Question for the single women

[shoreguy]

Alright, I'm going to temper this a bit, because I've reread EBF and Julie's posts and found them to be a bit more balanced than I felt after the first reading. I got a little excited there for a minute.

Still, (no offense, but... ) you both sound jaded and bitter, like you've been at this too long and used too many times. Obviously, I don't know the first thing about what it's like to be a single bi swinging female. I'm aware that there are a lot of skeevy single males out there, and that double standards do exist.

But this seems to take the double standard way out to an extreme. This is (almost) a blanket statement condemning all single swinging men to never having an LTR with you. In fact, one result of EBF's opinion on the matter is that single men should hide that fact, get on her good side and then "accidentally" discover that about her. Great foundation there, a big fat lie. Seriously, please don't tell me that there's no chance that you could see past one thing (that you have in common!) for all men. I'd have to put that up there with men who are turned on by female bisexuality (uh, just about all of us), but wouldn't date a woman (or get upset when they find it out about their wife/gf) because "she wouldn't be good enough for me, that dirty slut".

IMNSHO, ES's experience should have been met with an "Aha, happy accident, one more thing in common" rather than how it turned out. There's no way to justify how it turned out, I don't care how much she's been screwed over in the past. It's not how they met, so it shouldn't matter. Don't feel that this is a universal opinion, ES. I know of a couple where he lost his swinger wife, and eventually found a nice single bi swinging female to fall in love with and marry. That was around 10 years ago.

[yawanna]

and most single women don't want to start a relationship with single men already involved in swinging(still don't get that one), why have an ad online saying I'm looking for someone?

head bang

*grabs ES by the shoulders (oh MY you're a big boy, aren't ya? ) and shakes him!!!*

'Cause she's doing two things at once? Swinging, and, looking for someone to have a LTR with. Separate things - at least we TRY to keep them separate.

Isn't this what you are doing, too? Keeping yourself in swinging, limited or not, and looking for a LTR.

Maybe she got burned once, or more, trying to combine the two. For whatever reason, she's not willing to even consider dating a man who is in swinging. She knows herself and she's made a decision we can presume is what she believes is the best one for her to make at this time.

I wish there were more postings from couples who met in this lifestyle and have amazing LTR's. 'Cause it can and does happen, just as women getting used by men to be tickets happens.

Personally, MrYawanna doesn't get that 'ticket' concept either...he can't imagine a man treating a woman that way. And maybe this is where your consternation comes from....you would never treat a woman badly or poorly or with disrespect or use her as a ticket.

Too bad she didn't stick around long enough to learn that about you. But.... she didn't. When you meet Ms Right.... y'all will 'click'...there won't be any confusion.... trust me

[EternallySingle]

Originally posted by yawanna
head bang

*grabs ES by the shoulders (oh MY you're a big boy, aren't ya? ) and shakes him!!!*

'Cause she's doing two things at once? Swinging, and, looking for someone to have a LTR with. Separate things - at least we TRY to keep them separate.

Isn't this what you are doing, too? Keeping yourself in swinging, limited or not, and looking for a LTR.

Maybe she got burned once, or more, trying to combine the two. For whatever reason, she's not willing to even consider dating a man who is in swinging. She knows herself and she's made a decision we can presume is what she believes is the best one for her to make at this time.

I wish there were more postings from couples who met in this lifestyle and have amazing LTR's. 'Cause it can and does happen, just as women getting used by men to be tickets happens.

Personally, MrYawanna doesn't get that 'ticket' concept either...he can't imagine a man treating a woman that way. And maybe this is where your consternation comes from....you would never treat a woman badly or poorly or with disrespect or use her as a ticket.

Too bad she didn't stick around long enough to learn that about you. But.... she didn't. When you meet Ms Right.... y'all will 'click'...there won't be any confusion.... trust me

hey, Yawanna Do it again

Seriously. I get it. Wrong person, wrong place, wrong time. I know about being used. Just happened to me a few weeks ago by one woman who wanted to stab another in the back. It hurts to know you were just a means to an end. I GET IT. Guess that experience, and seeing her Thursday and she bites my head off when I say hello, reopened up a not so old wound. head bang

I guess I was just a little bummed over the way my year has started out, thats all. Payed a little less attention to two other women because I really liked her, and she gets mad at me for having an ad on a swinger's site. Then one of the women I was also dating runs off with her preacher and the other goes back to her old boyfriend. If I didn't laugh about it, I'd go insane.

