As one of the Married Single Men

[Alura]

Morality aside, Driven2please, one major reason married cheaters have a tough time finding playmates is simply that we don't need you.

Most of us play with couples. We have more in common with them, take the same risks, are able to do anything we can do with a single (and more), and do not have to subject ourselves to the drama that inevitably comes from cheating.

Few married couples swing; fewer yet swing with singles. There may be an extreme few who are willing to take the risks of playing with a married/single honest cheater, but they must be desperate indeed. You might even want to consider eschewing such a couple yourself, for the sake of your own safety!

Finally, if you want to compete in our Porsche Club's autocross event, drive your own Porsche there. Don't take a taxi to the track and ask me to allow you to drive my car because you are a better driver than I am and you can't drive your car because you crashed it into the wall. I'll either drive my car myself or swap with another driver just for variety.

Mr. Alura

[LFM2]

I'm glad you got all that off your chest. As you can see, I haven't been here all that long, but those that read my posts will know how opinionated I really can be.

I've known an older couple for a few years who used to swing. They don't anymore because of health issues, but the male of the couple still does. They've set ground rules, and since he is very much bi-sexual, he only plays with bi-sexual or gay men. His wife has gladly given her permission for him to play with these men. Does that make him a cheater? Not in any way shape or form. He's got her permission, and he is honest about what goes on when he goes out.

What still irks me is when posters, such as yourself, equate cheaters and swingers in the same post. We do not cheat. My husband is right there with me. If he had brought up the idea of swinging and I wasn't receptive, we would still be happy. We've been extremely happy together for two decades, so why would one of us not wanting to swing make the other one stray? We wouldn't. I think we've got integrity. You know what integrity is don't you? Integrity is doing the right thing even if there is no chance that you would be caught doing the wrong thing.

[Driven2please]

OK, I think I am throughly toasted... Surrender Can someone pass the Aloe?

Just to clear alot of misconception..
My wife and I get along famously. We do everything together, including work together. We have had 4 arguements in 24 years of being together, so the communication arguement should be considered nil. Our sex is pretty good. Neither leaves the bed unfulfilled, in the physical sense. Mentally, I would like a bit more. Although she is satisfied.
Do we have a tough time when it comes to "Special Events"? Yes. Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible. We do talk about it. You may liken it to a person scared of heights to try a rollercoaster. For some things come easy. For others, seemily easy tasks can be arduous.

I think many had misinterpretted the thrust of my original post. And thats the only reason I responded in the first place.

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys. YES, THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO ME. I KNOW THAT. But , if the married with permission gets blown away what sense is there in even broaching the subject with the wife, and risk her emotional distress.

Only a few posters cared to take enough time to read my post before donning the flame suit and go troll hunting. For those few that did, I appreciate it. Thank you. I truly mean it.
One (Alura)apears to have hit it on the head. Men are in an overabundance in this lifestyle, so you can be picky. I guess that says it all.

I wish you all the best, in every facet of your lives.

[Driven2please]

I guess I still didn't get my main point across, after re-reading it.

I am not calling swingers cheaters, by any means. I meant no reference to such.

I just don't see the difference in a "married with permission" and a single, or a married with swing partner. I should even preface that with "married with Verifiable permission". Although there is definatly a stigma to any male without a partner here.

But the fact still remains..too many men, too few women..

sorry to waste your time.

(Still envious, though!)

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Just to clear alot of misconception..
My wife and I get along famously. We do everything together, including work together. We have had 4 arguements in 24 years of being together, so the communication arguement should be considered nil.

Just because you dont argue does not mean you communicate successfuly !

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible.

This sounds so resentful of her upbringing.

As a couple who can successfuly communicate, you would understand where she is coming from and look to new ways that are less invasive of her beliefs and more gratifying for you. Likewise if she understood the core of what you desire, she would look to new variations as well. Fact is that you elude to neither and give the picture you have given up and outright state you may one day cheat.

That is (as I see it) why you got blasted here. Had you asked for help the responses would have been totally opposite

[Alura]

Driven2Please wrote:

One (Alura)apears to have hit it on the head. Men are in an overabundance in this lifestyle, so you can be picky. I guess that says it all.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Driven2please.

Actually, an overabundance of males has little to do with our not playing with single or single/married males. Even if unaccompanied males were rare as single females, we'd still not need them. We only play with couples, and it's Mrs. Alura's decision, not mine... although I agree completely with her.

While most swingers have the same rule we do, there are a few exceptions. Some single (and, I'm sure, single/married) men manage to hook up with them. That's okay with us. Just don't tell us we're bigots because we don't choose to.

I've never known of a driver showing up at a Porsche Club event in a taxi, asking to drive one of the members' cars because he couldn't drive his own. I think he'd know the answer before he asked.

Mr. Alura

[rpu3]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

I just don't see the difference in a "married with permission" and a single, or a married with swing partner. I should even preface that with "married with Verifiable permission". Although there is definatly a stigma to any male without a partner here.

Single - no other person being deceived, hurt, etc. All are there honestly.

Married w/Permission: I have seen this with well established couples -wife's pregnant, taking a break, etc. Again, no one is being deceived or hurt, all are there under honest conditions.

Married w/swing partner - I'm not sure what you are getting at there - if it's a married individual without his wife, and his wife has not stated she is fine with this, then therein lies the difference. If it is an unmarried w/a swing friend, etc., it's a different situation.

