I need some advice! Single female virgin

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by JnCC

Good God, girl...what kinds of bars are you hangin' out at?

I've been to some rough bars...bars where fights, titty-flashes, wayyy too much Lynrd Skynrd music, even the occasional "drunk-chick-giving-BJ's-in-the-biffy" are almost commonplace. I'm used to finding phone numbers slipped surrepticiously into coat pockets (both mine and hers) after a night on the town. But I've never been in a vanilla bar where a guy came over and started jacking-off on my female-companions clothes, or asked me "so...does your girlfriend like it in the ass?" I've never been to one in which a guy thought it was OK to walk up behind her and grab her tits. And even at the worst bars and the divey-est dives I've ever been to, any guy who muscled his way into a bathroom occupied by a woman would be ceremoniously escorted to the parking lot, most likely "falling down" several times along the way.

GOOD GOD is right!! I retract my advice, Red. Obviously I haven't been to enough clubs (thankfully) to have known this kind of bullshit behaviour went on. I've been to a few off-premises clubs (never been to on-premises clubs) and security was always very good. Anyone who was drinking too much or acting like an ass stuck out like a sore thumb. I've never seen anything like this before in my life. The closest I've come is my sister's office party. Everyone was loud and obnoxious, and there was plenty enough underhanded behaviour going on. Mr. intuition and I just looked at one another and knew we were thinking the same thing: "Man, wish we were at Abstract right now."

Originally Posted by JnCC

I don't think I'm alone in the belief that good sex always has some emotional component. That component may not rise to the level of "love" but for most people it extends well beyond what we feel for a casual friend, for example. It's a subject that people in the lifestyle have been trying to skirt around for 50 years, but which keeps popping up. If we can't always make that distinction, how can she?

I dunno, I don't seem to have any problem with it. I agree that you have to like someone if you're going to have sex with them. Is it love? Sure it is. The same kind of love you have for a complete stranger, just because they're human...just like you. It's unconditional and permanent, but it comes without strings or expectations of any sort. It's mutually treating one another with the utmost respect and care - because everyone is your "neighbour", we all share the common thread of being human - and then going your separate ways. I feel this way about people whether I have sex with them or not. Sex is just a nice way to communicate that.

[VegasLee]

intuition897

Do not believe that many/most swing clubs are like that. Seems he can find the lowest of low places to use as examples of what swinging is about.

In all the years we have been swinging and been in some pretty damn bad swing clubs we have never found one that would allow what he said or even had something close to that happen. I am not saying they are out there but it is not the norm and I am willing to bet any of them are not listed in the club listings that would allow anything like that. The reviews would kill them in a month.

[intuition897]

I'll start out by saying that VegasLee really did a fine job of saying exactly what I was thinking. But I'll add my 2 cents anyway, because I like to hear myself talk...

Originally Posted by just1gurl

But I guess what's disturbing to me is the idea of preying on others. Do what you want to / with yourself. But to utilize the foolishness of the young to get your rocks off, bleech.

Yeah, that disturbs me, too. Is that what you think my motive was behind my advice to check out an off-premsises club? I think it's a little unfair to tar us all with the same stick. There will ALWAYS be sleazebags. There's no getting around that. But no one is suggesting that she should lower her standards and let just anyone have his way with her. It's not inconceiveable to walk into a club as a virgin, and still leave with your hymen intact. She was curious about the whole thing, so I suggested she investigate. Should she lose her virginity during group sex? No, I don't think so. At least I wouldn't if it were me.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

Did your avatar used to have white busoms in a blue-ish cast to them? If so, it was one of your posts that helped me to reach a conclusion for myself. That person spoke of "working hard to bury those feelings"

Maybe. My last avatar was all boobs, but I didn't notice a bluish cast? Anyway...
I doubt that you got the advice to "bury your feelings" from me. I very strongly believe that sweeping one's feelings under the rug is a surefire way to end up eventually needing therapy and medication. It's such a tragedy that people aren't more honest with themselves and with each other.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

There are a lot of different reasons people are in the lifestyle, and they are not all healthy.