Last question. What did I do wrong in my past life for this to happen to me now? I keep seeing a pub or banquet hall, five women, and some men who remind me of jealous husbands dressed in Rennaissance era clothing, for some reason. And someone hits me with a white glove. hmmm I guess its time for another past life regression. Anybody know any good mediums or hypnotists?

[JustAskJulie]

Originally posted by EternallySingle
Thanks, everyone. Everything is a little clearer to me (and maybe to other single men in the same frame of mind as me). In short, swinging is a deal killer if you are a single man. If she knows from the beginning, she's suspicious of your motives involving a relationship with her. If she learns later, you've kept something from her, thus were dishonest and were probably, once again, using her for less than honorable reasons. hmmmmm

I think there is a middle line. I don't think you should tell a woman from the first date that you were at one time involved in swinging....but eventually things get to the point where you discuss your sexual past... it should come up then. As you've said you haven't been actively involved in a while, let them know that. Tell them the truth as you would tell them the truth about any aspect of your life, and leave it at that.

Later on, if at some point they decide they want to know more...they will ask and you can answer. Everyone has a past and I don't think you have to assume that yours will keep you from having a future. But I would suggest that you'll have better luck with non-swinger women than swinger women when looking for a relationship

[JustAskJulie]

Originally posted by shoreguy

IMNSHO, ES's experience should have been met with an "Aha, happy accident, one more thing in common" rather than how it turned out. There's no way to justify how it turned out, I don't care how much she's been screwed over in the past. It's not how they met, so it shouldn't matter. Don't feel that this is a universal opinion, ES. I know of a couple where he lost his swinger wife, and eventually found a nice single bi swinging female to fall in love with and marry. That was around 10 years ago.

I would agree with you there. In a situation such as that... where I had been talking to a guy / dating him then later found out he was a swinger... I wouldn't walk away because of it. My point was just saying that I woud most likely not on purpose date a single swinging male. Again it goes back to this statement from my original post:

I would probably not want to get into a relationship with a guy who was already involved in swinging (unless I had known him for a long while and spent a great deal of time with him both in and out of swinging).

In ES's situation, she had gotten to know him not as a swinger but as a person... so to walk away because she found him to be a swinger.... was well... a bit wrong.

[yawanna]

What did I do wrong in my past life for this to happen to me now?

Absolutely nothing. Meeting or not meeting a partner is not about payback for past wrongs.

You've posted several times that it's about being the best YOU can be.. the rest will come. "if you build it...they will come'.

Live your life the way it works best for you.

One large thing I've had to struggle with and this board has been a tremendous help in my understanding of it: keep moving when it's not working. Funny how swinging methodology can apply to our regular lives?

You meet couples and don't click? Move on. You meet couples and something doesn't sit right? Move on. You meet couples and you get along fabulously? Hang onto them

Take a break when you need to..when it starts to get you down. I dated a lot but when I had a string of very strange men and I was having visions like yours (mine was of me living a bohemian lifestyle at 50, with a young male lover, and being a pain in the butt for my son) ...I'd take a break and start a project at work or at home for awhile. No matter what.. I always had interesting stories to share

As do you. Thank you.

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by shoreguy
Alright, I'm going to temper this a bit, because I've reread EBF and Julie's posts and found them to be a bit more balanced than I felt after the first reading. I got a little excited there for a minute.

Still, (no offense, but... ) you both sound jaded and bitter, like you've been at this too long and used too many times. Obviously, I don't know the first thing about what it's like to be a single bi swinging female. I'm aware that there are a lot of skeevy single males out there, and that double standards do exist.

But this seems to take the double standard way out to an extreme. This is (almost) a blanket statement condemning all single swinging men to never having an LTR with you. In fact, one result of EBF's opinion on the matter is that single men should hide that fact, get on her good side and then "accidentally" discover that about her. Great foundation there, a big fat lie. Seriously, please don't tell me that there's no chance that you could see past one thing (that you have in common!) for all men. I'd have to put that up there with men who are turned on by female bisexuality (uh, just about all of us), but wouldn't date a woman (or get upset when they find it out about their wife/gf) because "she wouldn't be good enough for me, that dirty slut".

