She broke rules. I felt betrayed. Am I Wrong?

[Dave_kat]

Three things here get Dave's attention, two of which have been addressed already.

Of course the rules - they are your rules and we don't see any negotiating out of those, especially if they were stated as they are typed. This of course leads to the discussion of what defines sex - oral, vaginal, anal, digital, etc. So many types, so many things to discuss on that note alone that most have different ideas before things get started.

Second is the way things played out. We've met and tried to play with couples before where the gentleman couldn't get it up. We question if the couple you were with knew your rules before you went to play, as that is a mistake me made on our first on-premis club play many years ago. Not being up-front about the limits. As for when you came back, we'd seriously reccomend giving that some thought as well. You told her you would be just going to the bathroom - it is probably very unreasonable to think that everything is going to just stop right there and wait for your return. A little position changing will probably happen. Again we go back to what is her definition of sex....

Third, in this lifestyle you have to trust each other, and that is just as important as the communication piece. The "I drank too much" excuse is a first off bat to avoid a fight when something happens, yet the communication is there to get past that and into what really happened. The problem itself is expectations in our opinion. You go into a room to play some, and the guy gives you some awesome advice, that fits in well with what you're looking for. Yet you haven't taken the time to really get to know them, to know their rules, and to build a modicum of trust in them and how they are together.

Kudo's on jumping in - a lot of couples never make to to an on-premis club in their lives, but sometimes we have to take things slow to begin with, and try couple-couple play and the get to know you before you really go for it. Especially when just starting out. That in itself lets you find out the areas that you and your wife need to communicate more on without a big drama scene in the midst of a big party. A little drama when starting out with one couple is way different from the reputation you can earn when you try a big party.

Keep communicating, but you should try to have realistic expectations about rules. Your rules are your own rules, and what you both agree to, but when making them, you should be thinking of things like - how do you get a condom on a guy if you're trying to get him hard to begin with, or how do you flirt with someone if you can't go on the dancefloor with them? Some rules are literally impossible to really and truly maintain.

Good luck, and keep communicating.

[NorthLaCpl]

Thanks Dave Kat for your input. And I must agree with you on how unrealistic most of our rules seem now. But imagine two people discussing this and never even having researched it on a board like this. We were totally winging it here and what we were trying to do is keep somethings just for us and totally separate from the sex. So it was actually her that came up with the no kissing and no dancing rule. And it was also her rule to use a condom during oral sex. That said, I really have no problem believing all of these boundaries would most likely have went away with experience, but we were just babes in the woods here so to speak. And looking at it now, our jumping into an on premises club for our first time may have just put us in way over our heads.

You ask if we'd discussed rules or boundaries with the other couple, well no actually. We flirted a bit in the hallway and then just went to a room. And yes, I kinda thought we'd start out talking but instead, my girl friend reached over and laid a kiss on the other gal, and just like that they were rolling. And that was when he gave me his advice on how we proceed. And sadly, that was the last of any discussions. And while I do feel wronged by them, they didnt' know this was our first time, and by watching my girl friend in action, you'd have never guessed it. So there is that.

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I still say that his actions didn't match his words, but I think there may have been a lot more miscommunication going on here than just between you and your girlfriend and what going into a room with another couple meant.

Julie, as I'd mentioned above, yes, there was miscommunication all the way around, or lack of communication I should say.

But let me say this and maybe put a finer point on why I still feel betrayed by her and by the other couple. It's the issue on the oral sex and on that point I'll just have to say I disagree with everyone here who maintains that oral sex isn't sex. While it may not be in the swinger community, it surely is to the world at large and it was to us as per our prior discussions.

It really broke down like this:
1) We go in the room and she and the other gal start to get it on.
2) My GF lays down beside the other gal and they started kissing. And it was then that he started doing his wife and I "tried" to do mine.
4) I ask my GF is she wants him and she says "No, I want only you." I say okay, that's how it'll be then.
5) I tell her I'm running to the rest room but will be right back.
6) I come back moments later and my GF is on her knees blowing the guy.
7) He sees me, jerks his pants up and leaves the room.
8) She jumps up, hugs me and says, "I tried it and see now that I want only you"
9) When I asked her later if she remembered bullet point # 4 she says no, yet she remembers everything else.

So call me a wuss if you will, but bullet points 4, 7, 8, & 9 just pegged my BS detector to the max. Because of his bolting from the room and her jumping up and not only coming to me but the first words out of her mouth, I think it indicates she knew at the time she was doing something wrong. And I think the semantics are irrelevant. We'd agreed oral was sex and we agreeded we'd both agree before it happened. I asked her if she wanted it, she clearly said no, I leave and she gets straight to it then covers it by saying she was drunk and didn't realize what she was doing.

