As one of the Married Single Men

[Driven2please]

Honestly, I began to sign up, then stopped for some reason, read quite a bit of the forums, then decided to sign up anyways. I guess you could say I belong in the "pariah" group, as a Married "single" guy.
Why even bother to post? I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds. I know that I will be flamed as a cheater. Hold onto your keyboards. I haven't cheated. Maybe in the future, who knows?
Before automatically assuming that a person such as myself is a letcherous jerk, let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct?? What if that Married guy had "permission"? Wouldn't he be the same as the male in a swinging couple? The fact that the wife isn't playing, really isn't germain, so long as he is advertised as a "single" and has permission.

But the guy whos wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community. He is the worst kind of a "cheater".
Yes, I understand there are many men (and women) who pose as Singles. Pose as married with permission. Etc. There are also couples who simply use this venue for "private entertainment". Meaning, that they will set up a meeting, and get cold feet and back out. My thought would be that they had no intentions of ever meeting.
Lets take this one step further, if you are able to open your minds to possible circumstances before acting as judge and jury.
Lets take a happily married man, who enjoys a healthy sex life at home, who yearns to experience the lifestyle for so many years. He doesn't want to leave her for another woman. He doesn't just want to get his rocks off.
If he did, he would be in the bars. Quite successfully, with much less hasslee.
He wants to feel the same exhilerations that he felt when he first met his wife. We wants to replay those same nervous stomache incidents of the exploration of a new partner, but TRULY prefer to do that with his wife again. To further explore flavors other than vanilla. To be part of a MFM or a FMF. The very fantasies that led most of you here. And she wants no part of it, regardless of the angles of persuation. The woman you dearly love, wants no part of fulfilling fantasies you have had for so many years. She can not get past the "heavy hand of religuous dominance" that says this is wrong.
You couples that indulge, are truly fortunate. Able to ward off jealousy, and be confident enough in your relationship that you can allow each other to enjoy the company of another "lover". Its not all about the sex, IMO. The relationships, the sexual tensions, the anticipation buildup...... It must be a powerful drug. I envy you.

This isn't posted as a whine-fest. Its more of a plea to ask you to look further than whats directly infront of you. Its to ask you to realize that even married men want the very same things that YOU did, when you came here.

Surrender I surrender, but flame if you must..

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

This isn't posted as a whine-fest.

Sometimes we hit the bull's eye that we aren't aiming for

The problem with your "logic" is this: Swinging couples play within the boundaries of BOTH partners. Married men who decide to swing solo, even though their wife won't for whatever reason (oppressive religious ideas are certainly a common culprit) are NOT treating their wives with the same respect.

They are crossing the established boundaries of their marriage.

It is cheating. Having different partners does not make it cheating - it's the lying and deceit that does.

I honestly do feel sorry for anyone who is "unequally yoked." But the truth is, you really have two options - one is to do the honorable thing and respect the boundaries of you marriage (or be honest and tell your wife that you are going to swing and let the chips fall where they may). The other option is dishonorable - and that is to lie to your wife, the couples you play with and yourself (when you tell yourself that no one is getting hurt).

No one can tell you which path to choose. But then again - none of us have to live with the consequences.

Spoomonkey

[tribbles]

It's the 'space' and emotional distance that cheating, gambling or anything else not okay with a spouse that is what is wrong with 'cheating' IMO.

The lie prevents a couple from being close.

Now, if you wife is ok with you going out on your own.....and understands the risks of you playing alone...

Would you really want your wife to spend your life savings without talking to you? Why not? She wants the thrill


Are you willing to risk her LIFE to play? How about a lifetime of herpes?

I hope not. At least not without her permission anymore than you want her to go gamble your savings away without your permission.

While there are few STD's they DO still exsist.

Think it over and see how you could proceed that keeps you both safe and happy for life.

S

[EvilMJ]

I started off with a really nasty response but then I decided not to be so harsh.