I really don’t know why you would have gotten excited, Shoreguy, after reading the post made early on by Julie or me. They were rather clear, I thought.

I am curious, tho’, how you would determine either of us are “jaded and bitter” You know absolutely nothing about me, my life, my experiences. Be assured…I am probably the most un-jaded and bitter females you will ever come across. I have no reason to be otherwise. And I have most certainly never been used. Nor have I used others. FYI…I have never attended a swingers club, and have no intentions of doing so. I have had very limited experiences in this lifestyle, by choice, and have made that known on numerous occasions and in various threads.

The entire point of my stating that as a single female in this lifestyle, I do not need a man to participate the way I have previously preferred to participate…as a single female involved with another couple…was and remains exactly as stated. I do not need a man to escort or accompany me to a club for any reason. I have no desire to become involved in a foursome. The man would be completely extraneous to me. My comments were not meant as a double standard. They were stated as I see it for myself and as I have seen if from reading various other posts. At no time did I say that single men should “hide” the fact they are swingers “to get on her good side, etc.” And most assuredly, I never stated anything about lying to anyone about anything. What I would do, again FYI, if I found myself involved romantically with a non-swinging man would be to assess that particular relationship to determine if it would be beneficial or detrimental to inform him. I would tell him or not, depending on my assessment. As is true with so many aspects of our lives…those of us past the age of about 15 have histories…some we wish to share and others we wish to remain private. My past, whatever it may be, is just that. My past. I look at it as essentially unimportant to my future with someone.

And finally, although I thought I had made this clear…my very personal opinion is that any couple needs to come into their own as a couple, so to speak, before they consider swinging. Establishing a strong and trusting relationship is difficult enough in the early stages without involving other people, the potentials for emotional involvements, and the sharing of sexuality. And for those reasons alone…I reiterate…if I met a man with whom I established an emotional relationship, I might involve him in the lifestyle with me – where we would be a couple. Otherwise, no…I maintain…I would not “date” a swinger nor participate in the lifestyle with a man just for the mere purpose of participation. I have never been, nor will I be, a “ticket” and I will not put myself in that potential position.

Sorry…I did take great offense. Before you ascribe certain characteristics to me, you may want to get to know me a bit better. I believe you'd find I’m not “jaded or bitter,” nor am I the type to be “used.” – EBF

[StacyCat]

I would have no problem dating a swinger guy. ES, you should get down here :-)

Very little will "discredit" a guy that im dating to the point that I dont want to speak with him again. Most of that has to do with either insulting or hurting me.

I dont assume that any guy is "serious" about me until we have that discussion. Until that point, he doesnt have to answer to me sexually or otherwise, except to assure me that he is playing safely. I probably wouldnt go out swinging with a new boyfriend right away, that doesnt mean that I wouldnt do it.

Im not neccessarily looking for a LTR through swinging, though I wouldnt turn it away if it turned up. In fact, I have a few good friends that I swing with that I wouldnt mind a more emotional relationship.

I would NEVER think of a guy using me to get into a swing club (though I dont usually hit the swing club circut) It would either be known up front that our relationship or friendship was at that point, or he would be dumped soon afterwards.

But, ES, dont give up. There are still good single girls in the swinging circut :-D

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by EternallySingle
Which leads me to my next question: How long would it take a man you knew was also into swinging to convince you that he was interested in you more than swinging and his staying with you had nothing to do with whether or not he would be a welcome member of the lifestyle as half of a couple?

(Sorry, EBF. I did write for a living at one time )

There isn't a simple answer to this, ES. I can't say, one month, 4 months, 6 months...a year +. Like every other relationship, it would have to evolve over time. Haven't you ever had the experience of meeting someone that you instantly liked and felt comfortable with? And others that those same types of feelings were generated over time? On the other hand, you meet some that you might have things in common with, but you know from the onset that it isn't a relationship that will last.

