Rule disregarded, needing advice/guidance.

[thiscouple]

Mr. This and I have met a couple a few times. We have another 'date' with them for the 29th. We have not played with them yet (nor any couple). We are very new to this all. I am unsure if I am actually okay with full swapping just yet. We're going in with the game plan on the 29th to do some play. We've all agreed before hand it may just be with our own spouses in the same room, may be a soft swap, or may be a full swap. We plan to start out with our own spouses then switch for some soft and then it is up to me how far that goes. I hate, hate, hate that it is on me to decide, but I'm the one who is 'slow' to start so I guess it's decided my comfort level is the biggest thing/obstacle at this point.

Anyway, my issue comes from the last date we had. We went to a local completely vanilla hang out and had some drinks, a bite to eat, and shot some pool. My issue is that during this the other wife is patting and grabbing Mr. This' butt. Yes, I do understand she is attracted to him, VERY attracted to him from her chats/texts with him and cannot wait to have her way with him. Okay, I'm 99% sure I am okay with all that. BUT, I am not okay with her being outwardly aggressive in public toward my husband. I saw several people in the establishment notice the behavior and obviously were wondering what was going on. At the time I didn't do anything because I didn't really know who's place it was to say something (his or mine). We'd agreed before hand no open/outward affection or flirting in a vanilla place as we both know a lot of people in this city and it's not that big a city. I'm annoyed he didn't say anything, but he figured if it bothered me I'd say something to him or her. Next time I definitely will, in fact, I'm thinking I should drop her a note before hand and restate our rule of no cross-PDA in public.

I know it might seem a really petty issue to someone who has been in the LS a while, but to me it's important. I feel like if she cannot respect this rule, what other boundaries is she going to try and cross. Mr. This has a rule of noone but me kissing his neck... I really wonder if she'll abide by that or not, especially after she just tossed the no PDA rule right in front of me. What will she do when she knows/thinks I'm not looking. What I am wondering is: Is it his place or mine to say something to her? Or is it appropriate for either of us? I feel like I or he should have a chat with her before the 29th and restate our rules and stress them. I'm actually on the verge of calling off play if something isn't said/done because I don't feel like she respects my position as the other wife. Mr. This thinks that feeling is an overreaction since she just patted and grabbed his butt a couple times.

EDIT: I wanted to add, Mr. This doesn't really see what happened as a PDA. I do and don't care how little a PDA it may have been, in my mind a rule is a rule.

We've talked this out a lot and neither of us seem to budge from our own opinion. I'm usually the one to drop things and let it go, this time I'm not. So, I'm looking for neutral opinions/comments/anything?

[CXXC]

You have established rules. What you perceive as a transgression must be held as such! Your husband has two options as I see it.
1. Abide by your feelings and follow the rules as you feel comfortable.
2. Step away from the entire activity and any thought of future activities as you will shut it down entirely.

You see, rules are important. they are set up to minimize issues and potential drama between couples and playmates. You, being the compass and setting the pace of your involvement as a couple, have particular things that you deem inappropriate. If you argue about it now, stand in opposition now, what do you think will happen when you are in another social setting?

Your issue with the other wife is a matter of trust. You do not trust her to follow the rules. The fact that your husband sees her activities as harmless and not a transgression by his standards is immaterial. YOU DO! She does not follow your pre-set rules. And like you pondered earlier, what will she do while you are otherwise occupied and not able to really pay attention to them?

If this were me, I would cancel the date. Sure that is pretty extreme. It will be even more extreme if she does it again and you harbor anger when the group moves to a private place for more intimate activities.

Your anger will manifest itself in several possible ways throughout the evening, up to and including blowing up completely at your husband, her or both! This would be classified as Drama! No one wants it. It can be avoided.

Unless your husband agrees 100% with you that there will be no cross PDA's, (and that include ones you feel are PDA’s and he does not) I would not make this date! You will not trust him to make the right decision nor will you trust her to behave according to your agreements!

One last thing I would like to add, You should NOT HATE HATE HATE the fact that you are the one setting the pace here! If you are not comfortable, you should not be forced to do ANYTHING!!!!! If you are comfortable with X but not Y, make sure everyone understands this. Do not be forced or pushed into Y. You will regret it almost immediately, if not shortly thereafter!

