She broke rules. I felt betrayed. Am I Wrong?

[NorthLaCpl]

My girl friend and I have been together for 2 years now and have enjoyed a wonderful relationship. We love each other and communicate very well. Recently during some pillow talk I mentioned that I sometimes found it hot to think of watching her have sex. She was shocked and surprised that I would be okay with it, but to make a long story short, she decided she would like to see me with another woman and this was something worth exploring together, so we decided to go to an on premises club and see what happened.

Before going in we made the following rules:
1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)
2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.
3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.
4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.
5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

Now, I do realize that probably looks like some rookie rules, and that's because they are. We were determined to make sure nothing hurt our relationship and nothing came between us.

So, it's a Saturday night and we are at the club and have been fooling around with each other. My girlfriend was very open and didn't care who saw what. I realized then she was more comfortable than I was right off the bat. Then we ended up hooking up with another couple for a few minutes, this consisted of my girlfriend going down on the other girl while we men watched.

Well then later we met a very attractive couple in the hall. We talked a bit and it was very clear that my GF was attracted to them both. So we went to a room and without any discussion at all, both women set on the bed and started fondling. Meanwhile the other husband told me, we are old hands at this and just a word of advice. This is all about the women getting pleasure. So we just stand back until called in, but I don't touch your woman and you don't touch mine unless we both agree. I said okay, I like that rule.

So soon after my GF is going down on his wife, and she says come on over here and get inside her. So I tried, but for what ever reason, I was soft as a noodle. I just couldn't get hard no matter what I did, and mean while the other guy has moved up and is caressing his wife while my GF went down on her with gusto. Then my GF flipped over on her back and tried to guide me into her while her and the other woman kissed, and as this happened, her husband moved up and started screwing his wife while both women kissed and caressed each other. And all the while, I couldn't get hard. So this to me is what's critical. I asked my GF, "Do you want him?" And she said, "No, I want only you." So I said look, let me go pee and maybe that will help me get hard. I'll be right back. So I did, and was only gone a few minutes, but when I returned, both women are on their knees in front of him and my GF is giving him head. Just as soon as I walked up, he pulls his pants up and they both leave the room. My GF stands up and said, I tried it and I see now that I want only you.

I was very hurt, I felt I'd been played and betrayed. She broke the condom rule and just about every rule we'd made. We left the club soon after and when I could finally bring myself to discuss it with he, her response was that she wasn't trying to deceive me or do something without me knowing. She just felt that was what we'd gone in the room for and all was okay. And she claims to not remember me asking her if she wanted him and her reply, although she does remember everything said between us and this couple leading up to the event. When asked why she remembers some but not the most critical question, she says it's because she'd drank way to much and everything was a blur. That she would not have done it had she not drank so much, and I can't accept that as an excuse.

Am I being a prude or totally naive here? I'm really trying to work though this.

[LFM2]

First of all, to the Swingers Board. You've come to a great place!

Let me start with your question:

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Am I being a prude or totally naive here?

You own your own feelings. What you feel is what you feel. But lets try to put your feelings in perspective.

Before you do anything else regarding clubs and swinging, don't do anything at all except communicate with each other. You two need to reconnect before either of you are ready for more play. There are definite issues between you two that need to be discussed.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Before going in we made the following rules:
1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)
2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.
3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.
4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.
5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

Good rules. Every couple should have some boundaries or rules that they feel are pertinent to their situation and relationship. Some couples have no rules because of their comfort zones. It's all about what you're comfortable with and what you're both willing to do or not do.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

So I did, and was only gone a few minutes, but when I returned, both women are on their knees in front of him and my GF is giving him head. Just as soon as I walked up, he pulls his pants up and they both leave the room. My GF stands up and said, I tried it and I see now that I want only you. When asked why she remembers some but not the most critical question, she says it's because she'd drank way to much and everything was a blur. That she would not have done it had she not drank so much, and I can't accept that as an excuse.

Now, personally, we like alcohol. But, we don't drink enough to get silly. We don't need alcohol to cloud our senses or judgment. We've found that those who do drink a bit too much usually bring drama to the party and we don't want that. We love to have sex with others and we do it for fun. If the other couple is going to have drama, we usually steer clear. There are a plethora of threads here about the dangers of drinking and playing. It's been proven several times that swinging and over imbibing just don't mix.

