As one of the Married Single Men

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Okay - it took me a little digging, but I didn't want to start a poll that had already been done. As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

Spoomonkey

Those same polls say we straight males in the minority too Spoo. I think our polls suffer from a 'lurker' factor. We can read into it what we want, but a majority of couples we have run into over the years do not play with single males. If those numbers were true I think we would see a lot more happy single males in the lifestyle

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by JnCC

My totally, "Just-my-opinion, Pulled-straight-from-my-Ass" estimate...

Well - at least we know the quality of the turf...



Your example not withstanding, there are plenty of couples who play with single males. We tend to do whatever we are in the mood for at the time. Statistical gymnastics aside, single men are a part of the lifestyle - and so are the couples who play with them.

We could run the poll again and I would bet that the "couples only" couples would still be in the minority. It may give some folks an inch of wood to kick around singles any time they get a chance, but let's be fair and honest about what "most" couples in the lifestyle are open to.

Spoomonkey

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Chicup

I think our polls suffer from a 'lurker' factor. We can read into it what we want, but a majority of couples we have run into over the years do not play with single males. If those numbers were true I think we would see a lot more happy single males in the lifestyle

If 53% of the couples listed on adult websites were truly looking for single male FB's, I'd pull my profile from Match.com and post one on AFF or SN in a heartbeat.

What I'd save on drinks and dinners in one month would pay for the ad...

[Thrax]

Polls? Garbage In, Garbage Out.

I do NOT represent myself as a seasoned pollster. However, two of my previous jobs required me to design surveys of businesses and customers -- taking into account the mathematics that give you data that allows statisticians to figure within a reasonable doubt what the real probabilities are -- to ascertain what certain folks thought about certain issues. So, I learned a little about how big a sample interview population size should be to get reasonably accurate results, how to design a survey that was as unbiased as possible, and how to interpret the results (as well as how much of a margin of error should be ascribed to a specific survey). Well, I've forgotten the specifics, so sue me.

Anyway, Internet surveys or polls are pretty much poop (to use the technical term). Internet surveys rarely represent the broad spectrum of possible respondents and therefore usually don't provide the data needed to gauge the opinions of true population samples. Internet polls most commonly ask folks to respond, but don't seek a true total and/or representative population to make sure ALL parties are polled thus making the gathered data representative of the ENTIRE POPULATION.

It's a control issue. Contol gives you better data.

It's like those "measure-your-penis" polls. Which would you trust more? The data gathered from random Internet respondents who found your survey and decided to measure themselves and provide measurements without any corraboration? Or would you trust the poll that sought out men representative of all ethnic and age groups in the general population and had a group measuring penises to specific standards? So, of these two types of penis-measurement surveys, which do you think is the most commonly prevalent and of course often cited? Yeah, the non-scientific one, 'cause it's easier to do.

So, anyway, Internet polls are extremely suspect, often because of the limited universe (potential respondents) who can VIEW the survey, and DO respond. Spoo, for all we know, most of the couples that don't like to involve single men did not bother to respond to that Board survey you cited, but there is no way of us checking that.

Anyway, another glass of pinot grigio is calling...after too many glasses already, obviously.

Questions?

Thrax

[JnCC]

No questions...you covered that quite well, Thrax. Thanks!

There's one other thing that makes me question the "Most couples play with single males" hypothesis, and that is the fact that single males are not permitted at any of the National conventions. You'd think that if a significant number of couples were interested in SM's, there would be at least a few permitted at those events, perhaps in a certain area or floor of the hotel. As it is, there are none...they're couples only

The financial incentive to the organization hosting the convention for allowing single males would be tremendous. Assuming the normal differential in door fees were applied, a single male would pay between $1,000 and $1,500 to attend a 3-day event. I think you could easily find 50 to 100 guys who would pay that just for the privilege of running around with their dicks hanging out, hounding couples for 3 days straight.

I don't see NASCA jumping on board for any of that potential 50-150 grand.

If and when couples start looking for single males in any significant numbers, you'll see clubs drop the door fees for SM's and advertise prominently the fact that they're welcomed to the club, not "hidden in the small print" as is now so often the case..

