The hypocrisy of SOME swingers

[Chicup]

While I'll always have to ponder the difference between a single male who likes casual sex is somehow different from a single male 'swinger', I know from my sexual maturation I would have been fine with an MFM with someone elses wife, long before I'd have dreamed of involving my own wife, the label doesn't matter.

Yes people shouldn't be rude, but quite frankly we don't have any descriptions of being rude here. The single male in question here gave no examples, but a typical single male rant about being treated unfairly.

And for the tangent yes single females, rare as they are compared to single males, have even a larger proportion of fruit cakes, and we stopped actively looking for them a LONG time ago because of it.

But the self pity of single males will always fall on deaf ears to many of us, the majority of us, who really want nothing to do with them.

Shit happens, we as a couple have been treated rudely (aka ignored) by couples who obviously didn't want to play with us and I didn't feel the need to make a thread about it. I'm sure if one of us, whoever was the anchor (I'll guess myself) was more attractive to the other half of the couple, they would have been very nice and chatty, aka hypocrites based on the OP because we now had something they were interested in.

[jdavisauto]

As for us when we go to the swingers club as a rule we play in the chair room. Most of the time we leave the door open for single males or couples to come in . This is in no way a invitation to join in but only to watch. She will then choose out of the people in the room who will fucked her. 90% of the time she will choose about 3 or 4 single males. We don’t always play with single males sometimes we want just couples or we don’t want nothing at all. Now single males who are pushy, disrespectful to me or my girlfriend or try to touch my lady without being invited have NO chance at all of playing with her. Also just because she says no now don’t mean that it will be no latter. She has in the past change a no to a yes. You see with us, you the single male are not only wanted but needed at times. And yes we do agree with most of the things you are saying. But not all couples feel that way about single males.

[CPL4XTCY]

1) Us couples often feel if a male can not find a GF/Wife to swing with, then thre is an issue with the single male. If no woman wants you, then there must be a problem.

2) Single males more often than not appear desperate and will fuck anything that lets them. With no standards who knows where your penis has been.

3) Looking for MF/MF play with a little FF thrown in for fun - you don't really fit the type while being single but if you had a feamle wiht you, you become a lot more attractive.

4) Is your wife at home and your out cheating? Swingers are very honest/open people, single guys tend to be not so truthful.


Just a few reasons why single males are typecast.

[jdavisauto]

Originally Posted by CPL4XTCY

1) Us couples often feel if a male can not find a GF/Wife to swing with, then thre is an issue with the single male. If no woman wants you, then there must be a problem.

2) Single males more often than not appear desperate and will fuck anything that lets them. With no standards who knows where your penis has been.

3) Looking for MF/MF play with a little FF thrown in for fun - you don't really fit the type while being single but if you had a feamle wiht you, you become a lot more attractive.

4) Is your wife at home and your out cheating? Swingers are very honest/open people, single guys tend to be not so truthful.


Just a few reasons why single males are typecast.

That damn well hit the nail right on the head and drove it right in. I and Charlene has talked about these very items many times in the past. That's why if we look at the fingers for a ring or a sign of a ring. His eyes to see if he will look at you in your eyes his actions around us. All these comes into play.

[SnowwwWhite]

Originally Posted by Chicup

But the self pity of single males will always fall on deaf ears to many of us, the majority of us, who really want nothing to do with them.

You see, that is a statement that's hard-hitting and direct. And it confirms my assumption about single males... based on A LOT of reading and researching. And yes, personal experience. Chicup, you told it like it is... did you get any nasty emails telling you to quit posting on the forums? I'll bet not.

Interesting how people can lament on the hypocrisy and rudeness of "SOME swingers" and then get rude and accusatory themselves and make things PERSONAL when they come across an opinion they don't like. Talk about hypocrisy.