Amen to that!

Originally Posted by just1gurl

There are women who post here who've made themselves comfortable with this, there are men who post that say they won't, its not necessarily gender specific. But there are obviously also a bunch who are accomodating spouses who won't stop f--king what moves, and that's pretty obvious as well.

Well, that's true enough. But if that's all you're getting from this board...then it occurs to me that you're seeing only what you want to see.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

I doubt swinging particularly solves that either, because the thrill is doing whats wrong, not just the F-ing. But these are just a bunch of random thoughts concerning an issue that effects people - some? most? deeply.

Well, as Lee said, there are more people doing this than should be. You are right about one thing: swinging doesn't solve anything. It just give the people doing the swinging the opportunity to jerk up their socks and fix their shit. If they don't, and they can't deal with the situations that arise, then it's no one's fault but their own. It requires much work. Good matches are made in heaven, but a good relationship is forged here on earth.
I agree again with Lee that you apparently haven't made use of the full resources here on the board. I might be mistaken, but I thought the "Why do people swing?" question was one that is answered in the FAQ section? In my experience, it's usually not because they want to do something they feel is morally wrong.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

For someone to speak of such an obvious emotional need and to expose their insecurities, and for others to suggest this atmosphere is a resolution for those issues and not something that will contribute further to a loss of self esteem, hum. Bad.

Like I said in my response to JnCC, I guess it's just our polite Canadian clubs up here that have me spoiled. Our first visit to a club, I totally expected to pounced upon like so much fresh meat as soon as we walked through the door. We were terrified that we would be dragged off to separate corners of the club and pushed into doing things we were uncomfortable with. But 5 minutes into the evening, we were laughing at ourselves. If club regulars know you're a newbie, they tend to leave you alone and give you plenty of space. They'll also approach you in a friendly manner and try to make you feel welcome there. Oh there were a couple of predators in the crowd, but no one liked them. And if you're prepared for them, they're merely an annoyance. Otherwise, neither Mr. intuition nor I felt "preyed upon" in any way...and no, we're not 80 years old. We're an early 30's (is that considered "old" by your standards?) couple and we consider ourselves attractive.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

I'm just trying to make sense of what i've read here....

That makes two of us.

[Paphian]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

intuition897

Do not believe that many/most swing clubs are like that. Seems he can find the lowest of low places to use as examples of what swinging is about.

In all the years we have been swinging and been in some pretty damn bad swing clubs we have never found one that would allow what he said or even had something close to that happen. I am not saying they are out there but it is not the norm and I am willing to bet any of them are not listed in the club listings that would allow anything like that. The reviews would kill them in a month.

Not only is this correct in my experience as well, VegasLee, but I can say from personal experience (I've been both staff and patron) that at all the clubs I've ever been to not only would the kind of behavior described by JnCC not be tolerated, it would be a toss-up whether the management or the other patrons got the asshole out the door faster.

By contrast, I've seen (and intervened to stop) some pretty degrading behavior perpetrated by patrons of vanilla clubs that not only went by without action by the managment... it was actively encouraged. All without a stitch of clothing being shed.

I agree that Red might want to rethink her idea, but only because of her inexperience in things sexual. Starting one's sexual life by swinging is like high-diving into the deep end of the pool before you've learned to swim.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by just1gurl

But do you really want to throw away your most exquisite gift to people who don't give a flying shit about you? Because they don't. As I mentioned before, I'm not even bringing up the perverts, and the dangerous.

Well, "the most exquisite gift"... this tells a lot about your values here, and what's important here is Red's values, not yours, not mines. Anyway, I agree with everyone else and advice Red against losing her virginity in a swinger club.

The people who "don't give a flying shit about you... because they don't" is the same that gave her their valuable time to provide her an advice, moreover, one that is pretty closer to your advice, altough without the anger and hate against the rest of the humanity you're expressing here.

