A long one but need advice please!

[nervous2tryagai]

Hi everyone,
This is a long one, and I really need some feedback from someone who understands, so grab a cup of coffee and read on

Situation is this. Approached by the wife of a couple that we know very very well. I was interested, hubby was a bit more reserved. Finally got all on the same page. Ground rules were set. We were doing this with people we knew because we felt that there was less of a chance of "love" coming in to play, as with a stranger you don't know. Hubby told me he didn't want to know a play by play of what I did. I told him I wanted to know when he did - it added excitement for me, picturing him with someone else.

I never did much. Some petting and kissing. I was led to believe nothing happened between hubby and other woman. I knew some emails were happening, but was told it was "light bantor". Things hit the head so to speak 3 weeks later when it felt like something was going on that I was unaware of. There had been, in fact, 3 secret meetings of full blown sex, phone sex, hubby telling the woman about some of our fights, and her adding her two cents, putting me in a bad light. She pushed for "secret". Told my hubby to delete all emails, make sure phone calls couldn't be traced, etc. Broke the rules her hubby put on her (no cumming inside her, etc). Told my hubby she loved him during sex and begged him to say it to her. Lies, betrayal. Her telling him she was in love with him. And then both of them telling me nothing happened. Hubby, filled with grief and shame told me everything. SHE felt betrayed by him. That he broke her trust. There's so much more but it would take forever to put here and you'd get bored.

Not sure what to do. I do believe hubby was very manipulated, but again, he is not blameless. I do believe he loves me and wants to take back the pain he caused me. She would swing with him again in a heartbeat. These "friends" are like family and we have to see them often.

Our sex life since all this has been wonderful. Less inhibited, more creative. I think in a sick way, knowing how much she wanted him, makes me want him so much more. Does that make sense? We have talked about taking it slowly with STRANGERS in the future. It is something that I really want to be able to experience. Right now, I am trying to understand how a good, grounded man, could let it get so far before ending it. Any one had this happen? How do I handle all of this? I feel very betrayed and love my husband and want to be with him. I just want to find a way to get past the hurt that came out of it. Let me say, I am not upset about the sex. I am upset that "feelings" came into it. Hubby says it was fantasy, never reality. I do believe it was her reality. She wanted him and wasn't happy with just sex and told him that. Again, these ppl are like family and I have to see them all the time. How do I handle this? Thanks so much for any advice and for hanging in this long!!

[2insandiego4u]

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

These "friends" are like family and we have to see them often.

Wow! You should stop seeing them, at least for a while, and get into some form of couples counseling. That is just an opinion, but it sounds like you need to work on your relationship before proceeding with the lifestyle.

[tittietwister]

That's an affair - not swinging.

Sounds like she knew what she wanted and the overture to swing was just a pretense to pursue a relationship with him. Now he's shown he can't be trusted to honor rules.

I think you need to less concerned about experiencing swinging and more concerned about understanding why he succumbed so easily and what you can both learn from this to strengthen your marriage. Perhaps a counselor could help.

[rtb111]

I had a slight thing happen like this. We broke it off with the couple. There was alot of texting, and IMing that I found out about later. We had also discussed swinging with the couple, and my husband had an affair with her. They did it before we had set any ground rules. Then I said Ok lets go and sent her home on a sliver platter. She was suppose to call her husband to tell him she was going to the house. That was the second time and I did not know about the first time. She never called her husband. He knew about the first time, she blurted it out, but never called him about the second time.

You two need to work through it. It was a tough time for us, but we are on the same page now.

[rtb111]

Oops forgot! This couple was suppose to raise our kids if something happened to us. That is how "family" we were.

[N&G]

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

We were doing this with people we knew because we felt that there was less of a chance of "love" coming in to play, as with a stranger you don't know.

What would make you think that would be true?

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

I do believe hubby was very manipulated, but again, he is not blameless.

I have another thought. Your husband has been having an affair with your friend for a long time and wants to do it openly. Do you think all this happened because of one encounter? I am suspicious about the entire story.

[jjtrindc]

Clearly lines were crossed - emotional, physical, trust, etc. I would suggest couples counseling to really get to the root of what happened.

[SnowwwWhite]

You can do whatever you choose, so take my advice as such. But I'm a protective and possessive person and I believe in the primary relationship as the center of all activities.