We agree, alcohol is not an excuse to break boundaries. Giving head without a condom broke that boundary. You two need to decide if you can get past this indiscretion. (this is where all that great communication you said you have comes in) Did the heat of the moment just catch up to her and she couldn't help herself? Is she apologetic? Remorseful? Some couples really mess up at something. Not really meaning to, but it does happens.

I'm also curious if you're not a bit angry that the other couple left early not giving you a chance to get in on the action. I mean you leave for a couple of minutes to use the restroom, you come back and they're dressed and ready to go. Just wondering if this also isn't escalating the situation? I apologize in advance if this isn't the case at all.

[mmm_yaya]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Before going in we made the following rules:
1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

No dancing with others, but screwing others is OK? Now that's a rule I've never come across.

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by mmm_yaya

No dancing with others, but screwing others is OK? Now that's a rule I've never come across.

Well oddly enough, that was her rule. And maybe that is what led me to the misconception that we would proceed slowly rather than 0 to wide open in one swoop. But I see your point, it does seem silly, thus my comment about our being rookies.

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by LFM2

Now, personally, we like alcohol. But, we don't drink enough to get silly. We don't need alcohol to cloud our senses or judgment. We've found that those who do drink a bit too much usually bring drama to the party and we don't want that. We love to have sex with others and we do it for fun. If the other couple is going to have drama, we usually steer clear. There are a plethora of threads here about the dangers of drinking and playing. It's been proven several times that swinging and over imbibing just don't mix.

We agree, alcohol is not an excuse to break boundaries. Giving head without a condom broke that boundary. You two need to decide if you can get past this indiscretion. (this is where all that great communication you said you have comes in) Did the heat of the moment just catch up to her and she couldn't help herself? Is she apologetic? Remorseful? Some couples really mess up at something. Not really meaning to, but it does happens.

I'm also curious if you're not a bit angry that the other couple left early not giving you a chance to get in on the action. I mean you leave for a couple of minutes to use the restroom, you come back and they're dressed and ready to go. Just wondering if this also isn't escalating the situation? I apologize in advance if this isn't the case at all.

Thanks for the welcome and the great reply to my questions. Clearly you get that this has caused us a huge amount of pain so I am very thankful for your help and the sharing of your experiences. And as to the alcohol, we can chalk that up as a lesson learned. No doubt that must be used in great moderation with this type of environment.

One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could.

My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could?

And no, it doesn't dismiss the fact that she went forward while I was out of the room, that was one rule broke, and she did it without a condom, another rule broke. So I'm left having to accept her excuse that it wouldn't have happened had she not drank to excess.

As to what part the other couples leaving played in my anger, you're right, it plays a big part but not in the way you think. In my mind, when I returned and saw her going down on him, first of all I knew he'd broken the agreement we had just made and I felt I'd been played. And their abrupt departure just added to my feeling they knew they were guilty so they fled the scene.

Then seeing her breaking the rules of using a condom, no action unless we are both in the room, and the big one, no action at all without permission was the deal breaker. I felt played by all involved. But now with her explanation that she thought she had permission does change things in my mind. Before I felt she behaved as a slut and used the excuse of being drunk as a get out of jail free card to justify her actions . But as per her explanation, she thought she had permission but went further and faster than she would have had she not been drinking.

So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation.

On edit:
But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.

[sweet_tna]

I'm glad to hear you've already done some talking, that your GF seems genuinely sorry for breaking the rules (even if due to a misunderstanding) and that you seem to believe her.

As to whose viewpoint is right? Well, that doesn't really matter since what's done is done and the more important issue is healing the hurts between you (whether you decide to continue in the lifestyle or not).

You two need to keep talking about your evening, and how you feel about what happened both good and bad. Do either of ya'll still want to persue the lifestyle? If so, what activities/situations do you want to try?

Best of luck to ya'll, whatever you decide.

=)

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could.
My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could?

Clearly, you two weren't on the same page with your own rules. You each interpreted the rules to meet your own needs. You can't fault her if the communication was not what it should have been and she went a little faster than you thought she should and she can't fault you for being angry/hurt.

Sounds like she had the pedal to the metal and you were just kinda putt-puttin, keeping it slow. Do I have that right? Most of us here believe that you should only go as fast as the slowest person. If you're just feeling out the water and not quite ready to jump in, your GF should be going only as fast as you are. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation.

Do you want to work through this? You both jumped into this without really communicating the rules thoroughly. Communication is so much more than just talking. It's reading your partners body language, reading eyes, and not just listening to what the other person has to say but really LISTENING to what your partner has to say. It's really getting to know your other partner. Telling each other everything. Communication is being so honest it hurts.