You'd have a point if these people were inviting her to their clubs and line up to "pop her cherry" and "steal" that "most exquisite gift"... but that didn't happend so far. Statistics are going against your oppinion, moreover when you didn't attended to a swinger club, and the only experience you had with swingers was here, in this board.

The same people that "don't give a flying shit about you" also spend their valuable time sharing their opinions with you in the board, no one flamed you so far, and as far as I know, you were not offended here, as to make such an unfair statement.

Besides that, I'll say again something I repeated pretty often: one of the things that amazed me the most from swingers when we stepped into the lifestyle is the high moral standards most swingers (couples, by definition) have FOR THEMSELVES before, and then for others. Of course, there are swingers who doesn't give it a shit about anything, but in two years of attending a club, I can acconut for those with just the fingers of my hand.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

There is a lot of dancing around the disease issue, but help me here, "its so erotic seeing your wife with another man". Translation: I don't mind exposing her to STD's and potentially cancer to get my rocks off!

Well... how about exposing MYSELF? It's a shared risk among consenting adults. I appreciate your translation efforts, but let me tell you... you don't speak my language, moreover, you seem to be far from understanding my language, as to dare to translate my "intentions" towards my wyfe.

You may not noticed already, but women have sexual desires, have their own lust as we males have. Some day you may be married and have these lustfull feelings, and you'd may appreciate your hubby to let you fulfill your "most devious desires" as a way to express his love for you... even at the risk of exposing himself to an STD you may get after having fulfilliing it.

In the background I can see some religious traces... "the most exquisite gift".. a morality that supress your desires pursuing some "more higher ends", perhaps an afterlife prize. Sorry, I don't think so. We both believe there isn't an afterlife, that we have just one life to live, this one, and we will try to purstuit all the higher ends but without denying us to live this life.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

I hope all the "open-minded" here... (in reality its more often we like to talk to people who think just like us.) I do not denigrate your choice to live the life you desire. But to portray it without the truth, well....?

Thanks for the quotes... in fact, I am spending time right now talking with someone that doesn't seem to think "just like us". In fact, this doesn't only apply to you, as I said in some other thread, we embrance more the diferences than these things we have in common.

You're, indeed, denigrating our choice with your words. Just talking about a "portray without the truth" when refering to people who valuate honesty the way most swingers does is the same than telling you give a shit about what you already read in this forum, wrote from that vary same honesty. You just called us all liers and cheaters, as if we were here confabulating to convince you to bring your ass to our club and spread your legs.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

I couldn't understand that stupid stanley kubrick film title until now. What the heck does that mean? it became obvious.

Again, the religious stuff... such a pale reflect for the Dante's Divine Comedy, the guy that goes all the way across all the Hell levels finding sinners, learning from their mistakes as to know how to avoid the sins himself and ensure to earn a place in the heaven.

The same you seem you have been doing here... getting in touch with the swingers sinners... but from the safe distance internet gave you... with you inquiring mind and you eyes wide shut... and you learned how to find out the truth buried behind the sinner's words, as to point to the portrait and say the truth isn't there, insthead in the book you can write by now with all your aquired experience from this Hell. Your own Divine Comedy.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

To the folks of the board, I have appreciated your sharing your lives and answering my endless questions, it was invaluable to me. I really want to thank you!

Please, don't. Just try to be fair.

Originally Posted by just1gurl

I expect to be banned maybe, I don't know.

I hope you won't. I believe you won't get reasured in your theories about us so easily.

Now, after speaking from my guts, let's use the brain:

What the hell happend to you and this thread?

Why you felt identified so badly with Red question as to jump in bringing your armor and your sword to start a crusade to deffend her (or you?) against the Evil? Slashing us all in the proccess, just in case... of what?

Are you trying to take adventage of Red's current chance to enmend something you regret from your own life?

Don't answer to me. Just think about it. I hardly believe you became so anger just because of altruism.

