I feel left out, she's so in the moment and unaware of my presence...

[maxmax98087]

My GF and I have been in the lifestyle for about 6 months and have attended 8 parties or so.
We have had about 4 full open swaps all of which went very well and we have been having a great time!
We have a great relationship and a set of rules that are working well.

There have been two incidents that have happened that have caused me to be uncomfortable and therefore have put some strain on the Lifestyle for us, and now we are at the point of considering if I'm cut out for this or not. Both incidents were well within the limits of our rules.

Not wanting to overload everyone with too much detail I will describe the feelings that I get when this happens and maybe some of you have some copping strategies for this. Or on the other hand you'll let me know if you think I'm not cut out for this.

Any advice or comments will be well appreciated.

The feeling I get is one of being disconnected, this happens to me when she's totally someplace else, meaning totally into what she's doing to the point of not being aware of my presence. I feel left out, she's so in the moment, and apart from me really interrupting (what I would consider being rude), it just seems to go on forever.

The first time this happened we were dancing together, and another woman started dancing with us, the two of them eventually started making out (this is nothing new and usually a big turn on for me), however this time she was so gone baby gone that she didn't even know I was there, I went and sat down as I was feeling a bit of a third wheel. Eventually after what seemed like forever (in reality maybe another song or two), she realized I wasn't there any more and came back over to me.

Second time was with a great guy that we both like, that we had already agreed that we would play with at some point in the future. We were both working the front desk at the club, and our friend came over and started flirting with her (again usually a big turn on for me). I had some stuff to do and left for a few minutes, came back to check in (neither of them noticed me) and they were making out (I'm kind of OK at this point, so I go out for a smoke (I can see them the entire time, I'm not hiding or anything), they're still making out and that feeling is coming back again, that feeling you get if you've ever caught someone cheating on you!

This seems to go on forever again. I come back and am standing right there, and gone baby gone.

We came up with a code word to use when I feel this way, which I told her and she stopped. But it was too late.

The end result in both of these cases was that we went and discussed privately, however I was too angry, hurt and accusatory to effectively talk and or listen like we do in every case of our lives when problems arise.
And she feels like she isn't doing anything wrong, (and she's not), and now doesn't know what's OK and what's not, and is walking on pins and needles and doesn't feel safe bing herself.

I do know that if this happens again and I do not have a better way of dealing, it will be then end of our Lifestyle participation.

So if this resonates with anyone, please let me know what you have done to work this out!

Again sorry for the length of this post, I tried keeping it short, I really did!

[realcplub2]

Feeling the way you do is normal, and can be a bitch to deal with.

I cannot say that you arent cut out for the lifestyle or not, because thats honestly your call. Let me however come at this from a different direction.

You state quite plainly, that you have gone to clubs and been in full and open swap situations with 4 other couples. Would you say that these feeling came up when that was going on? or were you sort of more busy with what you were doing or what all was happening to feel that way?

These feeling are centered around one thing, a bit of insecurity that you are feeling, because she is so wrapped up in whats going on she forgets you.. BUT, when its over, does she SEEM the same as before? Does she even go one step further and act apologetic?

I would say its time to have a bit of soul searching on your part, and a long conversation on just these topics.. More often than not it happens in a threesome situation. Not in a club, but it certainly CAN happen.. the best solution before pulling the I Quit trigger would be to talk it out.

[Alura]

My guess is that it'll happen again, Max, since the feeling is in your mind, not in her actions. In fact, it reminds me of a time when Mr. Playmate was fondly stroking Mrs. Alura's hair while the four of us were relaxing after playing. For some reason, it elicited jealousy pangs in me. Just talking it over with my wife (later) eased my feelings about the situation, but she made sure not to allow it again. Inexplicably, a more sexual event would not have bothered me... at least it never has.

Perhaps y'all are candidates to be a "couples only" couple. It may be that the problem exists when you are left out of the play. If y'all were with a couple you'd probably be too busy with Mrs. Playmate to be bothered by whatever your lady might be doing.

