Outed?...but I only just got in!

[jdtpcouple]

Yesterday I got off the phone with my sobbing mother. She didn't say how she figured it out,but I'm guessing her access to my PC did the trick. One too many clicks on my internet browser back button, and the web history speaks for itself.

She tried to be clever & started the conversation by talking about the little girl who was kidnapped and murdered because "her parents were swingers." Then asked, "If you had the chance to choose that lifestyle, would you be willing to put your kids very lives at risk for your own selfish sexual gratification?"

It wasn't hard for me to see that she had
A - figured me/us out, and
B - made up her mind about what "those people' are like

She tried to say she was only concerned about the effect it would have on the children...then slipped up with a mention of how I was raised with "the teachings." Yes, she's religious. My bi-sexuality equals the eternal burning of my soul to her.

As far as her woe, "Won't someone think of the children"... Our adult time is separate from our family time. Our home is just that...a home. Right now the kids are preschoolers. They are focused on learning how to spell their own name and count to 100.

At the appropriate age, we'll begin talking with our kids about sex. We'll provide them with honest, accurate information about the different ways to express sexuality. We'll warn them about the dangers of STD's and educate them about how to protect themselves and their partner(s). All of this will be done without the use of fear, shame, or judgment.

While I don't expect others to agree with my chosen lifestyle...all I can be is me. As we began exploring the lifestyle we decided we wouldn't announce it to our friends/family because we know that the word swinger carries a negative connotation to most people. It would upset them and as a result put a strain on our relationship with them. At the same time we agreed that, were they to ask/find out, we wouldn't lie either. There are no negative consequences professionally, so we have the ability to be open about it.

That being said, my husband is a very private person. He feels very strongly that our sex life is not anyone else's business. Unless we choose to share it with them, We shouldn't have to discuss it, defend ourselves, or justify our choices.

Me? I'm more "Love it or leave it." I won't push my liberal views on sexuality on others, but if you are asking, don't think I'll sugar coat myself to try and fit in the socially and morally acceptable, hetero-monogamous box that you/God deem "good."

When I was 17 my mom searched my room and found my birth control pills. She packed everything I owned & threw me out, never to speak to me again (for about a year). She was convinced I'd be in the streets, doing drugs & paying for them with prostitution. A senior in high school and not able to legally obtain my own place to live, I stayed with a school friend for a couple of months until graduation. Then I was on my own.

I was cut off emotionally, socially, and financially from the sheltered Mormon community I was raised in. I attended junior college full time, worked two part time jobs (child labor laws preventing me from getting one full time), and lived in a seedy pay by the week motel where they didn't care that I was a minor as long as I paid the $125/week on time. In my own defiant way, I remained a "good" kid with "bad" morals. The days of being ashamed of my sexual desires are long over for me.

I would like to represent the lifestyle in a positive way and being prepared for the verbal assaults that are inevitably in my future will help me do this. I think its important for me to point out that we've only visited 3 on premise clubs since June of this year. I've heard people who've been in the lifestyle for over a year describe themselves as newbies, so what does that make us? Our experiences have all been so positive, but we are still finding our way.

What I want to know from the board is this:
What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us?
Has anyone else had this happen to them?
What will people ask me about?
How did/would you respond?

I'm not really looking for discussions about the kids, or whether or not I should have lied/covered it up. I didn't, it's out there, now how do I/we deal with it?

Here's what I'm expecting so far:
*accusations of defiling the sanctity of holy matrimony
*homosexuality is a sin
*sex with anyone besides your spouse IS cheating
*you're going to get AIDS & die, then you'll really be sorry

Please, add to my list and provide your answers/response.

[SuAndBud]

Isn't it the Mormons who espouse the practice of polygamy (but to the gratification of their menfolk, only)?

Sometimes we let our parents down, sometimes our parents let us down.

You will, no doubt, ocassionally let your children down and they will reciprocate.

It's all a question of from what perspective someone is coming from.

You might wish to point out that friendship is one of the greatest of gifts (dunno about you, but we are far closer friends to those within our, albeit small, lifestyle community than within our Vanilla circle - maybe it's a trust thing).

If you were not "swingers", she would probably not think twice that your sexual practises might have an adverse affect on her grandchildren. If you can somehow reassure her that this is not an issue, then she may well come to terms with it in time as she did with your sexuality at age 17 once the initial shock wore off.

Unfortunately there can be no guarantee, though as I well recall the reaction of my own mother, she too was a Mormon, when I first dated a "Lamenite" (black-skinned) girl.

She just couldn't reconcile herself to her faith's teachings (as follows):

"The God-fearing Nephites were "pure" (the word was only officially changed from "white" in 1981) and "delightsome." The idol-worshiping Lamanites received the "curse of blackness," turning their skin dark.

According to the Book of Mormon, by 385 AD the dark-skinned Lamanites had wiped out other Hebrews. The Mormon church called the victors "the principal ancestors of the American Indians." If the Lamanites returned to the church, their skin could once again become white".

