married going alone

[Paphian]

Originally Posted by poster_guy03

I wonder what % of non-cheating men stay in their marriages just for the same thing (as opposed to being there for a warm, loving relationship). Just because you're not cheating doesn't mean your motives are pure.

Quite true. And just as dishonest, IMO.

The difference, in the case you cite, is that one is being dishonest to oneself, rather than to another. Being dishonest to oneself doesn't (as often) screw up the lives of others, nor does it remove the ability for another to consent to a situation.

To put it in more graphic (and maybe more understandable, for some) terms:

Staying just for the "maid service and sex", while remaining faithful, is like self-flagellation: you only hurt yourself.

Staying and cheating is like whipping someone who hasn't explicitly requested you to do so.

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by JnCC

If any man ever starts being totally honest, his marriage and/or social life will be OVER. Finis. Kaput.

I see someone does not know the difference between being Honest/truthful and being an asshole.

Some here have met me. Those people know I say what I have to say right out front. Some can deal with it, some can't.

Laura knows I say what I have to say weather it be about her weight, blowjobs or the hottie in the casino and yes, she does have things that make her ass look big. I don't like her to wear them but that is her choice.

Funny, I still have friends and Laura is still with me after all these years.

Truth/Honesty can be 100% all the time. It is about HOW you say it.

[EvilMJ]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

Truth/Honesty can be 100% all the time. It is about HOW you say it.

Exactly. You just summed up anything I have to say.

How do I feel about married people swinging without their spouce. If the spouce knew about it and approved (yes I would to talk to/meet her) then I would be fine. Otherwise I would not get involved. I don't care what his motives are, I would be devistated if my husband cheated on me, therefore I don't want to be a party to hurting another woman in the same manner. Simple as that. I could not be happy with myself knowing that I hurt someone so much just for sex. Not for me.

[TNT]

Originally Posted by JnCC

If any man ever starts being totally honest, his marriage and/or social life will be OVER. Finis. Kaput.

"Dear, let's not buy anything more out of the Frederick's Catalogue until you've had a chance to talk to those Jenny Craig people, mmmm-kay?"

Ted lets me know if I'm starting to gain weight...Getting a little chunky there aren't you sugar butts.

"I don't need to take any 'little blue pills' when I'm fantasizing about the babysitter..."

Well...NA as we don't have babysitters, but he does let me know when he's fantasizing about others as I do him.

"You know dear, there's hardly a day that goes by, that I don't think about my high-school sweetheart."

Good grief, I hope there NEVER comes a day that he does not think about his high school sweetheart....I'm his high school sweetheart

"Those aren't tits. Those are boobs...big, floppy, boobs. Now your little sister...she has some great tits, I tell ya"

Ummm, my boobs are not big and are not floopy and they are much, much nicer than my sisters

"That tattoo above your ass looks like it came out of a J.C. Whitney catalogue. Couldn't you afford something original?"

Sorry, but again I have an original tattoo above my ass, custom designed

"Oh yea...the best blowjob I ever got was from one of your Bridesmaids. What? Did I say something wrong?"

Well, it wasn't one of my bridesmaids as I didn't have any, but it was a friend of ours...I'm good, but I will never be able to do what she did to him...I just will never be able to deep throat thim and lick his balls with my tongue at the same time.

"You gots one ugly-ass pussy. Don't you think that thang would look better with some hair on it? Well, I do"

I've seen ugly pussies...mine is pretty and it has no hair on it at all...Ted seems to enjoy it very much.

"How cute! The 'blue' in the bluebirds tattooed on your breast brings out the blue in the veins running all over them"

NA....I don't have veins on my breasts.

"No, that dress doesn't 'make your ass look fat.' Your ass IS fat."

Yep, I've got a fat ass...but obviously Ted likes it as he rarely can keep his hands off of it....and he does tell me when I wear something that makes me look like crap.

"The thing I like most about swinging is that, even though I love you more and more each day, I'm getting really tired of fucking you."

Well, there are numerous times either one of us will ask the other " I feel like a little strange this weekend, do you?".

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth..."

A funny quote, but yes some of us can handle the truth.


Ted and I are brutally honest with each other and because we are it is difficult for us to undertand why others are not. Even though we both believe that if you are not happy in your present relationship, then do something about it.