Good luck! Communicate openly and honestly and constantly!

[slevin]

Perhaps she feels the same as your husband; that what she did wasn't PDA and therefore she isn't even aware she's crossed a boundary. Perhaps she is just an outgoing and naturally flirtatious woman who is apt to do those sort of things to people she isn't swinging with; vanilla folks. This might not even occur to her, and if you aren't speaking up in the moment to let people know that it bothers you then how can you expect them to know? You can communicate your rules and expect people to abide by them, that is a good thing. The problem is that even with rules that you think are black and white there is often room for different interpretations of what that means. To me a rule like no PDA is going to refer to things like kissing, holding hands.

I think more than anything here you are frustrated that they didn't follow the rules as you understood them, but you know that you should have spoken up in the moment to let your feelings be known. That is what is most frustrating to you I imagine. When it comes to swinging you should never sit there and hope/expect for someone else to recognize that you're not comfortable. That just isn't going to happen, even to the most in tune and connected couples. It's very passive aggressive to expect that, not say anything then be upset later on because someone didn't read you properly. That isn't very healthy for a relationship or for swinging. You need to learn to be comfortable speaking up in the moment and letting your feelings be known. This is scary the first couple of times, but it gets a lot easier.

So, after saying all of that here are my thoughts:

- You are completely justified in feeling upset that your rules weren't followed
- Your husband is completely justified in not thinking that her actions were PDA and therefore not realizing that your rule was being broken
- She is completely justified in not realizing that her actions might be infringing on your rules

You are left with a decision of where to go from here. Do you put that aside and meet them with a new resolve to speak up if anything happens that you're not comfortable with? Or do you call it off because of distrust of her intentions and move on to other couples? Personally I would meet with them again and make it clear (in a friendly and non-threatening way) what our rules are for the night. If she does anything that crosses that I would let them know right away that I felt that was crossing our rules; her reaction to that would determine whether we were done with them or not. I'd assess whether it was an innocent misunderstanding or trying to push the boundaries.

Also, I would take full swap completely off the table for the first play time. I would make the decision, with your husband, that this will be a softswap only night. Even if you decide during the playtime that you're ok with fullswap, I'd stick with the softswap and wait until the next time to go forward with fullswap, if you are ready for it. That will take the stress out of the meeting and makes it very clear what is ok and what isn't ok. Leaving the fullswap out there as something that maybe you will do is just setting up a situation where someone might jump into fullswap thinking everyone was ok with it. Make a clear distinction of what is going to happen that night and stick to that. Of course if you get into that and aren't even comfortable with the softswap you should speak up; you should always be comfortable with putting the breaks on. Anyone who isn't ok with that is someone you should never see again.

Good luck

[slevin]

Originally Posted by CXXC

Unless your husband agrees 100% with you that there will be no cross PDA's, (and that include ones you feel are PDA’s and he does not) I would not make this date! You will not trust him to make the right decision nor will you trust her to behave according to your agreements

Totally agree with this; he can feel that it wasn't PDA and still respect that you do feel it was. If he isn't willing to accept that you feel it is PDA and act accordingly then there is an issue. That doesn't mean he has to agree that it was PDA, he just has to be 100% willing to understand and respect that you do feel that way and act accordingly. Just as you should do the same thing for him when you encounter a difference of opinion in the other direction. It is all about respecting each other, understanding each other and working as a team.

[VegasLee]

I feel you two need to slow on down and do a great deal more talking before going on dates of any kind with others at this point.

From your posting I do not believe either of you are really ready for this Lifestyle at this time.

More time, communication and maybe in time you can venture out but I see to many if's and butts at this point.

Spend your time with each other and enjoy life. Once you two are more on the same page venture out if you feel the desire.

This lifestyle is not for everyone, not for most for that matter.