Tho' no direct comparison to dating and/or male/female relationships...my very best friend of many, many years...she and I were that way...we met many years back and actually had very little in common. She was/is married, I'm not. She is 9 years younger than me and back then, at our then ages, that was a significant difference. She later had kids, I didn't. And even to this day, we have few things in common. However, we are probably closer than sisters. The strong relationship we have today evolved over time. On the other hand, years back when I met my husband, I instantly knew that he was the man I was going to marry. In fact, I didn't even know his name, but went home and told my roommate I was getting married as soon as I could find out who he was. Quite literally. I just knew it.

Sometimes you just have to go with the flow and stop looking so hard. Just let things happen as they will with maybe just a little nudge here and there.

And as for the writing, I guess you could say I write for a living, too. Want to try to out-write me? I'll take you on. Of course, you might find yourself reading the same things over and over...just said a million different ways! I can see it now...Julie will ban both of us when we start the War of the Writers Association! - EBF

[athenagirl]

I'm a single woman who is looking to explore swinging in the context of a relationship: in other words, I'd like a long term partner. Recently, I met a wonderful guy on a swinger's site and it looked for a while like he and I were headed somewhere great. (We never did any swinging, but I would have been open to it had the circumstances been right).

The problem is, I developed very strong feelings for him, which he didn't return and now I'm sitting here feeling very broken hearted and discouraged. I realized that I'm not a "friends with benefits" kind of girl: for me, it's either got to be "just friends" (the platonic type) or "just lovers" meaning "just sex." Anything else for me (at least with a guy I really am falling for, is very confusing and ultimately painful).

So, I can see where a woman might just want her "friend" to accompany her to a club to play. And I can also see Julie's point about avoiding men on a swinger's site because she fears that the man might just view her as a ticket.

For me, it comes down to both people being honest with what they want from themselves and each other.

[screaminggood]

The other side that hasn't been addressed is the woman's "attachment" to you. When most people have a new relationship, they are possessive of each other. A woman who knows your a swinger is going to feel awkward saying, "I don't want you flirting with that other woman," much less doing anything else. Jealousy always sounds negative, but in a new relationship it keeps you together in a way. It's becomes more difficult in your situation, and if you haven't dated for very long, she might feel like she can't "restrict you."

[athenagirl]

You asked how long it would take a single woman to be convinced that single swinger guy wasn't just interested in her for anything other than being a ticket? (I believe that is your question, right?)

I think it depends. The guy I met on a swinger's site never hinted at anything other than "vanilla" type activities. For example: rather than suggesting we meet for "coffee or a drink" he made a date for dinner and let me pick the place. I chose a nice place, he met me there and we had a wonderful time. At the end of the date, we went for a walk, he held my hand and then we went for a drive. At the end of the drive, he kissed me for about 30 minutes. Then I got into my car and left. This was the tenor of our relationship: there was never any talk about going to swing clubs or any of that.

I think as long as man acts as though he's sincerely interested in establishing a relationship with the woman first, then and only then, can he broach the subject of swinging.

However, that presumes that all women would be offended by a man who just wanted to hook up for sex and to have a swing partner. I'm sure there are plenty of women who wouldn't mind that at all.

[luvnksstyle]

Congratulations !! You are now a grown up LOL.. It's like watching my 16 year old daughter. When she first got online, she formed fast and strong attachments, only to be broken up weeks later because the guy was halfway around the world. As I look back over my attachments, sexcapades, 9 year marriage with sidesteps with 6 different men... I realize there are no guarantees. People, men , as well as women, who will come into your life. I received a very well put email about those coming into your life. Some will come into your life for a specific reason, such as getting you over a broken heart. Some will be there for a season, as in between long term relationships. And, luckily, a few will be there for a lifetime... maybe not 24/7... but when the chips are down , you know , in your heart , that ...... ya, he'll be that safe place to land .... or.... she will definitely be your soft place to fall ... and after brief visits with these long term friends, you will feel refreshed , revived , and ready for the next challenge that you will be faced with.

As the others have said, Be you!! Follow your dreams and desires!! and at some point , you'll look up .... and it will feel like you are looking in the mirror. For the person you just met, may have travelled a different road, but you will meet that person that completes you , because you both came together , at a similar point and time in your life, where it will feel like you had known her , and loved her, .... and at that moment is like fate or destined for you two to meet.