[good times]

I think I have a little different take on this whole single male and who wants them thing. My thinking regarding the poll that Spoomonkey cited is that it is fairly representitive of our experience of the people we know in the lifestyle, but it also gives a false indication of how many single males are needed or desired. The reason for this is that I know a quite a few couples that play with single males once in a while, or would consider one if they met the right one, but they primarily play with couples. So, even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by good times

...even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

I agree with your numbers. In fact, your percentages are about what I've observed at a swing clubs that allow single males. Of course, what we don't know is how many couples won't go to a club or party in the first place if they know that single males will be there. That's the number that's kind of hard to pin down, but I suspect that given a choice between a "couples only" private party and one which permits SM's, couples will gravitate to the "couples only" party by a large margin. Thus, the "price" that the lifestyle pays for the success of those 5-10% of single males is the disenfranchisement of a large segment of it's couples population.

[good times]

I don't know if it is a large percentage of the swinging population JNCC, because, as you say, it is hard to pin down, but it is true that some won't go to a club if single males are allowed. Fact is, all things being equal, my wife and I prefer couples only clubs. However, with us at least, clubs aren't always equal, so right now our favorite club allows single males. But we like it better because it is a nicer club and has better amenities, dispite the fact that they allow single males. I'll have to admit, the one club of three in our town that has a couples only night is probably still in business because it has a couples only night, as that night is their most popular night by a large margin.

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible.

My husband and I both come from very strict Catholic households. We've obviously overcame a lot to start swinging. You're right about introducing new things, but it's obviously not impossible.

Originally Posted by Driven2please

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

Ditto what Intuition said.

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys.

I didn't protest it. In fact, it's worked with my friend and his wife for years. But, what I would protest is the fact that some husbands -- sneaky rat bastards that they can be -- would pay a female friend to either pose as their wife to either meet the other couple in person or phone conversation. (Sorry, I work in the Correctional System, and I'm thinking with the criminal mind. ) I'm not saying you would do it, but I do think that there are some men out there yellow enough to do it.

Playing with a male who has "permission" just wouldn't be in the cards for us. We agree with what Spoo said. It probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by good times

I think I have a little different take on this whole single male and who wants them thing. My thinking regarding the poll that Spoomonkey cited is that it is fairly representitive of our experience of the people we know in the lifestyle, but it also gives a false indication of how many single males are needed or desired. The reason for this is that I know a quite a few couples that play with single males once in a while, or would consider one if they met the right one, but they primarily play with couples. So, even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

I would say your interpretation is correct. Hell I could invision a circumstance we would play with a single male, but it would require the proper alignment of the stars and another White Sox world series win.

Also we don't go to clubs that allow single males, but we will go to off sight events that will. Dealing with the creepy couples is bad enough. Now if a club had a real selection process for single males, then it would be different.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

The problem with your "logic" is this: Swinging couples play within the boundaries of BOTH partners. Married men who decide to swing solo, even though their wife won't for whatever reason (oppressive religious ideas are certainly a common culprit) are NOT treating their wives with the same respect.

They are crossing the established boundaries of their marriage.

Originally Posted by intuition897

What makes you think, my dear, that many of us haven't been precisely where you are? The difference is that there was a realization that just because we wanted something, didn't mean we could just take it. It's like a kid whining that he wants the toy, wants the toy, wants the toy. Mom says "ABsolutely not!" So the kids steals it. And you're asking us to "open our minds" to the possibility that maybe the kid had his reasons. Yeah. She said no. He took it anyway. You haven't cheated yet, but you do wrong by your wife for even considering it. It's in your heart, and that's where the wrongness of it lies. Not in whether or not you've put your penis is someone else's orifice.

...

And then they try to convince themselves AND everyone who would listen (and we swingers should understand, because, by their definition of the word, we are all cheaters too, no?) that we are unfairly judgmental because we refuse to condone the behaviour. This pisses me off. Your post is an exercise in self-validation, and you're looking for others to make you feel better about yourself. You will deny this now, but I dare you to come back a year from now, after you've torn your wife's heart out when she's found out that you deceived her, and deny it.

You won't like my post very much, I'm sure. I truly am sorry that you feel the way you do. As a rule, I don't dislike the person; I just dislike what they do. And when someone does wrong, acknowledges it, and does whatever is necessary to make things right, it's easy to do this. The problem arises when a person allows the problem to become a part of who they are.