Sorry, the truth hurts. If my post wasn't relevant and didn't have any foundation, it would have been ignored by the "anonymous person" who sent me the rude email and negative mark. Or maybe there would have been a rebuttal at best, which is typically what I've seen on this board when someone doesn't agree with an opinion. But in my line of work there's a standard truth about people reacting "passionately and negatively" to something they read, see, or hear. They only file complaints or take a negative action when it hits too close to home and exposes something that reflects on their reality. When something doesn't fit with reality and doesn't hit home, people ignore it because they assume everyone else realizes it's off the mark and there's no need to dignify it with a response.

In my industry it's actually a source of pride when someone feels so strongly about something you've written or created that they feel compelled to attack it. So if my posts have the occasional tendency to incite a riot, just realize it's been my entire career to find the truth in a situation and communicate it back to the consumer in a way that will compel them to action. You'd be surprised at who can get offended by the truth. A client of mine once received a "cease and desist" letter from a high-ranking official in the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services demanding that a national campaign I wrote be taken off the air.

That was the most effective campaign our client EVER ran. And no, we didn't pull it off the air. It was just a case of someone not liking the truth being out there and feeling really, really upset about it.

I still have that letter by the way. Not many people in my industry ever get that kind of ultimate validation. When the U.S. government wants you to keep your mouth shut, you KNOW you're doing something right.

So flame away! I've faced off against bigger fish.

[damayor]

Thanks to all those who've replied. I'd especially like to thank Lee and Tribbles who took the time to read what I said and not just take it as a single male attempting to get pity.

As far as the attractive/unattractive argument, was that even part of what I wrote? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...I happen to prefer larger women, I happen to prefer women who have a bit of a geeky side.

But that doesn't stop me, whether as a single or couple, from acting respectful of every new person I meet and welcoming them into the lifestyle (and no, this doesn't mean playing)

Some people replying seem to be under the impression that single guys are solely at a club to fuck. Well, here's a newsflash, there are some single males that "get it". I know that may shock some, but there are some out there that would like to be in the lifestyle with someone special, but just hasn't found that right one, so he chooses to go on his own instead of staying away.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by SnowwwWhite

Based on everything I've read in the forums and on the internet, and based on my experience researching local clubs, it appears that MOST couples and/or clubs are not welcoming of single men. Can't speak for everyone, but there must be a reason so many clubs don't allow them.

Actually, most clubs DO allow them. At best they limit the number of single men to maintain an even ratio so that they don't outnumber the couples (unless that is how they are set up or what is preferred - ie. Thad's or "Hot Wife" night at many clubs - wherein there is no limit to the single guys - because it is assumed that the couples who go there are looking for that). I haven't seen a club in a very long time that did not ALLOW single males at all.

As for the situation of the OP, you are a regular at a club and I'm assuming the issue you post about probably also arises from other regulars at the club. It would be a different issue if it was just that you were there alone last week and some random people ignored you and the next week different random people treating you like a human becuase you had a date. But, that's not the case, as I read it, we are talking about the SAME people treating you like crap one week and like gold the next week. That's not cool. This isn't a single guy issue, it's a respect issue. To me it's no different than if you came one week with an ugly chick and got ignored and came the next week with the hottest babe in the club and had to fight the couples off of you (the same couples both weeks).

I honestly, pay little attention to the single guys at the club we go to because that's not what we are looking for, but if I'm walking past I will smile, or if I'm in line next to I will say hello. I don't ignore them if they talk to me. That said, I just don't pay much attention so if the same single guy showed up the next week with a woman on his arm, I probably would give them more attention without ever realizing that it was the same single guy that I'd seen on the bar the week before. There could be some of this going on with you as well. But, if you are a regular and your complaint is against regulars chances are they've seen you enough to know your face, if they know nothing else about you and to recognize that you are typically a single guy...