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

JnCC tends to be able to find the lowest form of life on earth to compare all of us to.

Not really...I just call 'em like I see 'em. That we differ in our opinions is understandable, since we come from very different places in the lifestyle. I am employed in a business that has absolutely nothing to do with swinging, adult entertainment, or "pay-2-peek" adult websites. Moreover, I firmly believe in supporting my local swing clubs both through my annual memberships and monthly visits to 2 of them. However, I will NOT sugar-coat what I occasionally see as problems in how those clubs are run, or in the lifestyle in general.

You, on the other hand, identify yourself as a "Lifestyles Advocate." An advocate is, by definition, one who "speaks in favor of," or who "argues for a cause." It doesn't matter whether you've been in the lifestyle for "30 years" or "30 minutes," your opinions are biased in favor of the lifestyle. They are NOT objective. Asking a "Lifestyles Advocate" for an opinion regarding any aspect of the lifestyle is like asking a Yugo salesman if a Yugo is a good car.

Your website appears to be sponsored primarily by one swing club. In addition, it's linked to your wife's website, wherein she professes to "really meet people in person that she's previously met on the Internet" Am I safe in assuming that her "internet friends" (the ones she "meets at the club...in person") are primarily those men who've previously subscribed to her $300/yr pay-per-view site? If so, you're one slick dude. Not original (that scam has been going on since at least 1999, when "The Swinging Granny" was running the same thing out of Florida) but slick nonetheless.

*For those who don't know how these deals work, here it is in a nutshell. As you know, prostitution is illegal in most places, while most other adult entertainment is licensed and/or highly regulated. BUT...because swing clubs fall under the umbrella of "private clubs," selling overpriced "memberships" to an adult website, then inviting certain of your more "loyal" customers (sorry, "members") to a "REAL Swingers Party" at a swing club is perfectly legal, so long as there is no exchange of money for a specific act of sex. Of course, there is no promise of sex, and "REAL Swinging Housewifes!" website goes to some length to say so. But the implications to desperate single males are clear..."join the website, and maybe the "REAL Swinging Housewife!" will invite you to one of her "REAL Swingers Parties!" Maybe you'll get to touch her! Mayyyybe she'll even suck your dick!

Of course, it helps "RSH's!" credibility to post LOTS of pictures on her website of previous schmucks...errr..."members" crowded around her in varying activities and states of undress. She makes her money signing up guys on her website, while the club makes theirs on the membership and door fees to the club. And the guys, if they're lucky, get their dick sucked by the "RSH!" for all of 30 seconds. Hey, what can they expect for a lousy $400? To be REAL swingers?

Personally, I think the whole thing is little more than a gross exploitation of lonely, desperate single guys. And to associate that kind of activity with "swinging" should be an outrage to EVERYBODY in the lifestyle. I'm surprised that the vice cops haven't infiltrated some of these scams.

He could not make the lifestyle work with his past and still likes to put most of us in the gutter on a daily basis.

What I just described is "The Gutter" and I certainly didn't put you there. And while I don't feel in any way obligated to respond to your other comment, I will say that our sex life, including swinging, was quite satisfactory. Maybe that was because we did it out of a genuine respect for the lifestyle and the people we met in it, and NOT because we were selling them "memberships" in some silly website as a prerequisite to attending a party with us.

Originally Posted by VegasLee

In all the years we have been swinging and been in some pretty damn bad swing clubs we have never found one that would allow what he said or even had something close to that happen. I am not saying they are out there but it is not the norm and I am willing to bet any of them are not listed in the club listings that would allow anything like that. The reviews would kill them in a month.

Obviously, you haven't read the review I posted in the "Club Listings-Kentucky" section almost two years ago.

[VegasLee]

JnCC,

I guess I could expect no less from you then that last post.

First off if you take a good look. I have no paid sponsors at all on the Lifestyles news site. They are all things I link to because I want to and I promote them. If you take a good look just about every club in the United States is linked off that site.