Get out. Get out. Get out. (Of this swinging scenario)

If it was me, I'd go so far as to relocate and never have contact with these people again. This woman cannot be trusted, and as another poster mentioned you need to question how your husband could let this sort of thing happen.

The good news is that by confessing to you and exhibiting guilt and honesty, he does love you and wants to protect what you have. I'd be appalled that she felt he "betrayed" her... no doubt she was trying to build a little secret fortress of love between her and him. Sounds like she seduced and manipulated him... and once he had a chance to recover from the "spell" he came right back to you.

Don't risk it again! His admission is a cry for help of sorts... letting you know that he is weak and will succumb to a woman who uses her powers to persuade him. I don't agree with people who say to stay away from that couple for "awhile." DO NOT TRUST THIS WOMAN WITH ANYTHING. Here's my suggestions:

1) Move away. Use this as an impetus for you and your husband to better your life in a new city. It will be exciting and intensify your bond with him.

2) If you just cannot move, find a way to remove yourself from this couple's life... move across town, relocate your kids to another school, join a different church, don't go to the same clubs, restaurants, malls, etc. Stay away from this toxic woman. And certainly rescind their "godparent" status.

I know I'm being harsh, but nothing good can come from this relationship. She wanted your husband and seduced you guys into a situation where she could test her desirability against you.

I'm curious to know what your decision is.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

Things hit the head so to speak 3 weeks later when it felt like something was going on that I was unaware of. There had been, in fact, 3 secret meetings of full blown sex, phone sex, hubby telling the woman about some of our fights, and her adding her two cents, putting me in a bad light. She pushed for "secret". Told my hubby to delete all emails, make sure phone calls couldn't be traced, etc. Broke the rules her hubby put on her (no cumming inside her, etc). Told my hubby she loved him during sex and begged him to say it to her. Lies, betrayal. Her telling him she was in love with him. And then both of them telling me nothing happened. Hubby, filled with grief and shame told me everything. SHE felt betrayed by him. That he broke her trust. There's so much more but it would take forever to put here and you'd get bored.

This is why many will not mix swinging and friendship, especially if the friendship came first. Think about it, if you are already friends then there is already a bond between you, that really makes it that much easier for things to develop in a direction you don't want to go. I do understand your point of view, feeling that since these are such close friends that you'd all want was best for each other and less likely to have something develop, but unfortunately it didn't work that way. The truth is that while with a stranger you don't know what may happen on their end, it's much easier to cut ties if things do start to take a turn towards a direction they shouldn't AND you don't lose friends in the process.

That said, you've already lost your friends. If you can even call HER a friend to begin with - which I don't think you could. As others said, this was not swinging, this was her convincing your husband to have an affair with her, to CHEAT on you. This isn't about swinging boundaries but about relationship and emotional boundaries. At this point the only real choice you have is to cut ties with them completely and go your seperate ways and focus on your relationship.

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

Our sex life since all this has been wonderful. Less inhibited, more creative. I think in a sick way, knowing how much she wanted him, makes me want him so much more. Does that make sense? We have talked about taking it slowly with STRANGERS in the future. It is something that I really want to be able to experience.

I think we all find things more attractive when we know that others want them. It's just human nature.

Be careful with the idea of taking it slow with a stranger or you may find yourself right back where you are. When you take things slow, strangers are no longer strangers anymore. While you are just trying to get to a point where you feel comfortable with someone they are working their way into your life and relationship.

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

Right now, I am trying to understand how a good, grounded man, could let it get so far before ending it. Any one had this happen? How do I handle all of this? I feel very betrayed and love my husband and want to be with him. I just want to find a way to get past the hurt that came out of it. Let me say, I am not upset about the sex. I am upset that "feelings" came into it. Hubby says it was fantasy, never reality. I do believe it was her reality. She wanted him and wasn't happy with just sex and told him that. Again, these ppl are like family and I have to see them all the time. How do I handle this? Thanks so much for any advice and for hanging in this long!!

