSV2 that are harder to contract via unprotected oral than by PROTECTED vaginal intercourse, in this case simply because the virus is not able to infect the majority of the adult population in that area of their body.

Hope you don't think I am flaming you in any way... just adding my input.

Boris

[lcjtsd]

Boris, no I don't take your post as flaming. Yes, we do see this as a black and white area with no gray in between. From the postings on this site we see that couples involved in swinging are more apt to be tested for STD's more frequently, thus the risk of catching anything is lower. We feel that the number of couples who have been married 15+ years with kids who are HIV+ is very low and then when you factor the percentage of these couples who are swingers, the odds of running into HIV is very, very low. I may be wrong.

Maybe this just isn't for us. Neither one of us like sex with condoms on. We don't see how sex with a paranoid couple can be fun. PLEASE, we're not saying that swingers who insist on condoms are paranoid! But you know there are some who, if the condom broke, would absolutely freak out as their life is going to end tomorrow. We would not want to have to deal with that issue. How can you have a good time if all you're thinking about is whether its going to break or not?

We would rather be with another couple who were as comfortable having sex with us as we would be with them. In four years we have found only one. From the other postings on this site, you would think there would be more. Obviously not.

We realize that everyone determines their own level of risk. We don't think that the risk is that great. Others are of the attitude that everyone has something and most are somewhere in between.

That's all for now.

LCJTSD

[Alura]

Lcjtsd wrote:

We would rather be with another couple who were as comfortable having sex with us as we would be with them. In four years we have found only one. From the other postings on this site, you would think there would be more. Obviously not.

That's fairly consistent with our record of five couples in twenty-five years, Lcjtsd. We probably could have found a lot more had we been willing to change our parameters of swinging. The limited experiences surely were fun, though!


Mr. Alura

[VanHlebar]

Well as others have said already, I think that for MrsVan and I we accept a different level of risk, and oral sex without protection is one that we are willing to accept. That being said, we do always use protection during intercourse. I have had a vasectomy, but I still wear a condom and MrsVan will always use a condom as she can still get pregnant.

I think for us, this is not a Black and White issue, but I do agree with you that the risk of getting an STD might be lower in the swining community than normal, but why risk it? Our bigger concern is pregnancy, and using your logic, if we are going to accept a small percentage of risk here by using a condom and still having intercourse, well then we should just skip the condom go bare and accept what happens. That type of thought process seem illogical to me at best.

As some above already indicated, just because a partner that you choose seems to be safe does not indicate they have been so careful in there selection. It all comes down to what each person is willing to accept in terms of risk. I would never want to impose my risk tolerance onto any other person, not even my wife. As Vegas Lee said, if you don't like the rules that a particular couple has, then just move on without playing with that couple, why stop all together.

-Van

[lcjtsd]

VanHlebar, Go back and look at our posts. We do make the exception for pregnancy concerns. My wife has her tubes tied so that is not an issue with us.

You also reiterated what VegasLee said; "if you don't like the rules that a particular couple has, then just move on without playing with that couple". Therein lies the problem. We have found one couple in FOUR YEARS! The reason? The other couple insists on condoms so they don't catch anything. The confusion? They do oral unprotected! Once again, this makes no sense to us.

VegasLee also stated that there are quite a few couples who play without condoms. Where the heck are they? Do we simply have a case of "Sour Grapes"? Maybe. We would like to play more often. (Who wouldn't LOL)

So, is it OK to catch an STD in your mouth and throat but not on your privates?

LCJTSD

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by lcjtsd

VanHlebar, Go back and look at our posts. We do make the exception for pregnancy concerns. My wife has her tubes tied so that is not an issue with us.

I did read all the posts, wasn't really saying anything towards you as a couple, just giving our reasons for the use. I apologize if that came out wrong in the post.

[QUOT=lcjtsd]So, is it OK to catch an STD in your mouth and throat but not on your privates?[/quote]

Hell no it isn't OK to catch an STD in my mouth or throat or on my privates. I personally am willing to take that level of risk because it is what I am comfortable with. Since I am fixed, I would play without a condom, but I know that most of my partners would not allow this and my wife really would not be pleased with it either AND I do understand the increased risk of STDs in unprotected sex. Those factors make the decision for me simple.