Also as far as Laura's site if you take a look it is a FREE SITE. No charges. Guess you missed that part. Also if you look no one has to join anything to find out where the parties are. They are all listed on the party site, another free site. You where right about Swinging Granny and there was others in Florida pulling the same thing. Join my site and you can find out where I party. We have never played that game but you feel the need without checking into things to put us in the same catagory as them. You do this alot about many things I have noticed in your posts of the years.

There has never been a prerequisite to attending any party we have hosted, been to or promoted but you assumed instead of reading. Did you miss the big red letters and link on the front page of the FREE site that says "Party with me in Vegas". Goes to a site of Vegas parties. Another FREE site.

Over priced club memberships? The Rooster charges locals $30 to come to the club all week. No yearly or anything else. Does not appear to over priced to me. $5 a night.


As far as being objective that is pure B.S. I have spoken against as much of the nonsense that goes on in this lifestyle as I have spoken for things. Online, on T.V., Radio and in the press. You will find many articles of me speaking against things that clubs/people claim to do in the name of the lifestyle. I also do not just deal with swingers, I have been dealing with the gay/lesbian lifstyles as far as rights go for many years. Hell, I even speak out for the trailer park people you like to bash so much in the past.

In many of your posts you are biggest basher of single men in the Lifestyle of anyone here yet you admitted that the problem you had in the past was with Husbands, not singles.

You have a very narrow view of the Lifestyle and I assume that is from your limited experience with a couple of clubs and poor experiences with them. That does not mean the whole lifestyle is like you have experienced with that limited experience.

99% of what I do in the net and working with conventions and clubs I do for free. I sold most of my web sites and business years ago to do what I enjoy in life. Speak out and work with different lifestyles so that people can enjoy what they want in their life without being attacked by people with limited or no knowledge of what they are talking about. You can look for reasons to bash what I do and that is fine but it would be best to deal in facts rather then the narrow minded nonsense you come up with.

[Red]

First off, I would like to thank everyone who took the time to read and respond. You all are very articulate! I really appreciate it.

I'm pretty sure that I'll decline my friend's invitation. The club probably isn't the best place for me.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts!

[Dave_kat]

Dave here, (just so you know Kat has not read this thread yet, but I will show it to her tonight, she'll probably have tons to say)

We're all from different backgrounds, different philosophies on life, different everything. If we weren't, we wouldn't have such lively discussions. When we agree on things, we all say them in such different ways, but we say the same thing. When we disagree, we do so usually in a freindly way.

I've seen a lot of things in my life. I have seen (and been forced to not interfere, held back in fact) a man in Iraq beating his wife within an inch of her life.

I have seen a woman enter a bar with a bunch of soldiers, and get taken back to the barracks. They filmed themselves getting her drunk and then "running a train" on her.

I have had 2 men come up to my wife in vanilla bars and ask her if she liked it up the ass. Right in front of me.

Those things do happen in life, and they happen quite consistently. I cannot, for the life of me, remember the name of the movie about a woman who got gang raped in a bar, and the defense was that she was wearing a short skirt or dressed revealingly. That was based on real life events.

We, as a group, have many different habits. A lot of us are looking for the couples with whom we are "compatable." We have many different motivations for doing what we do, living the way we do. But we've all made the conscious decision to look into or actively participate in opening our marriages and sharing ourselves at least sexually with others.

That one commonality brings us all to this same place.

Red, my advise to you is this:
1. Be mindful of the motivation of your friend. He is wanting to take you to a place where people openly engage in sexual adventures, a world where consenting adults exlplore sexually related interests. Not all, but probably the majority of people going, are looking for both new friendships as well as a liberated locale for whatever they might get into.

You might be curious as to what goes on. I know I was for the first several times my wife and I went. And I have honestly never been to a club where there were real problems that weren't handled by removing the offender. You would honestly be safe there, and you would be in control of what you would do.