It's the honesty that's at issue. We (personally, not globally) are not going to engage in activity directly or indirectly in which someone (the wife) is being deceived. Therein lies the difference to us - one situation is honest - the other is deceitful.

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible. We do talk about it. You may liken it to a person scared of heights to try a rollercoaster. For some things come easy. For others, seemily easy tasks can be arduous.

Just an observation;

My ex- also came fom one of those "rigid Catholic backgrounds" that you mention. However, in the context of the lifestyle, she tended to be "The Hottie" and I tended to be "The control." I think that coming from a highly restrictive moral and/or religious background creates a natural rebellion in many people, especially around mid-life (40-55). If you're able to tap into any lingering curiousity your wife has about "what she missed" while she was at Catechism, you could be in for the ride of your life.

[Amanda69]

Curious how exactly will you be able to "prove" to another couple that you have permission

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Alura

While most swingers have the same rule we do, there are a few exceptions.

Okay - it took me a little digging, but I didn't want to start a poll that had already been done. As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

Spoomonkey

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Driven2please

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys. YES, THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO ME. I KNOW THAT. But , if the married with permission gets blown away what sense is there in even broaching the subject with the wife, and risk her emotional distress.

There's informed consent (verifiable permission, where one spouse has full knowledge, and gives his or her enthusiastic and loving consent. This spouse wants to know who his/her spouse's playmates are.), and UN-informed consent, where one spouse consents to allowing his/her spouse have sex with other people...but he/she doesn't like it, or doesn't want to know the details. This is simply cheating out in the open. In truth, his/her consent merely exists as a feel-good measure for the cheating spouse, so that she/he can tell her/himself that this is an honest arrangement. Trouble is, it's not an honest arrangement, because one person is not actually happy with it. They're just putting up with it. Nor does this person have any true veto power; if the unwilling partner denied her spouse this freedom, she knows he would just take it without telling her about it...or pout and carry on until she finally gave in. Her only other choice is to leave.

What sense is there in telling her? I guess that depends on how high a priority you think honesty is in your relationship. You're talking to people who place it at the very top of their list. Our feeling is that if a relationship must employ dishonesty to exist, it should not exist at all. No exceptions. And that includes 20+ year marriages of couples who, otherwise, get along great.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Amanda69

Curious how exactly will you be able to "prove" to another couple that you have permission

The couple asks to speak personally with the solo-playing person's spouse/partner to find out if she's truly consenting, or just being dragged into it. If the solo person refuses, it's a pretty sure bet that his/her partner is NOT agreeable to the arrangement.

[Amanda69]

Okay but the actual results read as follows:

Do you Swing With Single Males?
Yes, we swing EXCLUSIVELY with single males 14 9.09%
No, we have no desire to swing with single males 35 22.73%
We don't currently, but we have considered/ are considering adding them 38 24.68%
Yes, we swing with single males as well as couples 67 43.51%


So 47 % have not swung with single males, though 23 % but may have considered it and 53 % have swung with single males but only 9% of those have done so exclusively.

I wonder how many would say they would swing with a married male who says he has permission to swing

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Amanda69

I wonder how many would say they would swing with a married male who says he has permission to swing

We wouldn't. The "extra step" of talking to the wife seems like more trouble than it is worth.

Spoomonkey

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

I don't know...I think that poll, while "technically" correct, could be a little misleading. For example, had I been asked in 2002 if we "had ever considered adding a single male" I would have answered "yes." But that was a one-time situation...a confluence of alcohol, horniness (on her part), sexual exhaustion (on my part), and an attractive and interesting gentleman/drinking companion in a Key West bar.

One time, in 7 years. And we never even made it back to our room. While our experience would certainly skew the poll in favor of "couples who have considered single men," as a practical matter it would have no bearing on the actual number of couples who play with single guys, or the number of single guys who might hope to get lucky in the lifestyle. And I can absolutely, positively guaran-damn-tee you that had an equally attractive interesting couple been sitting next to me at the bar, the single gentleman would have remained just that...single...at the end of the evening, for the very reasons that Alura has alluded to.

Another situation...

The husband of one of our lifestyle-friends gave his wife what amounted to a one-time, weekend pass to seduce a male colleague at an annual convention. (The gentleman was married, but lived in another part of the country) Within the lifestyle, this couple were adamantly against single males. Had they answered the poll, they might have answered that they "swung with single males as well as couples," but as a practical matter, nuh-huh...they were strictly a "couples-only" couple.

(One might also conclude from that that if a guy is attractive enough to a woman in the lifestyle and there's little chance of getting caught, it doesn't matter if he's married. Save the flames and the discussion of semantics...I'm just saying how it went down, that's all.)

Something that doesn't get talked about much is the number of couples who profess to be "interested in single males," but who really seem to be interested in little more than jerking their chains. They'll flirt and they'll flash single guys, maybe even invite a grope or two, but when it comes down to the actual deed, they'll choose another couple every time. I see it happening in the clubs, but have no reason to believe it's not going on in the websites as well. It's chicken-shit wherever it happens, but happen it does.

My totally, "Just-my-opinion, Pulled-straight-from-my-Ass" estimate on the number of couples who actively solicit and follow-up with single males is not more than 5-10%. The actual percentage of strictly MFM encounters (as compared to that of MFMF encounters) may be as few as 1% on any given night.