[DigginIt]

Wow, I think Vegas Lee, Slevin and CXXC have presented points for both sides pretty well. This is just some observational comments and some food for thought:

There is no right or wrong when it comes to your emotions. It doesn't matter if your husband is right or you are right. This isn't a contest of wills to debate. The minute either of you feel uncomfortable, for any reason, justified or not, then playtime is over, period.

There is no making each other feel guilty or pressuring the other. You stop until you resolve the issue. Emotions are not right or wrong, they are feelings and feelings are rarely rational. If the two of you can't agree and be respectful of each other in that regard then you are headed for a ...



Swinging is great once you both are ready for it. If you are going to move forward, I'd tone it back to say maybe voyeurism but I wouldn't go beyond that yet.

You may lose this couple but there are plenty more. Take your time, get both of your heads wrapped around this a little better and then try again. The lifestyle isn't going anywhere.

Best of luck to you both.

[Alura]

I agree with Vegas Lee. Y'all seem to be pushing beyond the comfort level. A full swap at this point would likely be a disaster.

I'd also rethink the rules somewhat. For instance, it'll be hard to control neck kissing that neither of you is doing. A rule about the activities of you or Mr. This is certainly workable, but a rule about what the other couple might do, even if you warn them, will surely put y'all on the road to unpleasant drama.

I'd suggest y'all keep the date on the 29th, but spend the first part in a quiet place (perhaps over dinner?) where all four can talk. Level with the other couple about your misgivings. Keep in mind that communication with play partners is just as important as that between yourselves.

Alura

[lovinher]

She may have broke your rule but now your radar is up and running and you will be looking for an infraction. Another meeting with this couple shoudn't even be considered right now. It's a recipe for drama.

Originally Posted by VegasLee

I feel you two need to slow on down and do a great deal more talking before going on dates of any kind with others at this point.

From your posting I do not believe either of you are really ready for this Lifestyle at this time.

More time, communication and maybe in time you can venture out but I see to many if's and butts at this point.

Spend your time with each other and enjoy life. Once you two are more on the same page venture out if you feel the desire.

This lifestyle is not for everyone, not for most for that matter.

I agree. I'm not blaming you (or her) because I wasn't there. We have only heard your side of it. But the fact is you and your husband can't seem to agree on what should be easily resolved if you were ready for this. You two seem to be on completely different pages and that alone is enough to step back for now.

[thiscouple]

Thank you all. I do agree with what you all are saying.

I honestly am not sure if I am ready for this or not. Some moments I am and others I am completely not. My emotions are on a rollercoaster and I feel like I'm jerking my husband around, though I am not meaning to be doing so at all. I want this for us. I want us both to have fun... I'm just not 110% sure it will be. I have insecurities that cannot be resolved overnight. We definitely have a lot of talking to do before we go any further.

[sexcupid]

Everyone else has given some pretty good advice here.

But I'm feeling a bit like the devil's advocate right now.

According to your other threads, you have participated in MFMs...He's already had time to process through his feelings of doubt and uncertainty when the topic of MFM play was introduced.

Perhaps some of your uncertainty comes from the fact he turned the tables by saying that his fantasy is a full swap. Does it make you wonder now if he just did the MFMs so he could eventually get 'his turn' with someone else?

So now you have to play catch up in processing through your feelings...added to that now you are feeling like the other 3 folks are ready to rip their clothes off and get hot and sweaty but your're holding up the party.

Sure, rules are rules. Apparently there was some discrepancy in what constitutes a PDA. Perhaps they thought if there was no handholding, kissing, hugging then they were in the clear and no rule was breached.

Obviously you weren't having as good of a time shooting pool as the other 3 because you were too busy paying attention to the people around you and worrying what they were thinking of 4 adults shooting pool and getting a little rowdy as people are want to do after having a few drinks, shooting pool, and having a fun night out without children or other chaperones. Do you have a connection with the hubby of the other couple?

For the record, before I/we were anywhere near being involved in the LS, I had a horrible reputation of pinching bootys, poking those bootys with my pool cue, among other distraction methods while shooting pool to improve my chances of winning the game.

And even if you go through with the get together this weekend...you aren't going to be happy even if its just same room sex...of course your hubby is going to be watching...there is a live porno going on on the next bed.