It's totally up to you if this is your first and last time swinging. Some couples are not cut out to swing, and that's OK. If you can work through this one-time incident, can communicate more effectively the rules and be totally honest with each other, be honest in your observations and feelings and most importantly, maintain respect for each other and your partners -- swinging can be done successfully.

As far as the drinking... I can't help but think you might have also known she'd had too much. You were with her and know her the best. Did you think she'd had too much? Most people lose all inhibitions with drinking. Some call it liquid courage. If you really need to drink to excess to have fun, you're not ready to play with others.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

On edit:
But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.

You bet it can. But the greatest problem I see with you two is your communication skills. You both played a major role in this failure of communication. If I'm reading this right, it does sound like you both had different takes on what your rules were, in addition, the drinking made for a bad night. This can be corrected. Rules were broken, but not all is lost. Talk over coffee at the kitchen table. Without accusing, talk about how it made you feel, let her talk about how she feels and go from there. Get it all out in the open and see if this can't be corrected, and move on. I really wish you both luck. Talking is easy. Communication isn't so much.

[JustAskJulie]

One piece of advice that I read recently in a great book on couple's communication is that you have to get over wanting to be right and decide what is more important, being right or being happy.

This isn't about deciding who's right or wrong here, it's about communicating and getting past what happened and working on making sure that before you go out again you have a set of rules that you both completely understand and agree to. Consider it a learning experience. Yes, some things went wrong but it was more due to miscommunication than misleading (at least on her part).

I am more bothered by this other couple's role in this situation than her own actions. I do feel you were played. His comments that everything must be agreed on, etc, yet he didn't make sure YOU were ok with him fucking your wife? he waited until you had left the room to initiate something with her? And (I'm sorry but) all I could think was - damn that dude was quick! You were gone just a few minutes and he'd already finished? Geez. But, then they leave the room as soon as you walk back in. That's not cool.

My advice for you in the future. Set some new rules that you both agree to and that make sense for you. Make sure you both understand what you mean in regards to the rules so that miscommunications like this don't happen again. If you mean once you walk into a room with a couple all is game then you both need to know that, if you mean something else, you both need to know that.

I would say this, if she feels she doesn't want to screw a guy other than you then you would simplify things alot by setting the rule that you will BOTH only have sex with each other. That it will only be soft-swap with other couples (whatever you are ok with within those boundaries). However, setting it up to ONLY be soft-swap AND to say that you won't kiss or dance with another couple, is some pretty tight boundaries. If it's only going to be girl/girl then make that agreement. Whatever the agreements are, make sure you both understand them and agree to them.

While we can't judge what's right for you, I would suggest that you come back here again and talk about what agreements you do come to (and spend some time reading some of the threads in the boundaries archive) mainly to get an idea of whether or not those boundaries/rules are really workable and what the likelihood is of you finding people who will play within those boundaries.

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by LFM2

Clearly, you two weren't on the same page with your own rules. You each interpreted the rules to meet your own needs. You can't fault her if the communication was not what it should have been and she went a little faster than you thought she should and she can't fault you for being angry/hurt.

And I have come to this same understanding as well as my fault in the matter. I've come to understand that while we discussed our fantasies in great detail, we failed to go into that same level of detail in mapping out how we make said fantasies a reality.

Originally Posted by LFM2

Sounds like she had the pedal to the metal and you were just kinda putt-puttin, keeping it slow. Do I have that right? Most of us here believe that you should only go as fast as the slowest person. If you're just feeling out the water and not quite ready to jump in, your GF should be going only as fast as you are. Does that make sense?

Yep, you've got the picture. And to be fair to her, the night before we'd met a couple and during this encounter, my GF and the other woman played while me and the other guy just hung back. And on this instance she dove right in so to speak and of course I had no issues with it. This was her first time with a woman and I wanted her to enjoy. So maybe since we had this encounter behind us, she saw no difference in sex rather it is her and a woman or her and a man, thus her rate of speed and inhibition?

Originally Posted by LFM2

Do you want to work through this? You both jumped into this without really communicating the rules thoroughly. Communication is so much more than just talking. It's reading your partners body language, reading eyes, and not just listening to what the other person has to say but really LISTENING to what your partner has to say. It's really getting to know your other partner. Telling each other everything. Communication is being so honest it hurts.