Well, bully for that. Perhaps someone should mention this "fact" to Michael Jackson.

Sometimes we have to treat our parents in the same way that we treat our kids in that, whilst not agreeing with them or their actions, neither should we shut them out, but must always leave the door ajar for their hoped prodigal return.

Good luck.

[BiloxiCouple]

This is to clear up the Mormon representation here.

The Mormons haven't practised polygamy since the 1800's. It is not a part of their religion due to federal laws.

Lamanites are American Indians. They believe their used to be a curse on them. Also, the Mormons have a practise/policy/belief about black people (Canaanites). Which used to prior to 1978, limited their participation in the church.

Now for jdtpcouple:

Show your mom the message you have left here. It sounds like you spoke well. It's not her life, but your attempt to explain a little about yours. Then if she doesn't like it, no further discussion.

[roandronni]

It must be the fact we were raised in similar circumstances, but around paragraph 5 of your post I thought to myself, "God, her mother sounds just like mine would if she heard about my thoughts concerning the lifestyle, I wonder if she was raised Mormon?". What a lifestory you've told here. I wish I would have had your courage in my younger years.

I'm not sure I have much advice for you. I'm just barely poking at the surface of swinging. I know in my own life I would try to keep it a secret from my parents. There are things I do or have done that I know my parents wouldn't approve of, some they've found out about due to circumstances. My attitude has always been this is me now, if you want me in your life you need to accept it. They've yet to cut me off.

Much luck to you.

Ro (the male half)

[Chicup]

Ok let me help you out a bit in your approach.

Your questions are valid but only valid if you are dealing with a logical individual.

Your mother is not logical, she may well not even be completely sane. She threw you out of your house at 17 because you had birth control pills. First, I'm not even sure thats completely legal, you were a minor, second its most likely the dumbest thing you could do to someone who you are worried about 'going down the wrong path'.

Its got a lovely cruelty that would fit in well with the old testament but thats as far as I'd go making it any way holy.

This episode tells me you are not dealing with someone with a full deck. If you wanted to have fun with her, blame your swinging on that year she kicked you out and how you had to do 'things' to survive. Tell her you hope god forgives her for abandoning her child to the sodomites. Seriously, I'm sorry but what she did was fucked up.

So she spied and you and found out you were a swinger.

Well over all your questions are going to be meaningless. For someone who would kick out a 17 year old girl to the street, no logical argument, or scientific study on STD's is going to matter.

Good studies on swingers are rare because most good swingers don't participate in studies. While my feeling is swingers are on par to maybe even lower on the STD scale, you will be hard pressed to find real data. No one puts 'swinger' on their medical history if they care about being outed.

You may have to end up cutting off your mother on this one, and even with the little information you gave us I think it might be a good thing.

[SuAndBud]

To get back on-topic and try to answer some of the questions you said you wanted answered, rather than simply respond and offer comments &/or opinions regarding your situation:

What you can expect if/when you’re outed will very much depend upon who/what you are and who/what is the person that decided to throw anything at you at all.

Much negativity and narrow-mindedness and non-acceptance by some (you may even lose some friends – some valued, some not so). Many of these will be being genuine to themselves, but some may be closet-curious themselves or even downright intrigued, but afraid to admit it.

We all change throughout our lives in our opinions (especially with regard to sex) else no-one would ever break a marriage vow of fidelity – if said with sincerity.

Most non-gay males will go through at least a part of their puberty as homophobic (some maintain this attitude beyond puberty and some will subscribe to it unto the grave). A large number, however, will become tolerant of gays as they mature (particularly as they get to meet more gay males and females and share friendships with gay and non-gay folk alike). In some guys this Live-&-Let-Live attitude can morph into a Never-Say-Never philosophy that in turn can become curiosity and culminate in an actual unspoken desire to “Try-Before-You-Die” mentality. – Story of my (Bud’s) life. LOL.

The same can be said of “Swingers”. As we age, we go from disbelief (even disgust) to giggling to tolerance to nonchalance to curiosity to intrigue to “How on earth can I bring THIS subject up with my SO?”.

It depends who they are and at what stage of whatever cycle they happen to be on.

The worst case we know of, though, is a couple who were outed and ended up moving area (they lived in a pretty rough area where “Men are men and women are grateful” – you get the gist?). The poor chap involved had to put up with a daily barrage of men remarking that he was not man enough to satisfy his wife on his own and was often subjected to men saying stuff like “Can I bang your wife?...Why not?...Everyone else does…..What’s wrong with my dick, not good enough for her?”

Wholly intolerable, I think you’ll agree.

Any wonder we need tread careful?

[cassies]

If your mom kicked you out of the house when you were 17 and expected you to suffer on the streets, then what right does she have to have any judgement whatsoever about the life you are currently leading? None, in my opinion. You are going to hell, right? I mean, she already decided that. Why is she snooping around the hellbound's computer? I'd ask her that.