I understand your frustration in not finding partners based on your rules, but it would seem to me that changing your rules to fit the norm here would be easier than getting the vast majority to change their. Not that that is what I am advocating at all, so please don't read that last statement as a flame or statement that you must change. I really don't feel anyone should change their rules to fit any other couple period. Bottom line is this is supposed to be fun, if you aren't having fun then stop, which I think your first post indicated also. I truely wish you guys the best of luck and hope that you are able to find others that are willing to accept the same rules that you set.

-Van

[lcjtsd]

VanHlebar, We're not trying to make anyone fit our rules, we are just curious and trying to understand this rule that couples have. Maybe I just have a thick skull but it just doesn't make sense to me. Others have mentioned the HIV scare. OK. But I feel that the odds of HIV in the swinging community are so remote to almost be a non-issue. If anyone has info to the contrary, please let me know. We feel you are more likely to meet someone who has the more common STD's, most of which can be caught via oral sex. Hence, why bother with the condom?

Yes, this is supposed to be fun for all. Everyone agrees on that. As I said in a previous post, I would hate to be in a situation where the condom broke and the other couple freaked out. I don't see that kind of drama as fun. How can we avoid this drama? By finding other like-minded couples who also do not use condoms. From many of the other post on this site dealing with Cream Pies, seconds, etc, there seem to be quite a few who also enjoy this. It just seems that they live everywhere else but Las Vegas .

LCJTSD

[magnum]

Originally Posted by lcjtsd

This is the wife writing. I am venting and ranting so please no flaming, just honest answers.

As many of you know from our previous posts, we don't do what we refer to as "Double Standard" sex. Our definition of this is doing oral unprotected but insisting on condoms for intercourse.

In the past four years, we have had an ad on a few sites and have went to a few clubs, all in the hopes of meeting other couples. In all this time, we finally met one (1) couple (about 6 months ago) who was from out of town and we had a great time. Unfortunately, they are from out of town and it was a one time thing for us.

Why is it that so many couples have no problem with taking the risk of catching something by doing oral unprotected but insist on covering up for the rest? Come on, here I am with a man I just met, putting his uncovered dick in my mouth, taking the risk of catching something, in my mouth, and you want to use a condom to put it in my coochie? Or how about my hubby with your wife. You want him to lick your bare coochie, taking the risk of catching something but then tell him to cover up to put it in? WTF!!!!

The reason for all this is that we give up. We're tired of all this work, answering emails from people who EMAIL US and don't take the time to actually read our profile. (Yes, we did state that we don't like condoms are are looking for other who feel the same).

If you're that afraid of catching something, they do have lifesize dolls for both men and women. (We saw them on the "Real Sex" series). This way, you know that you are doing 100% safe sex!

I'm sorry but, to me, putting a mans dick in my mouth is a lot more personal than having it in my coochie.

I think everyone here will agree that YES, you can catch a STD in your mouth and throat from oral sex. The risk may or may not be less, however the risk is still there.

So ladies, why the paranoia about no condom for intercourse after you have had a strange mans dick in your mouth unprotected? (Other than the pregnancy issue). I say ladies here specifically as I think most men would jump at the opportunity to do it uncovered. LOL

Ok, that's my vent. Once again, please no flaming. I look forward to reading your honest answers.

Mrs. LCJTSD
(Hubby feels the same way too)

Good point...I have been playing with a couple "friends" for 4 plus years or so and we started out with condoms but stopped after about a year. "I have been tested and all is good-clean-negative." I/we pull out and like to cum on hear face so no preganacy worries.

I have recently meet another couple and we always use condoms for sex and yes she sucks my dick and others w/o condoms. I have only played with this couple twice and have no problem with using condoms.

It will be interesting to hear the other replys.

Magnum

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by magnum

Good point...I have been playing with a couple "friends" for 4 plus years or so and we started out with condoms but stopped after about a year. "I have been tested and all is good-clean-negative." I/we pull out and like to cum on hear face so no preganacy worries.

NO worries.. this is how both of my children were conceived before I was even 18 yrs old... I thought I had no worries because I pulled out and deposited elsewhere.. Sure it took us four years to end up with two kids.. and I know I should have learned after the first one.. but nope sure didn't

-Van

[lcjtsd]

Magnum,

You didn't state whether the women were on any type of birth control or not. I think it would help clarify.