You raised my hackles by 'trying to enlighten the closed minded'. I would say we are a very open minded bunch. But we don't support cheating in any manner. When we swing it is for the the enjoyement of both partners as a couple.Cheating is having sex with another person without the knowledge of your spouce.

Honestly it is up to you, you can hurt the woman you proclaim to love by following your own selfish agenda, or you can treat her with love and respect. Sorry but you are not going to find to many people to support you in this one. - Married men or women playing with out the knowledge of their spouces are cheaters regardless of what ever feeble arguements or circumstances they put forward.

[MoonLightKiss]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds.

Well, like EvilMJ this statement raised my blood pressure. Like her as well I will try not to be so harsh addressing this. Maybe you see it as closed minds. I respectfully disagree. What I have noticed above all in this forum is the ability for others to be honest. Those that I respect here do not hold back their honest opinions. They call a cat a cat, a dog a dog, and a cheater a cheater. Nor do they people please and change their answers when someone disagrees. Anyone on here worth their salt sticks to their guns and opinions, and they have a strong sense of right, wrong, and negotiable. Not everyone agrees, but most here agree to disagree with respect to everyone. So, just because its not the answer you believe, doesn't make those here closeminded.

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Before automatically assuming that a person such as myself is a letcherous jerk, let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct?? What if that Married guy had "permission"? Wouldn't he be the same as the male in a swinging couple? The fact that the wife isn't playing, really isn't germain, so long as he is advertised as a "single" and has permission.

Cheating is 50% lies and 50% lack of permission. No exceptions for me. If you are lying and do not have permission, its cheating. If you have honesty but not permission, its cheating. If you have permission, but you lie about it to your SO its cheating. Cheating=wrong to most here. Sorry, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but most of us here are here to help and you can't help anyone with a lie.

Originally Posted by Driven2please

But the guy whos wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community. He is the worst kind of a "cheater".

I don't think there is one kind of cheater that is worse than another. I do not believe in discrimination. I dislike all cheaters, regardless of reasons, equally.

HOWEVER, I will state this. If you are in a marraige where lack of sex is an issue, I do understand why you would consider an alternative. Doesn't make it right in my book, but I do understand it. My opinion on being in a sexless marraige is to fix it. Many ways to do it. Talk to your SO and tell her this is a problem for you. That would be my advice on how to start. However, in no way am I condoning lying to her about it. Its the lies that make it wrong.

Originally Posted by Driven2please

You couples that indulge, are truly fortunate. Able to ward off jealousy, and be confident enough in your relationship that you can allow each other to enjoy the company of another "lover". Its not all about the sex, IMO.

On this we agree. We are truly fortunate to not be held back by petty destructive emotions like jealousy. I do wish you the best, and plead with you to be honest with your SO. It truly would be best IMHO.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

This isn't posted as a whine-fest. Its more of a plea to ask you to look further than whats directly infront of you. Its to ask you to realize that even married men want the very same things that YOU did, when you came here.

Thats great but you still can't fuck my wife

[rpu3]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

This isn't posted as a whine-fest. Its more of a plea to ask you to look further than whats directly infront of you. Its to ask you to realize that even married men want the very same things that YOU did, when you came here.

Surrender I surrender, but flame if you must..

Wow, you must be friends with someone we considered meeting for a MFM. We had corresponded with him a few times, and had a few red flags thrown out, and he just admitted yesterday in an email he was in a committed relationship (although his Yahoo! profile says married with children).

For some reason - we were given the same plea in that email - to consider HIS position and what he'd like. This is really starting to piss me off. Why do we need to consider your position? I've already considered it - you are cheating or are considering cheating.

Why don't you, and those like you, consider our position (speaking only for myself and my husband): We are not interested in engaging in activities with a married man who does not have verifiable permission. We are not going to engage in any form of deception - and certainly aren't going to help you do it. We are not going to intentionally or unintentionally hurt another person (the wife) if we can help it.