Mr. Alura

[maxmax98087]

Originally Posted by realcplub2

You state quite plainly, that you have gone to clubs and been in full and open swap situations with 4 other couples. Would you say that these feeling came up when that was going on? or were you sort of more busy with what you were doing or what all was happening to feel that way?

I do feel that way a bit if I'm not able to participate in some way. But it hasn't been in any way the issue that these other two are...

Originally Posted by realcplub2

These feeling are centered around one thing, a bit of insecurity that you are feeling, because she is so wrapped up in whats going on she forgets you.. BUT, when its over, does she SEEM the same as before? Does she even go one step further and act apologetic?

Yes, she's there just like always, and she would be apologetic if I didn't become so upset, she ends up feeling attacked.
The problem for me is that I can't seem to predict when this is going to happen.

Originally Posted by realcplub2

I would say its time to have a bit of soul searching on your part, and a long conversation on just these topics.. More often than not it happens in a threesome situation. Not in a club, but it certainly CAN happen.. the best solution before pulling the I Quit trigger would be to talk it out.

That is the plan, soul searching today, talking tonight!

[dodgechevy]

V here. For me it sounds more of general jealousy issues than really sex/swinger jealousy.

For example, if you were out with 2 good friends and they started a conversation that they really got into but it was about something you knew nothing about, you would probably start feeling angry about not being included.

Again, I think that if you had your own playmate to talk/play with you would probably be completely fine.

T also gets very passionate, and on the occasions where she is really having fun to the point that she zones out I tend to be a happy watcher or go off and find my own fun.

[2inSanDiego4u]

Besides playing with couples only like Alura has suggested, you can also consider playing in separate rooms. Some couples find that it is easier to start out this way if these feelings of jealousy and insecurity become too much to deal with. Talk this out with your partner and see what you can come up with. Maybe you just need a few more rules in place.

[iapr]

As a general rule a good barameter to measure how things are going for you in the lifestyle is how you and your partner feel about each other and how you relate to each other before, during and after an event. If you feel more in tune with each other and more turned on by each other and can't keep your hands off of each other before, during and after an event you are on the right track.

If on the other hand you are feeling disconnected, anxious or uncomfortable there is an issue somewhere that needs to be addressed. If you are feeling that way EVEN IF noone is doing anything wrong and no rules have been broken, it is still a problem and if you try and rationalize it away and ignore it will grow and fester and there will be drama.

The question I would have for you first is how is your relationship with her in all other facets of your life? Are there other times and activities where you feel is she is disconnecting from you? Are there other times she is "in the moment" and you feel like a third wheel? Since you refer to her as your GF I assume you are not married and have no serious committment to each other.
Do you have fears or insecurities about her finding someone else or losing interest in you and moving on whether it is in the lifestyle or in regular life?

Swinging is nothing but a big amplifyer. If a relationship is sound and healthy it will amplify that. If a relationship has issues or insecurities or weaknesses it will amplify that as well.

It sounds to me like noone has broken any rules or done anything that was fundamentaly wrong. Therefor i do not believe there is a simple fix. I do believe there is trouble here and I believe it needs to be addressed head on and taken seriously.

I also beleive that 99% of the feelings of discomfort that occur in swinging (I call them the hee-bee Jee-bees) are coming from within the primary relationship and not from swinging it'self, but rather those issues are being intensified and brought to the surface by swinging.

Look into your own feelings and into the relationship as a whole and you will find your source of discomfort.

[maxmax98087]

Originally Posted by iapr

As a general rule a good barameter to measure how things are going for you in the lifestyle is how you and your partner feel about each other and how you relate to each other before, during and after an event. If you feel more in tune with each other and more turned on by each other and can't keep your hands off of each other before, during and after an event you are on the right track.
.

Yup, with the exception of these two times, we are much closer as you note above

Originally Posted by iapr

The question I would have for you first is how is your relationship with her in all other facets of your life? Are there other times and activities where you feel is she is disconnecting from you? Are there other times she is "in the moment" and you feel like a third wheel? Since you refer to her as your GF I assume you are not married and have no serious committment to each other.
Do you have fears or insecurities about her finding someone else or losing interest in you and moving on whether it is in the lifestyle or in regular life?
.