However, we have been privy to marriages where we know that either one or both spouses are cheating...some where they know and some where they don't know. In some cases, we understand why they stay and why they are cheating and we cannot fault them for that...it's their life and they have made a conscious decision to stay and do what they are doing.

Would we ever play with someone that we knew was cheating on their SO...in some cases yes....most cases no. In some cases you have to look at it as...Is it betrayal if the ones involved don't see it as betrayal ?


Teresa

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by EvilMJ

How do I feel about married people swinging without their spouce. If the spouce knew about it and approved (yes I would to talk to/meet her) then I would be fine. Otherwise I would not get involved. I don't care what his motives are, I would be devistated if my husband cheated on me, therefore I don't want to be a party to hurting another woman in the same manner. Simple as that. I could not be happy with myself knowing that I hurt someone so much just for sex. Not for me.

Same with us. We have met with a guy that is married WITH the approval of his wife. They are swingers from a few hours away and he was in town for business for two days. We had chatted with them on Yahoo! several times and when he came to town she called Mrs. WS and asked if it would be okay if he met us for dinner. But any other situation like that and we'd assume he was cheating, and like you said, we don't want to be the cause of anybody else's drama. We don't need some jilted spouse stalking us or coming at us with a gun.

Mr. WS

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by JnCC

If any man ever starts being totally honest, his marriage and/or social life will be OVER. Finis. Kaput.

The same could be said if a woman was ever totally honest with her husband/boyfriend. What you are suggesting here is conditional love: "Honey, I love you even though you've gained a few pounds, but I'd love you more if you would lose them." That is such a crock of shit. It's funny how men will hold themselves to a different set of physical standards then they do their wife/girlfriend.

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here for just this reason.

Originally Posted by JnCC

"Dear, let's not buy anything more out of the Frederick's Catalogue until you've had a chance to talk to those Jenny Craig people, mmmm-kay?"

"Honey, why don't you join Gold's Gym before you insist that you wear the same size Levis you did in high school. I'm getting tired of your hairy belly hanging over your belt."

Originally Posted by JnCC

"I don't need to take any 'little blue pills' when I'm fantasizing about the babysitter..."

"Yeah, I am really horny tonight, Bob. I get that way when I think about your best friend."

Originally Posted by JnCC

"You know dear, there's hardly a day that goes by, that I don't think about my high-school sweetheart."

"God, I remember Bill in high school... He was such a sweety. I should have married him, he's now a rich doctor you know. So did you call the unemployment office today about your check?"

Originally Posted by JnCC

"Those aren't tits. Those are boobs...big, floppy, boobs. Now your little sister...she has some great tits, I tell ya"

That's not a dick... now your little brother, THAT DUDE IS HUNG!"

Originally Posted by JnCC

"That tattoo above your ass looks like it came out of a J.C. Whitney catalogue. Couldn't you afford something original?"

"Yup, that Harley tattoo is original, just like everybody else's."

Originally Posted by JnCC

"Oh yea...the best blowjob I ever got was from one of your Bridesmaids. What? Did I say something wrong?"

"The best I ever got it was from your best man in the brides room right before I walked down the isle. Man, that guy could pound me into tomorrow. Do you think he'd like to have a threesome with us?"

Originally Posted by JnCC

"You gots one ugly-ass pussy. Don't you think that thang would look better with some hair on it? Well, I do"

God, would you trim your pubic hair, you look like the missing link down there. I mean after all, you make me shave mine."

Originally Posted by JnCC

"How cute! The 'blue' in the bluebirds tattooed on your breast brings out the blue in the veins running all over them"

Does that pin-up girl have a beard??? Why'd you put it on such a hairy part of your body?"

Originally Posted by JnCC

"No, that dress doesn't 'make your ass look fat.' Your ass IS fat."

No, tucking in that Tee shirt doesn't make you look fat... You ARE fat."

Originally Posted by JnCC

And the one that a lot of guys would like to say, but don't...

"The thing I like most about swinging is that, even though I love you more and more each day, I'm getting really tired of fucking you."

Ditto.

Mr. WS

[TNT]

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

"Yeah, I am really horny tonight, Bob. I get that way when I think about your best friend."