So after all I've read, I do realize our rules were a bit too tight to be realistic. I realize after reading what Dave & Kat's advice that maybe jumping into a club scene was a bit much for us, or for me I should say. She was fine with it.

But, and this is a biggie, I still have this feeling she knew full well what she was doing and just figured screw the rules. Yes, the other couple led her into it, but I believe, hell I know, I saw her, she went very willingly and the kicker is, I don't believe she was too drunk to know she was doing something that would upset me. I think her jumping up and saying what she said to me is an indication. I think she decided to do what she wanted and blame it on a few beers and in the heat of the moment, I was really not a concern to her until I showed back up faster than expected.

And yeah, I know, as Dave & Kat said, it's not realistic to expect action to stop just because one person leaves the room for a few minutes. And I agree. But on the other hand, I think I deserve a bit of latitude here in that it was our very first time and we had very, very firm agreements that NOTHING new happens without both of us in the room at the time.

So all things considered, I still feel she's lying when she says it was the drink and the missunderstanding. I think it contributed, but I think the main thing was she just did what she wanted to do and really wasn't thinking about the consequences at the time. Or put another way, during that brief period of time, "WE" were not a priority to her, what she wanted was the priority.

[Dave_kat]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

all things considered, I still feel she's lying when she says it was the drink and the missunderstanding. I think it contributed, but I think the main thing was she just did what she wanted to do and really wasn't thinking about the consequences at the time. Or put another way, during that brief period of time, "WE" were not a priority to her, what she wanted was the priority.

Dave here - There is a terrible truth in there. When it boils down to it, isn't pleasurable sex somewhat about yourself? We go through our lives seeking enjoyment, fulfillment, pleasure. We seek lovers who give that to us. We can be great lovers, but being that is one way to bring back our partners for repeated encounters - we make them feel great, they make us feel great. We remain with someone for love, but ultimately it boils down to our own pleasure.

Alcohol will lower our resistance to trying things, you don't have to be drunk to go there either. Dave before a couple of beers is quieter and more reserved. After a couple of beers with friends, the ladies around us all know to tie their bras in knots. And he is by no means drunk - he is simply relaxed and playing around.

While alcohol is not an excuse, getting lost in the moment and not thinking about rules and regulations and discussions is quite possible. Getting overly excited is quite possible. A new situation and letting go might push some things out of people's minds to just enjoy the moment. That's why this lifestyle is so liberating for many, it's really all about enjoyment.

Don't beat her up (figuratively) about getting lost in a moment. Instead, step back and take a look at things and see why they went wrong. If you have unrealistic expectations and things go wrong, don't get upset with the things going wrong - look at the expectations and perhaps make them more realistic.

Judging by your other post with the other couple in the same boat, you seem to be understanding it. You have a decision to make regarding your marriage - but I offer you this little nugget for thought - can we really blame ourselves or our signifigant other if we set the bar too high, by holding onto uneducated and unrealistic standards?

[good times]

I can't really ad to what the others have said except for the following.

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Because of his bolting from the room and her jumping up and not only coming to me but the first words out of her mouth, I think it indicates she knew at the time she was doing something wrong

Having been the other couple in a situation like this with newbies that didn't adequately explain their limitations before we got to the play room, I can explain what happened here.

When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

I asked my GF, "Do you want him?"

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by good times

I can't really ad to what the others have said except for the following.


Having been the other couple in a situation like this with newbies that didn't adequately explain their limitations before we got to the play room, I can explain what happened here.

When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

Nothing to add to this either, but I found this reply incredibly wise. There is a lot of subtleties to life and this reply pegged exactly what happened based on those subtle cues I think.

I lied, I do have something to add lol. In addition to this information; if it was really written all over your face and body language I think it explains her reaction to you as well. To jump up, hug you and reassure you that she only wants you could have been her way of trying to assuage your reaction. Do I think she meant it? No, probably not, I am sure she was enjoying what was going on. But I bet she meant the sentiment that was behind it. Based on your description of how she has reacted at home since this, I think she was probably trying to make sure you were ok. I disagree with how she handled it, but that is because I love complete honesty. I'd rather my wife tell me he was the greatest fuck she ever had and she'd fuck him anytime she saw him than for her to lie to save my feelings.