Sorry, my bad for appearing to minimilaze our relationship, we have been living together for alost a year, and are going to get married next year. We have a very serious, committed and fulfilling relationship, with no issues or concerns about not being right for each other now or in the future.

[iapr]

Ok in that case there are a couple things that come to mind. One is you both need to find a way in which you aren't sidelined while she plays or frolicks. This can be a lot easier said than done as women will always have a million more opportunities to play and mingle than men. You may both each need to make some concessions. A concession you may need to make is to realize that you will need to work a lot harder for less return than her and she may need to accept less quantity of playmates and interactions in order to keep you involved and feeling less left out.

I'm not necessarily saying that you are guilty of this, but I do see a lot of men "riding the coattails" of their hot partners thinking that there hot chicks will bring them their prey and that they will get playtime just because their partners are popular. It just doesn't work that way unfortunately. Men have to get off their duffs and get out there and engage people in conversations, flirt, dance and find their own playmates. They can't just rely on their partners to bring them playmates because even though some chicks may want to roll around with your lady, that doesn't mean she will also roll around with you. And also because some guy may have the hots for your lady that doesn't mean that his fem partner will be interested in you either. You have to get out there and schmooze the ladies on your own merits and not sit and wait for your lady bring you playmates, otherwise all you will be doing is waiting and watching from the sidelines. Swinging is as easy as breathing for women but men have to put a lot of effort into it for a lot less return.

Your lady also needs to realize that this is an issue for you and if left to fester could spell big time problems for you as a couple. She needs to realize that in order to keep you involved that her play time may need to be limited to people that will be interested in you and keep you in involved in the process.

Swinging as a couple is vastly different than "picking up chicks/guys" as a single. It is a lot more complex and more of a balancing act. As a couple you will have more dry spells and you will go home from the club empty handed more times than not. The payoff is when the stars do line up it is worth the wait and your primary goal should always be peace and harmony within the relationship as a couple.

[lustylearning]

Having had a strongly negative experience early on with my husband feeling very left out, I feel compelled to post here. I would agree with IAPR in a number of points, but also wish to point out that some of what you're experiencing may all boil down to newness in the lifestyle. It is absolutely true that in the lifestyle there will be times of inequality, when each of you will feel like you're on the short end of the fun stick. At first, this is disconcerting, angering - you may be feeling the "hey, this isn't furthering 'our' agenda, so you shouldn't be doing it," sensations. I point this out because you have had a number of good experiences together. Over time, you may find though, that what angers you now, you will come to view as harmless fun later.

My husband and I are pretty good now about recognizing what sort of separate flirting is acceptable, even when it will not result in mutual play for both of us. Those opportunities, in our case, are typically generated from within a group of people we have come to trust. The opportunities outside of that group are limited. If a man we do not know well tries to kiss me, he may get a brief interaction (depending on the leadup), but if his female partner isn't around or is around and not showing interest in my husband, it will end there, and vice versa. We are more flexible with female/female interaction, especially in a club setting, because that often serves to heighten everyone's arousal, including his. This more relaxed attitude, however has developed over time. In that time, his good experiences have grown, along with his confidence, as have mine. I guess at some point, you get to a place where you do not feel you are lacking...

Ultimately, you are the ones with the power to determine the root of the problem, and you are the ones who must find the solution. If that's leaving the lifestyle, don't sweat it. If it's lifestyle-related growing pains, accept it. Whatever you do, though, work through it, otherwise, as IAPR pointed out, there will be drama, and who needs that?

[sweet_tna]

I can understand how your wife feels. While Mr. Sweet was never outright angry or accusatory with me, he did get upset about some things that I knew were well within our boundaries. He was having some feelings of jealousy that (even by his own admission) were irrational. While he worked through those feelings, and even to a point afterward, I felt I was on "pins & needles," afraid that I might accidentally do something to upset him.

Once he took some time to sort things out in his head, we did a LOT of talking--about how he felt, how I felt, and how we could find a way to work within both our comfort zones so that we could both enjoy playtime activities.