I actually told Ted this ...a couple of times...the result of it was we had threesomes with both of the men I was referring to.


Teresa

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Paphian

90% of the cheating men I have ever known stay married for their convenience, not that of their spouse or children.

Really? The reason I'm asking, is that I was involved with a woman who was a licensed marriage/family counselor, and she said that many couples DO stay married for the sake of their kids. She said that was why there was such a "bubble" in the divorce rate right after the youngest kid left home. I know that in my own marriage, I worked a lot harder, and stayed in it a lot longer, because we had small kids. It had nothing to do with "convenience." In fact, it was terribly INconvenient to be married to somebody I cared deeply for, but could no longer see a future with.

They stay married because it's a way to keep that unpaid maid and sex service that they find so useful and comforting while they're not out fucking around.

That's also very interesting, because in my experience, about 90% of the people I know who are having affairs (both M/F) claim they aren't having any sex with their spouses. They say that's what they miss...and why they're looking for physical intimacy outside the marriage.

Again, I don't know what's really going on...I just know what people tell me. But it was certainly true in my case.

BTW - I certainly didn't stay in my marriage as long as I did for the "unpaid maid service," since I WAS paying for a maid service..."Merry Maids," as I recall...and we ate out most evenings.

[bluesplyr]

Did I start all this![b]

[curiousagain]

I have to admit in some cases, cheating very well may be the lesser of possible evils for some. But, since all you have to go on is that person's word and they've already in your mind proved themselves dishonest by cheating, what can you do?

If somebody wants to cheat as long as they leave me out of it, I'm certainly not going to browbeat them over it. If they ask, I'll tell them I think it's a bad idea and all the reasons why. But, nobody should get pissy if someone is not accepting of their infidelity.


Besides, "no cheaters" is not "no cheaters unless you convince us it's the best for you and we'll risk all of the possible problems we could be involved in etc. " If someone says "no cheaters" shouldn't that be accepted and not questioned?

[WesternSwing]

It should, but you'd never believe the number of emails we get from cheaters trying to get with us even though our profile says... and I quote: "For single guys, if you are married and looking to cheat, look somewhere else. We don't endorse cheating and we will know." They still think that means every guy... but them. In fact as I looked at our profile to copy and paste this, we have a message from a single guy... you can even see his ring in his photo if you look careful.

Mr. WS

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by TNT

...we both believe that if you are not happy in your present relationship, then do something about it.

That...and the fact that you're able to be honest with each other about your occasional desire to play with others...are probably the reasons that you're still married.

How many of your other friends are still married to their high school sweethearts or first wives/husbands? In my school, it's maybe 2 dozen...out of a graduating class of almost 800.

...we have been privy to marriages where we know that either one or both spouses are cheating...some where they know and some where they don't know. In some cases, we understand why they stay and why they are cheating and we cannot fault them for that...it's their life and they have made a conscious decision to stay and do what they are doing.

It pains me to say this, because you guys are not known for pulling punches, but that seems like the most reasonable, non-confrontational response I've seen on the subject.
"...it's their life"

Originally Posted by VegasLee

I see someone does not know the difference between being Honest/truthful and being an asshole.

I think "someone" does. Go back and read what I said to Intuition about "a little dishonesty being a good thing" in a marriage. "Truth" and "tact" do not almways make good bedfellows. My point was/is, that there are some things you can't say to a person, especially a person you love, without coming very close to being an asshole. Those things are best left unsaid.

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

The same could be said if a woman was ever totally honest with her husband/boyfriend. What you are suggesting here is conditional love: "Honey, I love you even though you've gained a few pounds, but I'd love you more if you would lose them."

ALL love is "conditional love," it's just a question of degree.

I knew somebody would bust my chops over things a man could say to a woman and still be absolutely "truthful." You're right...the door does swing both ways. Men DO hold women to a different standard than we do ourselves. Fortunately, women hold us to a different standard also. Have you noticed all these big, tubby guys who have svelte women hanging all over them? What's with that, anyway?