In any case, something else to think about. I can toss it out there, but you know your wife better than anyone else

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by good times

.......When you returned to the room and saw what was happening, my guess is, your feelings about it were plainly visible by the expression on your face. When that happens to us we immediately get dressed and exit the situation as fast as possible in an attempt to avoid the drama that is obviously coming. So, while your girl apparently went further than you had agreed, based on what you have said here, the other couple is not to blame in the least, as you didn't tell them what your rules were, so they had no way of knowing that they were breaking them. Furthermore, you said,

If I were the other couple and heard you ask that I would have assumed we were good to go all the way if your girl friend agreed.

I would also argue that after you asked that question, your girl friend may have been under the same impression. In other words, she may very well have thought after you asked that question that you would approve of her doing what she did.

Yeah, I do have to admit that your scenario makes a lot of sense. Added to the fact that I'm 6' 2" / 235 lbs, so I'm a fairly big boy who's never been able to master a poker face. (Bad as I hate that fact) If I'm thinkin' it, you can read it. So that said, I was absolutely not going to cause any drama in the club, nor was I planning on going medieval on him. But I do think the real truth is he probably saw my face and then remembered our previous conversation and decided screw this, and left the scene.

Originally Posted by slevin

I lied, I do have something to add lol. In addition to this information; if it was really written all over your face and body language I think it explains her reaction to you as well. To jump up, hug you and reassure you that she only wants you could have been her way of trying to assuage your reaction. Do I think she meant it? No, probably not, I am sure she was enjoying what was going on. But I bet she meant the sentiment that was behind it. Based on your description of how she has reacted at home since this, I think she was probably trying to make sure you were ok. I disagree with how she handled it, but that is because I love complete honesty. I'd rather my wife tell me he was the greatest fuck she ever had and she'd fuck him anytime she saw him than for her to lie to save my feelings.

It's funny you should say this Slevin, this is pretty much what I told her last night.

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

Dave here - Alcohol will lower our resistance to trying things, you don't have to be drunk to go there either. Dave before a couple of beers is quieter and more reserved. After a couple of beers with friends, the ladies around us all know to tie their bras in knots. And he is by no means drunk - he is simply relaxed and playing around.

While alcohol is not an excuse, getting lost in the moment and not thinking about rules and regulations and discussions is quite possible. Getting overly excited is quite possible. A new situation and letting go might push some things out of people's minds to just enjoy the moment. That's why this lifestyle is so liberating for many, it's really all about enjoyment.

Don't beat her up (figuratively) about getting lost in a moment. Instead, step back and take a look at things and see why they went wrong. If you have unrealistic expectations and things go wrong, don't get upset with the things going wrong - look at the expectations and perhaps make them more realistic.

Judging by your other post with the other couple in the same boat, you seem to be understanding it. You have a decision to make regarding your marriage - but I offer you this little nugget for thought - can we really blame ourselves or our signifigant other if we set the bar too high, by holding onto uneducated and unrealistic standards?

You know guys, obviously I've turned this thing inside out and not only in my head, but in my heart as well. And the one thing I've learned is I can't always get my head and my heart to agree. And Dave, my head has agreed with most everything you and Kat have told me, even though my heart has often lagged behind and continued to feel hurt and betrayed. My heart has continued to ask what if? Will she do it again? Where is her heart? Was everything we agreed to only lip service so she could get what she wanted?

Well of course most of these are the childish questions of a bruised heart, and I'm forcing myself to see and accept that now. And as if I needed further proof, just this morning she came down with shingles around her neck which is a sure sign of extreme stress. Nothing less than visible evidence of how greatly this has upset her. She has been so worried I was going to leave her that it's made her physically sick and that fact sickens me.

Bottom line is this: We both agreed before we went into that club that no matter what happened, we wouldn't let anything end us. If the experience went pear shaped, we would continue together no matter what. Well, I'm going to honor that agreement.

Through this ordeal I've learned a lot about the lifestyle, a lot about her, and yes, I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned I'm quite possibly too structured to fit into this lifestyle without further education and contemplation. I've learned that while she damaged my trust, I damaged hers as well. In clamming up and shutting her out that night, I wounded her greatly and went back on my word that we could talk though anything. That night I didn't think I could talk, I didn't even know how. But I have since and what I have realized is this: For the most part, you guys are right, it wasn't some well thought out plot, and it wasn't that she was trying to deceive me. It was a large combination of things that came together at just the right moment to screw us and the situation over.

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may. However, the people here who've taken the time and effort to help us have shown me that there is honor and caring among the people in this community, and that has restored my faith that maybe better things are possible.

Thanks guys, from both of us.

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may.