Sounds like that's what you and your girlfriend need to do. I agree that sticking with couples only and/or separate rooms may benefit you. I hope you're able to work these things out.

=)

[iapr]

Originally Posted by lustylearning

Having had a strongly negative experience early on with my husband feeling very left out, I feel compelled to post here. I would agree with IAPR in a number of points, but also wish to point out that some of what you're experiencing may all boil down to newness in the lifestyle. It is absolutely true that in the lifestyle there will be times of inequality, when each of you will feel like you're on the short end of the fun stick. At first, this is disconcerting, angering - you may be feeling the "hey, this isn't furthering 'our' agenda, so you shouldn't be doing it," sensations. I point this out because you have had a number of good experiences together. Over time, you may find though, that what angers you now, you will come to view as harmless fun later.

My husband and I are pretty good now about recognizing what sort of separate flirting is acceptable, even when it will not result in mutual play for both of us. Those opportunities, in our case, are typically generated from within a group of people we have come to trust. The opportunities outside of that group are limited. If a man we do not know well tries to kiss me, he may get a brief interaction (depending on the leadup), but if his female partner isn't around or is around and not showing interest in my husband, it will end there, and vice versa. We are more flexible with female/female interaction, especially in a club setting, because that often serves to heighten everyone's arousal, including his. This more relaxed attitude, however has developed over time. In that time, his good experiences have grown, along with his confidence, as have mine. I guess at some point, you get to a place where you do not feel you are lacking...

Ultimately, you are the ones with the power to determine the root of the problem, and you are the ones who must find the solution. If that's leaving the lifestyle, don't sweat it. If it's lifestyle-related growing pains, accept it. Whatever you do, though, work through it, otherwise, as IAPR pointed out, there will be drama, and who needs that?

This is a good post with some good info, however I am not sure I am comfortable with saying that accepting growing "PAIN" is inevitable or desireable. If something is causing enough distress to cause accusations, anger, and feelings of hurt and disconnect there is an actual problem that needs affirmative attention.

What is important and a good point to come away from lustylearning's post though is that they worked together as a team to come up with a system that works for them (ie not accepting the advances of others if the other's partner is not onboard as well). If you are going to swing as a couple, you need to be united as a team and work together as a couple.

As I said in one of my previous posts, swinging is not picking up chicks/guys and a lot of the rules and methods that you both used to use as singles to get people into bed no longer apply. As a swinging couple you must together to reep the rewards together. If one is feeling left out or taking one for the team and is suffering distress over it there will be a hefty price to pay at some point down the road.

[absingleman]

Many of the people have already said what I was going to say. I just want to reiterate that this is swinging, not dating, and definitely not being in a committed relationship. The two of you have only been together as a couple for a year, so there is going to be some natural insecurity in the relationship until you both get to know what lines neither of you will cross when swinging is concerned.

Were you both swinging as singles? This may be where the disconnect is coming from. You are both still learning not to go into single mode when you are at parties and approached by a single versus a couple. Both of you, from your description, slip back into single mode. She moves ahead and starts flirting and making out as a single, and you start to wonder why no one seems interested in you. You know you are going home with your girlfriend, but the fact that swinging is going to be easier for her as a single makes you feel that you are not neccessary for her to have fun.

That is not true, and intellectually you know it. But in that one moment where you see yourself as a single guy with a single woman who suddenly is interested in someone else keeps you from finding imaginative ways to join her or enjoy the situation for what it is.

"Don't sweat the small stuff" is the best advice that I can give you. In swinging, sex is the small stuff, especially if you are part of a couple. Don't let the fact that she gets more attention get you down. She is a woman. She lives (to a certain extent) on socializing more than most men do. Just enjoy the sight of her enjoying herself and learn how to hold her attention even when she is involved in conversation/flirting/making out/having sex with someone else without breaking her mood or feeling you have to join in the action. Teach yourself to lean back, savor the view, and offer words of encouragement to them. That in itself will probably open new types of play into your part of the lifestyle and may even create some new fantasies for your to contemplate and enjoy.

Hope I helped.