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I honestly, pay little attention to the single guys at the club we go to because that's not what we are looking for, but if I'm walking past I will smile, or if I'm in line next to I will say hello. I don't ignore them if they talk to me. That said, I just don't pay much attention so if the same single guy showed up the next week with a woman on his arm, I probably would give them more attention without ever realizing that it was the same single guy that I'd seen on the bar the week before. There could be some of this going on with you as well. But, if you are a regular and your complaint is against regulars chances are they've seen you enough to know your face, if they know nothing else about you and to recognize that you are typically a single guy...

This is what I said as well and since Julie mentioned it also and is a regular club goer with Pet, I've got to assume that this is how it is for many of us couples who aren't seeking single men; we focus our energy on couples when at the club.

damayor, you didn't tell us what exactly it is that's bugging you when you show up at the club by yourself. You've never mentioned people being rude, that's a word others have brought into this thread.

So what is it, are people rude - if so, how so - or are they just not paying the same attention to you when you show up single as compared to as a couple? There is a difference between getting less attention and people being rude.

LM

[damayor]

I can't cite any specific examples of this type of behavior. My original post was a observation over many years of swinging both as a single male and a couple.

I had just not found any board until recently where I can post this and get thoughtful and well written responses.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's opinion.

[Thrax]

I can’t remember ever being treated outright rudely at any of the local clubs I’ve gone to. On limited occasions I’ve gotten the wary look from some single females and couples, but usually people will at least nod, maybe smile, and sometimes start a conversation. I don’t expect every single female and couple to be interested in me, just as I’m not interested in many of them, but I treat them with civility and expect the same in return.

If I would show up at the club with a date I’m sure I might draw more interest. I think that’s natural given that the majority of swingers are swappers. But if someone had treated me rudely when I was at a club as a single male, and then started fawning over me and a date at another time, I would take great internal joy in -- politely and respectfully -- shutting them down.

Thrax

[K&JIntimates]

okay, Here's my two cents....

Damayor, your primary observation is the difference in how couples respond to you when you are with a date in comparison to being single. How they treat you as 'being the bottom of the swinger food chain' when you're alone. I'm going to interpret this as being rude. There is no excuse for rudeness unless the other person just doesn't get it once you've politely declined. (Prior experiences being null, not everyone is going to behave the same solely because of their attachment status.) A lack of attention or perhaps being ignored is another matter. In that case couples are not approaching because, as has been pointed out, they are looking for other couples. It has nothing to do with you personally that they didn't notice you before you had a date.

Personally I like the system at our club, Wed, Thurs, Fri open to everyone. Couples have the opportunity to seek out single males if that is what they desire to do. Saturday is couples only, gives those that are strictly looking for couple and single fems (cause single fems have no restrictions) a night of their own, Sunday is couples and select single males. Seems like that is fair for everyone. You can't control people's behavior, you just have to hope that everyone treats everyone else with respect, couple or no. However, if you're a couple and you don't want to be bothered or 'annoyed' by single males don't go to the club on the nights they will be there. (that's my 2 cents on our local area)

[two42lovers]

Interesting damayor has not said anyone behaved rudely - even when he was asked point blank...

We gotta ask, what hypocrisy?

You are solo, and they are not interested in solos, so they behave as if they are not interested. Then you show up as a couple, and they are interested and let you know it. Why is that hypocritical? You say it's because both halves of the couple want your woman. (lol!) You may want to re-think that (or not - it's all good.)

There are a lot of full swap couples. A lot. Every couple we have played with is a couple -lol- it's actually really common. Just because you are a couple doesn't mean much - if we are going to play it's all about chemistry.

[SnowwwWhite]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

Actually, most clubs DO allow them. At best they limit the number of single men to maintain an even ratio so that they don't outnumber the couples

I have to admit that my experience comes from researching the clubs in my area and all of them explicitly say "no single males." When I RSVP'd for a lingerie night party and asked if I could bring two guys with me, the organizers were very reluctant. After a few days deliberation they eventually said it would be okay since it was my first time and they wanted me to be comfortable. I've also seen numerous references to women being used as "a ticket" to help men get into clubs and parties, and the resentment from couples when single men come with someone who's not a "real" partner. From all of this and many forum comments I've read, it seems to me that most, or at least many couples do not want to deal with single males.