Considering we do this with full honesty and disclosure with each other, we are not going to engage in any activity with someone who is not playing by the same rules. I do not need to consider your position any further because you are not in the same position as us. We are not cheating - we are both there, with full consent of the other, and hurt no one. You, and your type, on the other hand, are proceeding with deception as your calling card. Trying to define us as cheaters along with you is just offensive.

As to your plea for our realization of your position - no, thanks. Perhaps I am being a bit pissy, but in this week alone, we have found that three men that we had been corresponding with, were married. And I've had it up to here with being asked to please consider their positions. The only good thing is that we are finding this out before it goes any further than email, thanks to the sage advice of those on this board.

[fun4Ds]

i cant help but think that you are wanting what you cant have and im shure that sucks. i went through that myself for a long time it sucked for me as well. knowing what the lifestyle is about. a loving relationship with true honesty and an understanding with your partner that can't be found in the vannila world. when i found the lifestyle (or maby it found me) it wasn't just the sex that i was missing or lacking and wanting more of. it was the whole lifestyle.
i mean if i am with the love of my life and i have these feelings, but i kept them hidden deep in myself, its not very fair or honest to the person that im married too(is it?). to not know who i am. or how i feel.

you seem in your post to try to find a way to validate cheating, because your not getting the sex you want. and your using your wifes religion as an excuse

plain and simple if you want to play at the fun house and have that mfm with us, we would have to talk with your WIFE first. we would want to know her,know her feelings,would it hurt her? would it destroy your marrige for her? would she feel jelous? would she be letting you fufill your sexual desires because she loves you? and would continue to love you, even though her religious convictions prevent her from joining in? and we certainly would want to talk to her after the fun.

seriously, that is our perspective of things as a swinging couple. we cant see you as a married single.

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

I have written 3 longass essay answers here and deleted everyone of them. For the time being I will keep it short

Originally Posted by Driven2Please

Lets take a happily married man, who enjoys a healthy sex life at home, who yearns to experience the lifestyle for so many years. He doesn't want to leave her for another woman. He doesn't just want to get his rocks off.
If he did, he would be in the bars. Quite successfully, with much less hasslee.
He wants to feel the same exhilerations that he felt when he first met his wife. We wants to replay those same nervous stomache incidents of the exploration of a new partner, but TRULY prefer to do that with his wife again. To further explore flavors other than vanilla. To be part of a MFM or a FMF. The very fantasies that led most of you here. And she wants no part of it, regardless of the angles of persuation. The woman you dearly love, wants no part of fulfilling fantasies you have had for so many years. She can not get past the "heavy hand of religuous dominance" that says this is wrong.

If you can't do this with your wife, in the privacy of your own bedroom using her fantasties, new techniques, introducing (new?)toys, role playing, variations on old themes, romance turned kinky, whatever. Then I suggest the nature of your problem is communication. Fix that (for starters) and the butterflies will return !

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

But the guy whos wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community.

Yea...that's pretty much true here. Couples who openly permit their partners to have sex with other people are already operating "very close to the edge," so to speak. Hence, they don't tolerate infidelity, or any behavior which smacks of infidelity (emotional or otherwise), very well.

You also lose points among people who have been in stale, unsatisfying, or abusive marriages and were finally forced to leave them. Which is to say, most of us. Like many others in here, I have been where you are now. I paid dearly, both financially and emotionally, for the happiness I now enjoy as a single person. Fixing a marriage is tough, leaving one even tougher. But ultimately, I think society as a whole has more respect for somebody who does that, than for somebody who wallows in self-pity for the "sacrifices" they've made to stay in a bad marriage.

I'm just curious as to why in your profile you list yourself as a "happily married guy?" You sure don't sound very happy to me...

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds.

Time to "throw another troll on the barbie?"