Your question is what kind of a relationship do you want with her? If you want to have a truthful family relationship, I think she would have to be willing to go to therapy with you.

I am sorry I can't answer any of the questions you asked.

Bob
(certainly going to hell in a mormon world.)

[tribbles]

What I want to know from the board is this:
What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us?
Has anyone else had this happen to them?
What will people ask me about?
How did/would you respond?

I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

Somewhere there is a web site for christians who swing....anyone able to find that link?

It might help with your questions.

Good Luck.

[SuAndBud]

Originally Posted by tribbles

I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

Somewhere there is a web site for christians who swing....anyone able to find that link?

It might help with your questions.

Good Luck.

I think this is it. Many here are Christian. Happily, some are of other faiths and some not subject to a spiritual faith at all.

Thank Buddha.

(SuAndBud - Buddhists - Not a faith, just a philosophy)

[FloridaFlirt]

Originally Posted by tribbles

I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

Somewhere there is a web site for christians who swing....anyone able to find that link?

It might help with your questions.

Good Luck.

I believe it is www.christlib.com....not sure on that. You could google "liberated christians" and see what comes up.

And tribbles is right--live as you want to live. Life is way too damn short not to!

[lovinher]

I had this whole paragraph written about the effect on your kids but then I remembered this...

I'm not really looking for discussions about the kids, or whether or not I should have lied/covered it up. I didn't, it's out there, now how do I/we deal with it?

I applaud you for your attitude, especially after what you have been through. Your life so far is an uplifting success story and you should be proud of yourself. Don't let your Mother ruin that.

Just curious, is Mother telling the community about you?

Other than that, I couldn't agree more with Chicup, cassies and tribbles.

[gandm]

I just wanted to say I'm sorry this happened to you. I haven't been through this, so I can't really answer your questions. But I wish you the best.

When I read your story, I felt myself becoming very angry. After my 2nd or 3rd reading, I am really impressed with how level headed your questions are in this situation.

Good Luck

[Edison Carter]

Ed here 1. The mother went looking for trouble and found it 2. She played the 'kid' card, which is always the bastion of people absent of understanding or context. 3. She has a very limited view and understanding of human sexuality.

Ultimately, you're not doing anything wrong, today. You weren't doing anything wrong when you were 17 and used birth control pills. You were taking charge of your sexual life. Taking that kind of control scares the hell out of some people.

[jdtpcouple]

Thank you to everyone who replied, and for all your support. I greatly appreciate getting so many responses to my situation.

Originally Posted by Chicup

Your questions are valid but only valid if you are dealing with a logical individual.

No kidding. I have learned over the years that my mom will initially respond with emotion. She feels that emotion, deals with it (eventually), then and only then can logic or reason be introduced. The people she'll talk to though...my step-dad, grandma, aunts...they'll be more likely to hear me when I speak in the language of "common sense."

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

Show your mom the message you have left here. It sounds like you spoke well.

Thanks, I intend to repeat the part about teaching my kids about sex verbatim. Probably to someone who will be open to hearing me though.

Originally Posted by SuAndBud

Sometimes we have to treat our parents in the same way that we treat our kids in that, whilst not agreeing with them or their actions, neither should we shut them out, but must always leave the door ajar for their hoped prodigal return.

Originally Posted by roandronni

My attitude has always been this is me now, if you want me in your life you need to accept it.

This is the attitude I took at 17 also. I am, who I am, if you choose to be a part of my life...great! If not, I respect your decision to believe what you will and will gladly welcome you back should you find a way to reconcile your religious conflict.

Originally Posted by SuAndBud

Many of these will be being genuine to themselves, but some may be closet-curious themselves or even downright intrigued, but afraid to admit it.

LOL. I just named 3 sets of vanilla friends that fit the 3 descriptions above. That's the reason we don't openly present our lifestyle to them. We know they won't get it & don't expect them to, but if they're asking...

Originally Posted by tribbles

I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

I think this is true in theory, but in practice I would alienate friends who may not agree, but who won't necessarily walk away from the friendship either.

Originally Posted by SuAndBud

You might wish to point out that friendship is one of the greatest of gifts

Golden, this is exactly what I was looking for. In the short time that we've been active in the lifestyle we've met two couples that I could realistically see having lasting friendships with. I would not have thought to make that point though, so I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[tribbles]

I think this is true in theory, but in practice I would alienate friends who may not agree, but who won't necessarily walk away from the friendship either.

You call people who give you comments that are judgemental, that you don't ask for, friends?
(If you ask for it, you can't complain. But unasked for?)

mmmmm........

You can always be the one to walk away from friendships that are not healthy.

Only you can decide when they aren't healthy for you.

I have (and would do it again), walked away from people who I once considered friends, when it looked unhealthy for me emotionally and mentally, to stick around them.