Since learning her interpretation of the rules, I have decided I want to work though it. And you're point on communication being more than just talking is well taken. On this night, once she "engaged" she wasn't communicating with me at all. Her and this other woman were all over each other, then when I left the room, he was quickly added to the mix, so in all this, she was totally obvious to me. Which was one of my points when we talked later. I felt I had no chance to communicate with her once this started, she was just in the zone so to speak

Originally Posted by LFM2

As far as the drinking... I can't help but think you might have also known she'd had too much. You were with her and know her the best. Did you think she'd had too much? Most people lose all inhibitions with drinking. Some call it liquid courage. If you really need to drink to excess to have fun, you're not ready to play with others.

Actually I didn't get that she'd drank too much. She'd had about 8 Guinness beers over a period of about 3 or 4 hours, there was no staggering, no slurred speech, no indication at all that she was even tipsy. But as it is, to get past this I have to make this decision: I have do decided that yes, she'd drank just enough to lower her inhibitions to the point that she did what she did with me out of the room. But it still pisses me off because in my heart, I think alcohol simply brings out what a person wants to do to begin with. Or put another way, what she wanted to do was more important than what I thought about it.

Originally Posted by LFM2

You bet it can. But the greatest problem I see with you two is your communication skills. You both played a major role in this failure of communication. If I'm reading this right, it does sound like you both had different takes on what your rules were, in addition, the drinking made for a bad night. This can be corrected. Rules were broken, but not all is lost. Talk over coffee at the kitchen table. Without accusing, talk about how it made you feel, let her talk about how she feels and go from there. Get it all out in the open and see if this can't be corrected, and move on. I really wish you both luck. Talking is easy. Communication isn't so much.

You're right, we both played a major roll in the break down, and when we dove deeper into the subject she brought up a good point. She knew I liked the idea of seeing her enjoy herself with someone else, and in her mind, that was that. And open and shut issue. She felt that gave her the green light to just flat out go for it, to her there was no "pace". And that's fair enough, I had no idea she took it like that. As I told her, at a different pace I'd have most likely agreed to everything. But as things went, I barely recognized who she was.

Thanks again for your well thought out replies, it really has helped me see both sides of this and give me some level of faith that we can work though it.

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

One piece of advice that I read recently in a great book on couple's communication is that you have to get over wanting to be right and decide what is more important, being right or being happy.

That's the one thing I have figured out, and I've chosen to go for happy.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

This isn't about deciding who's right or wrong here, it's about communicating and getting past what happened and working on making sure that before you go out again you have a set of rules that you both completely understand and agree to. Consider it a learning experience. Yes, some things went wrong but it was more due to miscommunication than misleading (at least on her part).

And once I figured that out, it gave me the incentive to fix this. When I thought she'd intentionally misled me, I felt betrayed and dishonored. And on this night of all nights, it would have been inexcusable. But as you say, there is a big difference in misleading and misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I am more bothered by this other couple's role in this situation than her own actions. I do feel you were played. His comments that everything must be agreed on, etc, yet he didn't make sure YOU were ok with him fucking your wife? he waited until you had left the room to initiate something with her? And (I'm sorry but) all I could think was - damn that dude was quick! You were gone just a few minutes and he'd already finished? Geez. But, then they leave the room as soon as you walk back in. That's not cool.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was played. I've searched myself for some other viable explanation for their rapid departure and not one thing comes to mind. But no, he didn't get off. When I walked in, he had his pants at his ankles with my GF going down on him. Soon as he sees me, he pulls up his pants and leaves, it happened so fast I didn't really comprehend what was happening at the time. They were just there and then they were gone. So I can only go by what was said and what I saw. We had an agreement, he broke it soon as I left the room and maybe he didn't expect me back so soon. When I came back he figured he was busted so he simply bolted.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

My advice for you in the future. Set some new rules that you both agree to and that make sense for you. Make sure you both understand what you mean in regards to the rules so that miscommunications like this don't happen again. If you mean once you walk into a room with a couple all is game then you both need to know that, if you mean something else, you both need to know that.

Yeah, you get an amen for that one. It seems so simple now doesn't it. But we totally blew it when it mattered most.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I would say this, if she feels she doesn't want to screw a guy other than you then you would simplify things alot by setting the rule that you will BOTH only have sex with each other. That it will only be soft-swap with other couples (whatever you are ok with within those boundaries). However, setting it up to ONLY be soft-swap AND to say that you won't kiss or dance with another couple, is some pretty tight boundaries. If it's only going to be girl/girl then make that agreement. Whatever the agreements are, make sure you both understand them and agree to them.