Call a halt to all playtime (MFMs included) until the two of you can sort things out and verify that you are on the same page.

[fun4Ds]

Originally Posted by thiscouple

Anyway, my issue comes from the last date we had. We went to a local completely vanilla hang out and had some drinks, a bite to eat, and shot some pool. My issue is that during this the other wife is patting and grabbing Mr. This' butt.

This is a very big mistake right here, and I agree with others before me as well.

I understand your new to the lifestyle and have limitations. But, in the nature of swinging your missing something... It's fair to warn you that as the slowest paced person, you need to carry a shield, its your responsibility. I think that shield, would be understanding those around you a little more.... We're talking swinging here, right ?

NEVER, go to a local vanilla hang out with swingers. They're not crazy and uncontrollable but the dynamics are : With four people in the mix, someone is going to have a very big boost of raging testosterone or hormones. Trust me.... If not, nothing will happen. It will be boring and everyone goes home..... Usually drunk, but I digress...

For us we found its cool with experienced swingers (for the most part) But even then, we would never invite someone out of our community, to our local vanilla bar. Out of towner's especially over look your discretion. We have found even swingers who move TO our community, to throw discretion to the wind... But boy, go to their home town or around their family, don't think the tides don't turn.

We're Outed so to speak, at least to anyone it might matter. Its only through our own misfortunes we truly understand, others discretion. No, we wouldn't do any touchy feely in this situation, but I think its unfair to the other couple in this instance, to have even brought this idea, close to home. Shield yourself....

Yes, I do understand she is attracted to him, VERY attracted to him from her chats/texts with him and cannot wait to have her way with him. Okay, I'm 99% sure I am okay with all that. BUT, I am not okay with her being outwardly aggressive in public toward my husband.

Find a neutral place, you are obviously not OK with Known public appearances. How will you know if you don't try this away from your area ?

I saw several people in the establishment notice the behavior and obviously were wondering what was going on.

I had a woman/playmate half of a couple, advance/corner me in a local 7-11 mart. I was with my son in front of an old woman I have known for years... Talk about Looks ? She poured it on.. Worse, they lived two blocks away...

We stopped the playing and she knows why. I can't change people, but I could change who I play with and where. Besides, there are more discreet people to fuck in our neighborhood.

At the time I didn't do anything because I didn't really know who's place it was to say something (his or mine).

Yours ! You have a responsibility as well as a right, to say

"I'm not cool with this, I didn't know till now, I'm not OK with this".

If Mrthiscouple, doesent get it or either of the other couple... Get your purse, its time to go.... Either that (If your trapped and cant leave), put your fingers over your ears and go "la,la,la I'm not listening"... Thats a killer end right there, games over, shields are up, they will quit, or leave eventually... Might be a good time though to tell Mr.This couple about this signal in advance. Personally, it took a little training on Mrsfun part. Its the nicest way to say shut the fuck up and listen, I'v ever heard....

However, Mr this couple had a right to enjoy the flirting at this point. I'm sure it boosted his testosterone levels (its quite a buzz to a man). We have to watch out for each other though at times, It's our responsibility as a team. You should have called him to the side (it can always be done) and told him then.

I'm actually on the verge of calling off play if something isn't said/done because I don't feel like she respects my position as the other wife.

It seems she disrespected your turf ? Again, location , location, location... Didn't you check out the Mr ? Did you want to touch or be touched yourself, did you want to flirt or be flirted with ? What was the point of this at all, if not ?

Mr. This thinks that feeling is an overreaction since she just patted and grabbed his butt a couple times.

Well, I hope it put a little tiger in his tank, thats what it does for me. I love it... But if he's new as you, he has to learn your signals,comfort....

I hope you give it another shot, nothing gained if you don't, nothing lost if you won't. Carry an emotional shield for now, until you can be more open. You are going to need it at times. Its part of the nature of swinging...


Fun4ds

[Additude]

For some reason, after reading your posting, I get the impression your about ready to go ballistic to make a point.

Although I agree with your rule and it is a sensible rule seeing as there is a definite possibility that you may have local acquaintances viewing that type of activity and we all know that no ones needs to be part of the vicious rumor mill.