[mixtupcpl]

These are all great posts and this really is something where your best bet is to digest everything everyone is saying and figure out which approach resonates best with you.

For example, it is possible that you may never be able to find yourself comfortable with the approach of leaning back and savoring the view as ABSingle mentions above. Or maybe you may find you love that. And *either way* is fine.

There is also nothing wrong with, as others have stated above, slowing it down and sticking to "couples only" where you dont play unless there is a four way vibe. Not everyone is ultimately going to be turned on by the same things and it doesnt make you "wrong" or "not cut out for this" if the idea of just watching her play 90% of the time isnt something you're comfortable with.

I guess what I'm saying is don't feel that there is a rule book you have to follow. Find what the *mutual* comfort zone is for both of you and make sure that the *most* sensitive party is ok before you move forward. Make sense?

[fun4Ds]

I may be wrong but I get the feeling from your post, these problems occur in different settings. One in a swinger/lifestyle setting and the other in a vanilla bar setting. If I'm wrong I apologize before hand.
[QUOTE=maxmax98087;348656]

My GF and I have been in the lifestyle for about 6 months and have attended 8 parties or so.
We have had about 4 full open swaps all of which went very well and we have been having a great time!
We have a great relationship and a set of rules that are working well.

Where and how did you meet these people ?

There have been two incidents that have happened that have caused me to be uncomfortable and therefore have put some strain on the Lifestyle for us, and now we are at the point of considering if I'm cut out for this or not. Both incidents were well within the limits of our rules.

It would seem you have good communication between yourselves so far about when you play as a team or together. Seems like you have a problem when your separated a bit.

Not wanting to overload everyone with too much detail I will describe the feelings that I get when this happens and maybe some of you have some copping strategies for this. Or on the other hand you'll let me know if you think I'm not cut out for this.

I know when we talk about things Details or even small words mean bigger things. Your age and relationship experience might make allot of difference. Might I ask either ? I saw you have been together 1 year and swinging 6 months.

Do you consider this an open relationship ?

How did this lifestyle get brought up ?

Any advice or comments will be well appreciated.

You can ask Mrs fun, there are many times I don't understand something . So I ask questions. I know I have a few now

The feeling I get is one of being disconnected, this happens to me when she's totally someplace else, meaning totally into what she's doing to the point of not being aware of my presence. I feel left out, she's so in the moment, and apart from me really interrupting (what I would consider being rude), it just seems to go on forever.

I can relate to this somewhat. I felt when we first actually swapped, I also felt something like this. It was hard separating the feelings of "we are together on this , but yet your over there, and I'm over here." It was confusing but talking helped allot. I can't say I wasn't ready or wasn't cut out for this lifestyle. Cant hardly say that about you either. There are just some things that cant be explained or gone over before hand. We don't know until they do happen, what or how we may feel.

The first time this happened we were dancing together, and another woman started dancing with us, the two of them eventually started making out (this is nothing new and usually a big turn on for me), however this time she was so gone baby gone that she didn't even know I was there, I went and sat down as I was feeling a bit of a third wheel. Eventually after what seemed like forever (in reality maybe another song or two), she realized I wasn't there any more and came back over to me.

This has me confused and would make a very big difference. It sounds like you were in a vanilla bar. I know in a swingers bar, Mrs.fun could dance and possibly do a chemistry check. At the same time, watching me. I think in general women can multi task better than men. But even then, I couldn't feel left out. I would be checking everyone out at the club and socializing, if I am not dancing. Its a vanilla bar where I might be found just sitting there, as its not proper to be out hitting on women or couples there. Looking around I see allot of other guys just sitting there while the girls are dancing in a vanilla setting. Its one of the reasons we don't mingle with swingers in a vanilla bar. To much cross over in the rules of play.

Second time was with a great guy that we both like, that we had already agreed that we would play with at some point in the future. We were both working the front desk at the club, and our friend came over and started flirting with her (again usually a big turn on for me). I had some stuff to do and left for a few minutes, came back to check in (neither of them noticed me) and they were making out (I'm kind of OK at this point, so I go out for a smoke (I can see them the entire time, I'm not hiding or anything), they're still making out and that feeling is coming back again, that feeling you get if you've ever caught someone cheating on you!