The irony of my original post being hammered is that I actually would LIKE to see single males!!! And me personally I would never be rude or ignore someone I know if I see them in public. My first paragraph was intended to be critical of couples who "don't have the class" to acknowledge someone regardless of whether they approve of them not being with a partner. A couple of people went down pretty hard on me for simply having an opinion about the single male's position (which was based on information from a lot of forums, dating sites, and swinger's club web sites.)

I just saw the situation from a different perspective and merely communicated my surprise that the OP didn't "get" why he was being snubbed.

But all in all this has been a great thread and very enlightening. I just wish certain people would refrain from making things personal when they don't like someone's opinion.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by SnowwwWhite

I've also seen numerous references to women being used as "a ticket" to help men get into clubs and parties,

Even at the clubs where single men are allowed, the use of single females as tickets is still very common for exactly the reason of this original post. By adding a female to the mix a single male becomes a couple and then becomes attractive to a much higher percentage of the population. There are many couples who are open to MFM, however a large percentage of those couples are also interested in couples... so a couple at a club is going to have a better chance of meeting people and being interesting to other couples than a single guy will ever have.

Take numbers (and I'm pulling these out of my ass). But if you are at a club with say 20 single guys and 200 couples. Out of those 100 couples, maybe 50 of them are seriously interested in playing (if you're lucky). Out of those 50, maybe 5 are interested in ONLY single males, with another 10 interested in both couples and single males (depending on what strikes their fancy). So you've got 15 couples that MIGHT be interested in single men, but 20 single men to fill those 15 slots... now let's get real, out of those 20, 5 are going to be guys who actually GET IT and therefore are guys that those 15 might be interested in... so the other 15 guys are going to be fighting for any attention at all.

Couples who want single guys have no trouble finding them at all, whether at a club or elsewhere. As the OP has stated it's not about people being rude to him, it's just that he's noticed a difference in the way that he's treated when he's alone vs when he's there as a couple. From what I gathered from his response, it's not specific actions just the way he feels, which tells me that it's probably not anyone being rude to him, or shoving him aside or even necessarily people going out of their way to ignore him when he's alone but doing quite the opposite when he's there as a couple. As a couple he is more attractive than he is as a single to a higher percentage of the people there (not only does he suddenly become attractive to other couples who are there, but even to other single males that are there). Is it because they all just want the woman he is with? In some cases, perhaps, but in general, I doubt that is the case. The other couples are most likely actually interested in both of them (I know that for us as a couple, we play with other couples where we are BOTH attracted to them - him to the girl and me to the guy, if I'm also attracted to the girl all the better). Just because a couple is not attracted to him ALONE does not mean that he is not attractive just that the couples are not looking for and therefore attracted to single guy.

and the resentment from couples when single men come with someone who's not a "real" partner.

This is also not really a single guy issue, but more an issue of most couples preferring other couples who are in committed relationships because it reduces the possibility of drama they encounter. Add to that that when you are dealing with a "couple" that is not really a couple showing up at a club, you are more likely to have issues with them splitting up and therefore causing other issues. If they show up together, play together and act like a couple, I doubt anyone would notice or care. But, when you show up as a couple then split up and become two singles, you have decieved everyone and it's the beginning of drama.

[SnowwwWhite]

Great post, Julie. Well said!

Just to clarify my thoughts, another poster in this forum insinuated that my original response said it was okay for couples to be rude to single guys and he said something like 'anyone with that attitude doesn't belong in the lifestyle.' I just wanted to clear it up that I don't think it's right for anyone to be rude to anyone... and that I was just surprised that the OP couldn't see why he was being shunned on nights when he was single.

I'm glad you wrote what you wrote because I think it sums things up really well.