To one extent your husband was manipulated. Again I say you don't need friends like that. But at the same time he allowed it to happen. He may have been caught up in the idea of some other woman wanting him so much. But, if he's going to be that easily swayed, it may not be a good idea to swing at all. At the very least you should probably focus on only swinging together. When you pair off and go out seperately as you chose to do, you open those doors for things to happen. When you play together, and stay together, nothing can go on that everyone isn't aware of. Sure, someone may send some emails or text messages, and yes he may still sneak out behind your back.... but if he allows that to happen, you really have to question what is going on with him and with your relationship. That's not swinging, it's cheating.

[nervous2tryagai]

Let me first say how much I appreciate all of your feedback. It's nice to finally have someone to talk to about this. It's been eating me up for a month.

I absolutely agree that counseling is a must. I want to try individual counseling on my own, to gain my "self worth" back so to speak. When I am able, I will have him join so we can work past it.

I do not believe this was an ongoing thing. After all this happened, I look and see all the warning signs that didn't make sense (on her end) until this blew up. Before it was even discussed (months ago), her mentioning my husband had a great sense of humor. Or how she felt him to be attractive. Things I hadn't paid much thought to.

When the situation came up, my husband was resistant. He is a reserved person by nature. After thought, he was a bit better about it. I was able to recover the first email that started all this, and see his reservations and then see her forcing the issue. My husband is typically a gentle man, not wanting to hurt a soul. I do believe she took advantage of that. This is a portion of the first email, several threads into it. It shows her secretive way and how she set him up to fail.

part she wrote:
I told T and A, if there is any part of these conversations they have with each other, if they want to keep them to themselves, then it's up to them. I won't ask about what they talk about at all. If it gets them excited to have a "secret" so to speak, then I want them to have it. So I won't share anything at all we talk about if you don't want me to.
To be honest, this is new to me as well. A and I have discussed certain things that may involve a third person (female of course)-
But then the talking came up about doing for lack of a better word "swap"- That thought got me very excited to think about. I think if you feel comfortable enough to talk, when you want to about it, even if it's just thru e-mail, it may help you a little. Might even help to get the "like a sister" part taken out. You can try to picture me, not as that, but someone getting you excited. Hmm...is this moving to fast this kind of talk?

I think if you are interested, and think it's a possibility, your thoughts will definitely change on how you think and react more to how you feel. And maybe gmail isn't the safest to keep some things to ourselves?

part my husband wrote:
The other side of this has to do with T and A though…meaning I need to be ok with them being together, which is something I hadn’t though of/given much thought to…but the last thing I want to do is break us up as a group. It’s a box that needs to be opened very carefully as a lot will change between all of us and once it is open there is no going back – it can’t be undone…

part she wrote:
Do you have a myspace? I think gmail is to easy to tap into. So make sure you delete, delete delete :0)

I know how you feel about them being together. I know I gave them both a green light to experiment. I want her to feel her excitement and him as well. I am comfortable knowing there will be no love involved. I know how he feels about us (me and him) and that's why I don't want a stranger involved. I trust them both (A and T) to not fall in love with each other.

Ok, we need something more private....

and then later on she said:
You do but you haven't logged into it since 2005. Dork :0)
Less likely to be checked is skype. Or I have a yahoo e-mail. Mypsace might not be a good idea, as thinking about it, I have to add you as a friend, and T will see you as my friend. Hmmmm...


End of email. It jumps a lot. I just pulled out the important parts that were relevant.

What that email showed me was the manipulation of keeping things secret, coming from her. She tried to tell me that my husband requested her to keep things secret and that she just played along. Never once was "secret" discussed. It was supposed to be "open, honest, purely sex," purely a way to spice up existing relationships, and get that excitement over feeling that new touch.

I do believe she fell in love with him. Several times, he told her it could "just be sex" and would she be ok with that. Her answer was "no, I don't think I can be" and then she would cry.

when it all hit the fan, she felt betrayed by him, felt he owed her to keep the "secrets" that they shared. The kicker, is that her husband was aware of most of what was going on. So why did she feel the need to keep it from me? To tell my husband she loved him, to tell him she wished that me and her husband didn't exist, so they could live "happily ever after"?

My husband was dead wrong. He knows it, I know it. I see the pain in his eyes, trying to figure out how to take it all back. I forgive him. I know he was wrong, but I also feel he played into the hands of a manipulative, selfish person, who would go after what she wanted at any cost.

I would love more feedback if you have time.

Thanks!!