When you say we were both working the front desk. Do you mean you both work at the club, or hooking up with possible playmates at the front desk. That confuses me Thats what makes me think your taking swinging to a different place. We don't play in the vanilla world. Even being discrete would have its differences and downfalls. Like I say, my wires are crossed perhaps.

This seems to go on forever again. I come back and am standing right there, and gone baby gone.

I'm a little confused again here. Do you have an open relationship of (you do your thing and Ill take care of myself ?) I mean, if you want her to seek playmates. Unless you have a we only play together rule, She is going to be out there. And you should also. I still don't get it. I know even having sex with an extra male in our playing I have felt out of the loop while Mrs.fun is enjoying, but I have a responsibility to either find something to do on my part or GET RIGHT BACK IN THERE ! I couldn't hardly feel like I was butting back in. We play together, if someone els doesn't want me in the mix. TOO BAD for them, I'm usually part of it.

We came up with a code word to use when I feel this way, which I told her and she stopped. But it was too late.

Well, code words are a way to express things but Ill be honest. Mrs.fun is usually pretty wrapped in the sexual atmosphere to catch something like " Blue times two, or my elbow hurts" Been there done that. When I offered my code word like we talked about it failed. Not that she was unconcerned or not caring. Its like she said " I was fucking I didn't hear you " I thought we were past the point of code words" " from now on lets just say "STOP" and say it like its the most important thing as if the place was on fire. It is kind of hard at times giving signals and having them received after a few drinks and the sexual tension is at hand. I don't mind saying, when Mrs.fun is going at the pursuit of sex and her motor is revved. It might take a little more to stop her sometimes. I'm pretty sure of it

The end result in both of these cases was that we went and discussed privately, however I was too angry, hurt and accusatory to effectively talk and or listen like we do in every case of our lives when problems arise.

Now this is serious stuff. When anger enters the picture, there are like others have said, more to this. Not knowing your age and relationship experience I think there is something that needs to be seriously talked about between you two.

I learned something along time ago. There are no two emotions more closely connected than ANGER and LOVE. These two are so easily intertwined. Both will make a person do things with no justifiable reasons. Both need to be kept in check. Both need to be understood. This is a complicated thing. I cant help think in your relationship, you need to understand how closely these two resemble one another. Both need to be separate from swinging. In my opinion.

And she feels like she isn't doing anything wrong, (and she's not), and now doesn't know what's OK and what's not, and is walking on pins and needles and doesn't feel safe bing herself.

I can imagine how she feels. I'm confused understanding myself. I'm sure she has many things to sort out. On one hand your swinging and having sex with others. Then obviously you have opened the door of be yourself, sexually. Then you have issues about all this. Especially to a point anger problems ?

Wouldn't you think that just like when you were talking with the man at the desk. You said you both liked him. Sex was already discussed in the future. Then you actually left the scene. You had something els to do and then you went for a smoke. In a swingers club many things happen while we are apart from each other. Kissing, flirting,fondling, you know. You have already done more than this yourself if you have swapped. Its not like they went to get a room and didn't check with you. You should have stepped up to the plate and been in on what you found upon your return. I mean you could have said anything like. "Hey you guys, not without me" anything... something.. But instead you wanted her to what ? Drop the guy, blow him off... you said yourself sex was in the future. I think you are being unfair the way this went down. Without anger, you should have been able to say we have gone over how I feel about this. But instead you are just now discovering this yourself. How could you be angry at anyone but yourself.... Not her ? Did she say she wouldn't flirt with others. Did you discuss this before hand ?

I do know that if this happens again and I do not have a better way of dealing, it will be then end of our Lifestyle participation.

Well thats simple. Keep losing your cool without expressing how you feel and setting guidelines calmly. Sure enough, you wont be participating. It seems your only issue is mingling with others without you at her side. You two really need to talk about this.

Like I say I may be wrong, I just get the vibe these two issues came about in a vanilla setting instead of a swingers club. And again I apologize in advance if I'm wrong.