Most especially in a small town. Which is one big reason not to take your fun locally. That's a mistake in itself.

I think re-mentioning the rule with an explanation as to the reason why would be enough for any rational adult. I don't think there is any reason to go as far as to have to "Lay Down The Law" so to speak.

I think in this situation a casual reminder and reason for your concern should be all it takes to resolve the issue.

If after that, if it doesn't seem to "sink in", then I think you both need to move on and find another couple.

[TNT]

Originally Posted by thiscouple

We'd agreed before hand no open/outward affection or flirting in a vanilla place as we both know a lot of people in this city and it's not that big a city. I'm annoyed he didn't say anything, but he figured if it bothered me I'd say something to him or her.

I'm assuming that when you said, "We'd agreed", that this was an agreement that was clearly stated and understood between both couples, and not just an agreement between you and your husband.

If my assumption is correct (both couples knew of no PDAs in public), then it would have been appropriate for either you or your husband to have said something to the other wife.

That being said, and having gone back and read you other post, I agree with Vegas Lee (and the others) you are NOT ready for this.

Continuing to pursue something that you obviously are not comfortable with, will only cause resentment to set in. It will not do your relationship any good to try something you don't really want to do, just because it's something your husband wants to do.


Teresa

[realcplub2]

Originally Posted by thiscouple

Thank you all. I do agree with what you all are saying.

I honestly am not sure if I am ready for this or not. Some moments I am and others I am completely not. My emotions are on a rollercoaster and I feel like I'm jerking my husband around, though I am not meaning to be doing so at all. I want this for us. I want us both to have fun... I'm just not 110% sure it will be. I have insecurities that cannot be resolved overnight. We definitely have a lot of talking to do before we go any further.

Hello, and Welcome..

You answered your own question sort of.. (note the bold and underlined text in your quote)

When you are new to this, as a couple, you proceed at the pace of the slowest person.. If you aren’t ready to take this further, then you need to explain it to your husband and HE needs to respect your position. Your emotions are COMPLETELY NORMAL.. we are taught all our lives that we are supposed to be mongamous, and that those that can enjoy sex beyond the marriage bed are wrong dirty, perverted.. and its just not the case.. but getting passed those taught emotions is often a bitch.. like jumping off a high board into water.. scary but once its done a few times, piece of cake...

Rules and infractions of rules are in the eyes of the beholder.. If you interpret a infraction then, THERE WAS, regardless of how much its minmized by either your husband or her.
Suppose the shoe was on the other foot, and he was the one that was uncomfortable, with attention that is being showered on you by another man.. Or worse it went to the next level and he observed a infraction such as the other gent, going where no one BUTT him has gone before... See my point? You may be caught up in the moment, it might feel completely different, but if thats "reserved" space.. he wouldnt appreciate the trespass, and thats what we are really talking about.. PDA, or trespass beyond a point where you are comfortable.

So, here are the possible actions that you CAN take:

Talk over everything again with your husband, explain your position again.. Without interjections, and clarify, that this is all new to you both, if there is a precieved infraction, then, thats all that was required to cause issues that need to be addressed.. And until you are both on the same spot on the page.. you arent ready to go further.. and until its clarified, again, no further.

Or you can tell, him and the other couple, that you really just arent ready to proceed further since thats what it seems like everyone else is ready to do. Take all the ideas of playing right off the table for the time being, and explain that to these other people. If they cant understand that.. it might be for the best to move on and find new playmates.

Either way, I hate to say it, but, your husband is likely to fight it argue in either case.. and that might be the biggest indicator of how ready you are for all of this as a couple.

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by thiscouple

I hate, hate, hate that it is on me to decide, but I'm the one who is 'slow' to start so I guess it's decided my comfort level is the biggest thing/obstacle at this point.

I'm assuming that your comfort level involves your husband having sex with another woman, since you've told us in another thread that you've had MFMs and don't mind that.

This thread and the others show that you still have an issue with sharing your husband with another woman. In fact, in one of your other threads you said that the two of you had decided to take a break from swinging to figure this one out. That sounds like it might be a good idea.