I think most people will pay at least some attention to your situation. However, unless they are really nice, they may well take the approach that you and your girlfriend are ultimately responsible for calling a halt when appropriate, and may expect you to understand each other very well. When it comes down to it, another couple cannot be expected to account for any communication problems or disconnects on your side. If they know you are new, they may pay extra attention, and they may be more cautious, if they are very considerate. But still it's your responsibility to handle anything on your side.

I must say you sound extremely nice and like you have a very good attitude, and that you know you are sensitive. You own your feelings and are willing to work with them but not ignore them. You have a lot of the qualities necessary for swinging and for a good relationship in general. Best of luck.

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

You know guys, obviously I've turned this thing inside out and not only in my head, but in my heart as well. And the one thing I've learned is I can't always get my head and my heart to agree. And Dave, my head has agreed with most everything you and Kat have told me, even though my heart has often lagged behind and continued to feel hurt and betrayed. My heart has continued to ask what if? Will she do it again? Where is her heart? Was everything we agreed to only lip service so she could get what she wanted?

Well of course most of these are the childish questions of a bruised heart, and I'm forcing myself to see and accept that now. And as if I needed further proof, just this morning she came down with shingles around her neck which is a sure sign of extreme stress. Nothing less than visible evidence of how greatly this has upset her. She has been so worried I was going to leave her that it's made her physically sick and that fact sickens me.

Bottom line is this: We both agreed before we went into that club that no matter what happened, we wouldn't let anything end us. If the experience went pear shaped, we would continue together no matter what. Well, I'm going to honor that agreement.

Through this ordeal I've learned a lot about the lifestyle, a lot about her, and yes, I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned I'm quite possibly too structured to fit into this lifestyle without further education and contemplation. I've learned that while she damaged my trust, I damaged hers as well. In clamming up and shutting her out that night, I wounded her greatly and went back on my word that we could talk though anything. That night I didn't think I could talk, I didn't even know how. But I have since and what I have realized is this: For the most part, you guys are right, it wasn't some well thought out plot, and it wasn't that she was trying to deceive me. It was a large combination of things that came together at just the right moment to screw us and the situation over.

I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may. However, the people here who've taken the time and effort to help us have shown me that there is honor and caring among the people in this community, and that has restored my faith that maybe better things are possible.

Thanks guys, from both of us.

I have one last thing to add... I appreciate and love your attitude, your maturity, and your compassion that you've shown through this whole situation. Especially toward your GF. I really hope she recovers from her shingles quickly. They are horribly painful and I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

Most couples, new and old, make goofs every once in a while, usually contributed to a lack of communication. That doesn't mean our love/trust or respect is lessened -- we just have to work through it and decide whether it's time to take a break for a period of time and reconnect or to continue on. One of the best attributes us members here on the board have is we're honest. We don't want to tell you what you want to hear -- we tell you the truth, which most times isn't what people want to hear. Your attitude regarding our responses shows us much about your character. We appreciate your responses in turn.

I don't blame you for not wanting to play with this couple again. I wouldn't want to play with them either. I think they were users and took advantage of your newness. I can only speak for us, but this is not typical of any of the swingers I've ever met, probably because we live in such a small area. It's too bad that you found players on your first time out.

[JustAskJulie]

I'm with LFM2 and just want to give you some kudos, in general, for how you are handling things. Yes, we all make mistakes and things happen and we twist them around in our heads trying to make them make sense. The best thing you can do is sit down and talk to your girl and really really spend some time talking through things. You've gotten some ideas from folks here on what might have been going through her head, use those to approach her in a non-judgemental non-blaming way and try to get to the heart of it. I loved what you posted in a similar thread that you have decided it's more important for your relationship to be happy than to continue to blame her.

Take this whole experience as a learning lesson. You now know how the general population of swingers think, take that information and adjust how you approach them based on that. We don't all assume the same things. For most of us, sex is sex and oral sex is something else. If oral sex is not an option for you, that's ok, just make sure you let them know that before you go into a room together. Make sure your boundaries are clear up front before you walk into a room and do not wait till you get in the room to change them or determine them. In the heat of the moment is never the time to make decisions.

You've learned alot here, and you'll get through it and you will both have a much more successful second time (if you choose to try again).

Also, keep reading other threads, and discuss them together. You'll run into other things that could happen and by reading others experiences and talking with each other about what you'd do in that situation you will learn even more about each other and about what you both really want out of this.

[truckerbuddy]

OK i must have missed it in here some where. But i have a question??

who bright the idea of swinging/lifestyle up?? was it the boyfriend or the girlfriend??

[NorthLaCpl]

Originally Posted by truckerbuddy

OK i must have missed it in here some where. But i have a question??

who bright the idea of swinging/lifestyle up?? was it the boyfriend or the girlfriend??