I'd try to put up those posts togheter to expose another aspect of swinging that you don't seem to understand.

As opposed as what you may suppose, swinging is an activity that require way more strict rules to be followed than the ones a vanilla couple have (which include the "no sex with others" rule).

To be able to develop those rules FIRST, and to be confident that both will be able, willing, and up to stick to those rules it is required a long communication proccess leading to the understanding of each one desires and fears, at last, this require a commitment with the honesty.

You're watching the problem towards your own bellybutton, and (perhaps because you didn't dare to engage in a process like this with your wife), you didn't realize about what happens TO the couple when facing people who want to play using your arguments.

The first problem is, as Intuition said, that they are unaware of the meaning and purpose for those rules.They're not up to follow the rules they state inside their own marriage to protect what they claim it is the most sacred they have, so we may suspect, reasonabily, that at any point in the middle of the game they wont stick to our rules, perhaps because he just didn't understood it even when he said he did (perhaps because it was a requisite to "socre").

The second, and more important problem is, should this couple agree about the validity of your arguments, they'd be challenging all the honesty conception required for them to be able to swing, and the grounds for the entire process they engaged into as to be able to swing. This alone could be way more damaging than any odd outcome from the game itself, and it would bring up in the privacy of their home.

So, the problem isn't just about married guys playing as singles, but more about the couple daring to play with them after accepting these arguments that contradicts the ones required to be able to swing without tearing the marriage appart, thus, undermining their marriage just from proposing them to be re-evaluated.

I guess it is because of this that we trend to be so harsh on people posting those sorts of arguments. We're compelled to stand for the principles allowing us to preserve our marriages while swinging (and even if not swinging) as a way to deffend ourselves from this challenge.

So, you may convince some distracted couple to slip in their bed by means of those arguments, and it is likely that once you leave the bed, you'd leave behind a bomb ticking that could blow in their face.

And again, this is just another face from the lack of awareness about the need to have rules and stick to it, if not for you, FOR THAT MARRIAGE. And again, if you may choose to fulfill your sexual fantasies at the price of risking to hurt your wife, why wouldn't you at the risk of hurting those unknown couples you wouldn't meet anymore after having your pie?

So, I hope this to let you foresight why we do believe a playmate like yourself is too dangerous for us as to dare to play with.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by JnCC

I agree with your numbers.

So...

What we are saying is 50%?

Hell - that is half of the couples even by the numbers agreed upon by the "couples only" folks. It would appear that a single male would have much better luck at a swing event than at a Porsche Party.

Are singles our "preferred" mode of transportation? Heck no - not by a long shot. And as I have said before, out of all the singles we have played with only one was any good. Add on top of that the fact that we do tend to have excellent luck and experiences with couples. In our world, singles do have the deck stacked squarely against them.

My point is - as we can see by the number you guys agreed on - is that the couples who will consider a single male are not the exception.

Spoomonkey

[EvilMJ]

Just to touch on the married with permisson subject. It really depends on the couple. We have friends that I play with, they have a poly type relationship with another couple and all live together. The husband of one couple and the wife of the other play as a couple, because their other halves really aren't intersted in swinging with other people outside of their foursome any more. They however have no problem with their spouces playing, as long as they are with people in a group that they have met and approved.

I have met and gotten to know all four of them and we are all friends, I also have persmisson to play with the husband of one couple either as part of a threesome or alone. (generally at a dance or the club). It works but only because I know them all.

I would never take someone's word for it, I would have to meet the wife, get to know her and find out the full story. I think there are too many married men out there right now who play with 'the permisson of their wife' but in reality are cheating and she knows nothing about it.

[Alura]

Spoomonkey wrote:

It would appear that a single male would have much better luck at a swing event than at a Porsche Party.

I have no doubt this is true, Spoo! I'd say, in fact, that a single male would have a 99% better chance of fucking somebody's wife at a swing club than driving someone else's car at an Autocross. It makes me wonder why some of us are more daring with our wives than our cars, especially if we have a "one out of ???" success rate.

Of course, at an Autocross, a car-less person would know better than to ask. Perhaps that's the difference.

Mr. Alura

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

My point is - as we can see by the number you guys agreed on - is that the couples who will consider a single male are not the exception.

Spoomonkey

The key word is consider. Its not that they would be 100% out, just that they would be 99.5% out.