[JustAskJulie]

My earlier post still stands. He was manipulated a bit and I would worry about how weak he may be that that could happen again. Hopefully, he's a fast learner and now that he's seen it happen once it won't happen again. Swinging solo (even with the same couple) is not something I would suggest you do again. Keep it together, as a couple.

I would suggest counseling, but I would suggest that you do it as a couple. I understand your reasoning for wanting to go alone at first, and you may need to go alone as well as go with him. But at this point your doubt of your self worth is greatly tied to him and his actions. You need to work through this together.

Originally Posted by SnowwwWhite

1) Move away. Use this as an impetus for you and your husband to better your life in a new city. It will be exciting and intensify your bond with him.

2) If you just cannot move, find a way to remove yourself from this couple's life... move across town, relocate your kids to another school, join a different church, don't go to the same clubs, restaurants, malls, etc. Stay away from this toxic woman.

While you do need to cut ties with this couple, no matter how good of friends you thought they were (SHE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND), you don't need to go so far as move, change your phone number, change your life or habits, etc. Doing so only adds drama to the drama. And running away is not the answer to anything. Let them both know that you no longer want any contact and make sure that they BOTH know why and leave it at that. If they try to call, don't answer. But if you run away every time something bad happens in this life (or lifestyle) you will find yourselves moving an awful lot.

There are many people in this LIFE that are going to do things that will hurt you. If you can't face those situations head on and then move on, you are going to have much bigger issues in life. I think most people at some point in their life have issues with someone big enough that they feel the need to remove that person from their life. Doing so can be done without any of the extreme measures in the above post. Typically, just letting them know that you are done is all you have to do. I lived in a VERY small town with the one person in my life that I will not have anything to do with ever and in the 7 years I lived there I passed him on the street twice and ran into him at a funeral once. I simply avoided him and if I saw him I did not speak and moved by quickly.

[lustylearning]

Oh, Julie's absolutely right. This woman is NOT your friend. Sounds like she's been waiting for the opportunity to snatch your husband, and you gave her the keys to the kingdom.

On a more practical note, what you describe does not sound like swinging to us. Jumping into separate play with people you know well sounds a lot more like dating or open marriage than partner swapping. What are your checks and balances? How about same room swap with a couple you don't know well, a couple that you have the ability to walk away from easily?

[nervous2tryagai]

We have decided that we want to explore options with strangers. It was new to us, and I think that's where a comfort level, knowing it was with people we "trusted" came into play.

I am considering going to a club/party/etc to try to meet some ppl. What is the etiquette on this? Is it expected that there will be swinging, or is it more of if it feels right, go for it, but if the situation doesn't fit, then it's ok to leave empty handed so to speak?

[sexcupid]

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

We have decided that we want to explore options with strangers. It was new to us, and I think that's where a comfort level, knowing it was with people we "trusted" came into play.

Well on one hand yes, it was probably more comfortable with long term friends. But I agree with other posters that there were already some emotional bonds there for them to be good friends and the other female just couldn't separate the two (sex/emotion).

Now, out of curiosity, you state that you didn't go very far with the other husband...was your husband aware of the fact you didn't have sex with the guy? Even though he might not have wanted to know details, he should have been aware of how far activities did go. And if you were restraining yourself and hoping he wouldn't do more than you did...

I am considering going to a club/party/etc to try to meet some ppl. What is the etiquette on this? Is it expected that there will be swinging, or is it more of if it feels right, go for it, but if the situation doesn't fit, then it's ok to leave empty handed so to speak?

There is quite a bit of information on here about clubs. Most of them there is little expectation, you aren't 'required' to play if you don't want to. This forum has some good info: Swinging at Clubs/Parties/Resorts - The Swingers Board

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by nervous2tryagai

I am considering going to a club/party/etc to try to meet some ppl. What is the etiquette on this? Is it expected that there will be swinging, or is it more of if it feels right, go for it, but if the situation doesn't fit, then it's ok to leave empty handed so to speak?

You said that YOU are considering doing this. What about your husband? Is this something you are thinking about doing together? Or you on your own?

I would definately suggest that for a while at least that you stick together and swing together, to prevent further trouble. That's if you swing at all, which really isn't a good idea until you completely work through the issues you are both dealing with. Jumping right back in is likely to lead to more trouble that neither of you want.