Well, that's sort of complicated to answer. The idea of her with another man was first brought up by the boyfriend, but once it was brought up, she immediately loved it and took full ownership of the idea. And then for about a 24 hour period, she didn't think she could handle the idea of the boyfriend being with another woman, but the more she thought about it, the more she liked the idea of not only the boyfriend being with another woman, but her as well. And at that point, the gloves came off and her attitude was, any and everything goes. And it did.

See my reply in another thread that may clarify things for you:

Originally Posted by NorthLaCpl

Hummmm, this one comment got me to thinking about a few things here. And as a guy who's experienced a situation similar to your own, I've been very interested in what the veterans here on the board would have to say about your situation. And it seems to me that by and large, you've received some solid advice. But then again I do freely admit that when it comes to the lifestyle, if a little knowledge is dangerous, well hell, I'm not even mildly hazardous. But that said, one thing has occurred to me and it's this: Maybe you should back off and look at it from a novices point of view? Back up to where you both were when you first started discussing this. What were your fantasies? What turned you on about it? What were you looking to get out of it?

I just can't help but get the feeling that you're a bit like myself. A somewhat old fashioned guy who grew up with the belief that "good girls don't". When you met the right gal, she was put on a pedestal and kept pure. And sure, you may play with the wild ones, you surely didn't take em home to mama. Still yet, time passes, you mature, and you start thinking about your woman as a more sexual creature. You like the idea of seeing her as purely sexual, of her enjoying herself and enjoying sex but just for the sake of sex, no emotions involved. So maybe you explore starting down this road.

But here's the kicker. Maybe you don't research this thing first. Because hell, how complicated can it be? It seems pretty straight forward in your fantasies! You've fantasied about it, you've both talked about it, and it's played out in your mind a hundred times, so naturally you feel confident enough to map out a path forward. Now the boundaries are set and you really believe you've got all the bases covered. But in reality, you don't even know the questions to ask. But you soon learn the same thing we learned, that walking into this lifestyle cold is a bit like filing a flight plan for an asteroid. That any and everything can happen, and will.

And see, here's what we missed. First of all, unlike in our fantasies, in the real world, the other three people get a vote, and not only can they vote, they will and unless things are done correctly, they just might vote on the fly! Secondly, maybe like me you find out that your woman is one hell of a sexual creature. That while it was pretty hot to think about in a fantasy, in real life it was a bit of a kick to the gonads. In my fantasies, I thought I'd have to hold her hand and maybe even persuade her, talk her though this, but no, that wasn't the case at all. In reality, she left me setting on my thumb while she went forth and did exactly what we'd talked about.

So to me, it really comes to this: I realized it's a bit futile to get pissed off at the fox after willingly throwing her in the hen house. That is of course an option, but the other option is to maybe believe her when she says that she loves you, believe her when she says it's you she wants to be with. And maybe realize you've both learned something about each other and use it as a tool to grow together.

Of course another option is to jet her and move on to someone new. But what happens if you start wanting to revisit these old urges? Do you start down this old path with a new woman? Now wouldn't that be a mucked up deal?

Just something to think about.

[truckerbuddy]

Then it sound like some one got what he wanted,, life with it.

If you didn't want it to go this far, he should have put the brakes on it all..

Sorry, but if you ask for something and get it.. oh hell now what am i going to do..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ENJOY<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[lizandtom]

NorthLAcple, not much more to add than what's been written above, although from what we've seen over the last 5 years is that the lifestyle is primarily about the women, and rightly so. In what other area of society are we allowed to marry our cake and eat it too? lol. Yea it was your idea, yea she felt comfortable right away and you suffered 'out of the gate shrinkage' and weren't comfortable with the extent she went to, and that couple left without explanation, but tomorrows another day. One thing's for sure I'd say; that other guy getting blown while you were out to the lu was probably not brought on by the guy himself. Usually a guy has to be wavered over and invited and certainly no one was forcing your girlfriend to do it to him. The point being, you probably felt left out, a bit intimidated due to the non-performance issue, imho, but that was one night and EVERY guy in the lifestyle has a bad night occasionally. As long as you two communicate honestly over everything, you should be fine. I think you will have to learn to go with the flow a bit over time, and relax about the rules as long as they're not 'in your face' blatantly being broken. Liz has made rules before, and before you know it she's gone back on her word and gotten into something. It happens, I learned to relax over time and go with the flow, but jokingly I used to ask her for the 'new set of rules' of the week, according to her whim. Good luck and enjoy it all.