We did get a lesson in these too tight boundries. The night before my gf was with another woman, and as I was close by the other woman leaned over and tried to kiss me, but as this was forbidden I didn't let her, and she clearly didn't like it. It was my first indication that as our confidence grows, our boundaries may need to loosen up a bit. And you're right, maybe we do need to refocus what we want from the lifestyle, including rather we want it at all. But I do know this, she loved being with another woman, and no matter what she may say to placate my fears, I have to believe she'll always miss that.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

While we can't judge what's right for you, I would suggest that you come back here again and talk about what agreements you do come to (and spend some time reading some of the threads in the boundaries archive) mainly to get an idea of whether or not those boundaries/rules are really workable and what the likelihood is of you finding people who will play within those boundaries.

I've taken your advise on reading others boundaries. And I do want to thank you for taking the time to give me your in site. It is of great help to me and us.

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by sweet_tna

.........You two need to keep talking about your evening, and how you feel about what happened both good and bad. Do either of ya'll still want to persue the lifestyle? If so, what activities/situations do you want to try?

Best of luck to ya'll, whatever you decide.

=)

I think this is good advice and I have tried to broach the subject. But for now her emotions are a little raw and that's understandable. But thanks for helping me remain open minded. I can't say it's been easy.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was played. I've searched myself for some other viable explanation for their rapid departure and not one thing comes to mind. But no, he didn't get off. When I walked in, he had his pants at his ankles with my GF going down on him. Soon as he sees me, he pulls up his pants and leaves, ...

This part keeps leaving me confused. I guess the first time I read it (because of what you went on to say) I thought she had told you later that they'd had sex and what you'd walked in on was her blowing him (or cleaning him up) afterward.

I take it from reading this the second time that what you actually walked in on was them having sex?

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

This part keeps leaving me confused. I guess the first time I read it (because of what you went on to say) I thought she had told you later that they'd had sex and what you'd walked in on was her blowing him (or cleaning him up) afterward.

I take it from reading this the second time that what you actually walked in on was them having sex?

No, when I walked out it was girl/girl action, then when I walked back in, she was blowing him. So there was no intercourse, but I have to believe had I took longer to get back there would have been. But I don't think it matters, I see no difference between a blow job and intercourse. It's still sex.

[knb2004]

I agree with much of what's been said. Not everything, but most of it. That said:

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other)

Many newbies try the no kissing rule. It usually lasts about 30 seconds in the real world. Kissing and sex go together like peas and carrots and sometimes you find it's happening before you even realize it. We literally had one couple tell us no kissing, and within 60 seconds they had both violated their own rule.

The no dancing thing is odd, and IMO very hard to even accomplish short of skipping the dance floor altogether, especially at an on prem club.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex.
3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops.
4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away.

Good rules, though I don't know about the condoms for oral part. Never done it, never seen it, certainly have never had anyone insist on it. I'm not telling you how to establish your own boundaries, if that is important to you, so be it, but understand it's a statistical anomaly and may (or may not) be off putting for some folks.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding.

Here I completely disagree with you. Never change your rules in the heat of battle, it must be discussed when you are calm, sober, and able to communicate effectively. If this rule also prohibits boy-girl oral sex that should be made explicitly clear. You may consider oral sex as sex but most of the rest of us don't, and it doesn't sound like your girlfriend did either. Had we been a potential playmates of yours, and had you presented that rule as stated here, we would assume it meant intercourse, and ONLY intercourse.

We also have a rule where we are both present when we are playing. That does not, however, require us to stop what we're doing just because one of us needs to go to the bathroom. You didn't ask, but for better or for worse the limp noodle thing is fairly common in swinging. It's mostly a "stage fright" deal, I wouldn't worry about it.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

No, when I walked out it was girl/girl action, then when I walked back in, she was blowing him. So there was no intercourse, but I have to believe had I took longer to get back there would have been. But I don't think it matters, I see no difference between a blow job and intercourse. It's still sex.

That's one area you are going to find that you differ quite a bit from most swingers. In general, soft swap/soft swinging is everything BUT intercourse. A full swap is actual intercourse - it's not a full swap without it. This one little bit of info could have been a large cause for confusion with this other couple. You didn't say how much you discussed with them regarding your own rules and boundaries, all you told us was what he said about making sure everyone was in agreement.

I still say that his actions didn't match his words, but I think there may have been a lot more miscommunication going on here than just between you and your girlfriend and what going into a room with another couple meant.