What makes you think, my dear, that many of us haven't been precisely where you are? The difference is that there was a realization that just because we wanted something, didn't mean we could just take it. It's like a kid whining that he wants the toy, wants the toy, wants the toy. Mom says "ABsolutely not!" So the kids steals it. And you're asking us to "open our minds" to the possibility that maybe the kid had his reasons. Yeah. She said no. He took it anyway. You haven't cheated yet, but you do wrong by your wife for even considering it. It's in your heart, and that's where the wrongness of it lies. Not in whether or not you've put your penis is someone else's orifice.

You know, I have no doubt that you're nice enough guy, a real charmer. And if that helps you sleep better at night, then goodie for you. But I've noticed that every cheating wanna-be-single married person who comes here pleading their case mentions this fact at least once in their story. Who are they trying to convince? Politeness and niceness and ability to make good conversation...maybe helping little old ladies across the street...doesn't make up for the fact that I don't like people who - whatever their excuse may be!! - sell cheaply that which someone holds dear, so that they can get something they simply want. Not NEED. WANT.

And then they try to convince themselves AND everyone who would listen (and we swingers should understand, because, by their definition of the word, we are all cheaters too, no?) that we are unfairly judgmental because we refuse to condone the behaviour. This pisses me off. Your post is an exercise in self-validation, and you're looking for others to make you feel better about yourself. You will deny this now, but I dare you to come back a year from now, after you've torn your wife's heart out when she's found out that you deceived her, and deny it.

You won't like my post very much, I'm sure. I truly am sorry that you feel the way you do. As a rule, I don't dislike the person; I just dislike what they do. And when someone does wrong, acknowledges it, and does whatever is necessary to make things right, it's easy to do this. The problem arises when a person allows the problem to become a part of who they are.

[Chicup]

You know, sometimes when first reading a thread I ignore 'Captain Obvious' trying to tell me something basic.

Well Captain obvious has spoken to me and I finally heard what he had to say, and what he told me is that guys like the OP really don't understand swinging.

Now you all said 'well yea' and you are correct but let me get a bit deeper.

What they don't understand is that for most of us at least, swinging is not why we are happy in our marriages. His wife doesn't want to swing, and thats fine, shes by no means alone. This makes him feel trapped and unhappy as he would really like to try swinging and she says no. He wants to feel the butterflies of a new partner again. He is bored. Thats fine and dandy, but if 6 or 7 years ago when we started talking about our fantasies, if Mrs. Chicup said 'no' I'd still be happily married to Mrs. Chicup. I'd not be here wanting to fill some empty part of my soul, in fact I'd have forgotten this board exsisted (much like I've forgotten what my original log on name was back then). We have taken breaks from swinging, and I didn't feel any yearnings that would have led me to cheat on her. Am I lucky we are both of the same mind in swinging? Yes very much so, but I'm also lucky she likes the same baseball team, and lucky she puts up with my bad habbits. Swinging has been great for us, but it is not who we are, its a hobby, and I'd never want to feel the guilt of cheating for something thats just a hobby.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Chicup

What they don't understand is that for most of us at least, swinging is not why we are happy in our marriages.

Dito

The are people outside the lifestyle that don't get this...

There are people INSIDE the lifestyle that don't get this...

And there are clouds of people who don't get this who are buzzing around the lifestyle like mosquitos on an otherwise perfect evening...

Our marriage was happy before swinging, it is happy in the midst of swinging and it will perfectly happy when swinging is over. It is not the "glue that keeps us together".

Spoomonkey

[Amanda69]

let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct??

Incorrect....it is as pointed out before the act of lying and deceit. In the lifestyle we share our partners sexually by consent and to the enhancement of our committed and open relationship.

If your marriage isn't giving you what you want then either fix it, leave or put up with it but don't give us a whine about how you would like to be part of the lifestyle...in your current situation you aren't and you won't be.

If you want to cheat then there are many websites devoted to this, the most popular of which is Ashley Madison .....

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Another drive by posting by Infidelity, Inc......... cant log back in becuase he may get caught