But I also say this. You are 23, and not interested in normal nightclubs. You seem to have a lot of self-respect that comes from knowing your own accomplishments (btw, congrats on the weight loss, etc).

I would have to advise you to wait though. Keep looking for that somone for your own life, however you do so. Look for someone who is there to be with you.

There is plenty of time for you to explore this side of life, once you have more experience saying no, once you have more experience with seeing things. Find out how you are, as a sexual person before entering a world where you could be asked to do things, that even though you say no to them, could distract you from developing into yourself as a mature person sexually.

To the fight going on, remember everyone, we have our opinions. We agree, we disagree, but when everything comes down, and we all go to bed, we all put our pants on one leg at a time. We have all seen and experienced different things. And I know for a fact that I'm guilty of not putting the best worded post on here, as are some others.

[LOL_OMG]

Red, I think you made a wise choice. My daughter is two years older than you and I thought about it quite awhile how I would advise her. You seem like a smart young woman, and I applaude you.

So, who else thinks JNCC and Just1girl need to hook up...

/duck

Mrs LOL

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by LOL_OMG

So, who else thinks JNCC and Just1girl need to hook up...

/duck

Mrs LOL

Now that was funny.. just like to stir the pot don't you.

-Van

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by LOL_OMG

So, who else thinks JNCC and Just1girl need to hook up...

/duck

Mrs LOL

[sereneiders]

JnCC,

If you read the posts I've been making so far, we engaged in discussions in where I found your oppinion valuable to me. I may not agree with you, but you had a consistent perspective from where to opinate, no matter if they come for good or bad experiences, since from all of them we learn.

However, this time I have to say I enfatically disagree. Even when there could be some clubs where things you described may happen, from my experience at local clubs (not in USA), and from what I've been reading here, it seems most clubs are far from fitting your description.

Moreover, saying that this lifestyle was devised as a twist to circunvent the prostitution ilegality and get money from lonely guys by suggesting this way they may score is, at least, a huge missconception coming from a very narrowed sight. Just to prove how narrowed this is, even in countries where prostitution isn't ilegal (like mine), there are swingers, lifestylers websites, clubs, and for those lonely guys to score is cheaper, faster, and legally safe to hire a prostitute than to hook in the lifestyle looking for "leftovers".

It's true that there are people making business with the lifestyle, most of the ones I know of are lifestylers who wanted to fill a void of services for their peers and make a living from that. I applaud them and, if I were having the chance of doing the same, I would be doing so (every one of us knows of things that can be done better, allways).

There are non lyfestilers making business with the lifestyle, but they have to rely on the lifestyle market tastes or they're dammed to loose their money big time. Some may think of this as a way to pimp out lifestylers, but the fact is, the lifestyle is defined by the lifestylers, and not by outsiders.

Thinking about our wyfes as a prostitutes, even worst, stupid ones because they're being pimped out without reaching the money, also shows a very narrowed sight about what drives human sexuality, and by human I mean both genders, since it seems you forgot women have the right to enjoy her sexuality as much as we, males, does, being as lustfull as they want to be.

When I read VegasLee answer to your first post, disregarding the personal oppinion he have about you that I won't endorse just because I don't know you enough, I felt he was able to nicely express my toughts about this.

Then you came with all the business stuff about VegasLee, and I have to say I don't earn money from the lifestyle and even so I share his oppinion.

Perhaps I am the one with a narrowed sight, being too silly, and I should ask for my fee, both from VegasLee when endorsing his oppinions, and from the club owners from allowing them to pimp out my wyfe. Don't you agree?

[jennandjamesinm]

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

Those things do happen in life, and they happen quite consistently. I cannot, for the life of me, remember the name of the movie about a woman who got gang raped in a bar, and the defense was that she was wearing a short skirt or dressed revealingly. That was based on real life events.

The movie was The Accused. It starred Jodie Foster and was put out in 1988.

Jenn

[jedi6942]

Has anyone else noticed that even though we all have differing views we have pretty much all given Red the same advice? I think that says a lot!