Don't even get me started on "Harley tattoos." I know this woman...I see her around, have spoken with her a few times. She's 40-ish, seemed halfway intelligent at first, and very nice looking. But...she has this big-ass tattoo, about 4 inches tall and about 10 inches wide, right across her shoulder blades, that says "FAT BOY"

WTF was she thinking? Here she has this beautiful back...a back God himself couldn't improve upon, and she gets this big, stupid, commercial tattoo on it.

She could have just got one that says "LOSER" and probably saved herself a couple bucks.

[sereneiders]

Everyone have a recipe that works for him/herself and their marriages. I believe it's pointless to compare recipes since it is a matter of taste, as long as the recipe works for some people, let them use it.

Every recipe surely have a balance between honesty and tact, and I don't feel I would be able to set on fire someone else recipe just because it doesn't fit my personal standards or my personal taste. They're doing a dish for themselves and not for me.

One of the things we valuate the more is to be respectfull with other people, and we like to be respected as well. It is not my business if someone else is cheating, and as someone posted, if it's the way they need to add STP to the marriage engine, and it does work, then be wellcome.

I compared before swinging with cheating, thelling the former is a way to enhance our marriage, while the later MAY lead to degrade it. This means it also MAY NOT lead to degrade it, and even that it MAY enhance it. I am confident about the enhancing effect swinging have in our marriage, but I am not confident about cheating.

And this is not a theoretical question. We're togheter since 15 years, and have been swinging for the last 2 years. From the very begining we admited we were not jealous, so we gave each other permission to eventually have an affair (which would be an open marriage, not swingers, nor cheaters... just another recipe flavor), but also asked each other not to know about these affairs, because "theoretically" if you have such an affair it would be something you do to yourself, if you "manage" to get caught, then it's very likely that you're using the affair to punish your partner. But even having this explicit permission, I didn't dare to have such an affair and let go several chances, just because I had my bit of doubt about the chance of hurting my wyfe's feelings should she ever find out: a theory is just that, a theory until you proof it, and if the theory is wrong, I wasn't up to (and I am still not up to) hurt my wyfe in any way, ever... no way. She's the best thing that happend to me, she manage to make me bring up the best from myself, I love her almost as much as I love myself, so this love is way on the top of my list, higher than my love for sex.

As for me, having an affair, even with her permission, MAY lead to degrade our relationship, so I didn't. But this is me, my recipe, my values, my standards, which aren't better nor worst than anyone's else recipe, values and standards.

Again, I believe there is a lifestyle where people have free sex without any concern for the others involved, but I don't know it's name. As for me, it isn't "swinging" because swingers sex isn't "free", it is regulated by some moral standards. These standards may vary from one to other, because these are also personal recipes, but from what can be seen in this forum, there exist high standards. Some may have a rule that lacks for others and viceversa, but there's allways a set of rules to follow.

And, in general, it seems that cheating doesn't fit with our set of rules. So I wouldn't dare to deem cheating, I just dare to deem "cheating swingers", and just because it would mean having myself a double standard, one that, again, MAY lead to degrade my own marriage.

I am not up to have a double standard to satisfy my lust, so there's no way to make me have a double standard just to satisfy someone's else lust.

So, if you want to cheat, feel free to do it, but...

Please, don't call it "swinging" because that harms swingers public image.

Please, don't look for us to cheat in our bed, because that MAY harm my marriage so I ask you to take care of the consecuences for third ones from your behavior.

Please, don't ask me for advice on how to be acecpted by other swingers, because my advice MAY have to do with something that at last MAY harm other's swingers marriages.

And please, if you want to cheat with other swingers, please, let them know you're cheating, for them to evaluate the risk. Please, do not cheat on them too.

[HappyPeople]

I didn't see the part where he said his wife didn't know what he was up to, maybe she doesn't have a problem with him going out without her. Granted when he said "I've decided to go it alone", it didn't sound like a mutual choice by maybe it is.

How would that change things? Are those who are put off by married cheaters equally put off by a married person who is "allowed" to go outside the marriage?

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by HappyPeople

How would that change things? Are those who are put off by married cheaters equally put off by a married person who is "allowed" to go outside the marriage?

A married person who is "allowed" wouldn't be cheating. Whether he/she can convince potential play partners that he/she has permission is another, although related, issue. Some potential play partners might be too suspicious to consider such a match-up, while others would probably need varying degrees of proof.