married going alone

[JnCC]

It's pointless to try and filter our own values through somebody else's life experience. Every time I see somebody offering a critical perspective on this subject, I wonder how this would be playing out if Mr. "I'm no cheater!" had married Mr. "Well, I AM a cheater's" wife, and vice-versa. Would they still be so sanctimonious about cheating?

It's like listening to guys who have never been in combat talk about what they would do if somebody were shooting at them. It's all piss-and-wind, not worth listening to. They're writing a story of their lives in which they are the "The Hero," and anybody who doesn't subscribe to their code-of-conduct is somehow a "child of some lesser God."

Well, I don't buy it.

Some people are fortunate to marry a spouse whose sexual needs and values are identical to their own. A few are able to bring those needs into alignment. The rest do the best they can to keep their families whole, while getting their own physical or emotional needs met. I'm reminded of a guy who's wearing a colostomy bag...it ain't pretty, but it's what he needs to get through the day. The last thing he needs is me or anybody else telling him how repulsive he is.

As for whether or not you've "joined the lifestyle," or joined "cheaters of America," that's easy. Go to the guys website, click on one of the lifestyle clubs who advertise there, and tell them that you're married, planning a visit to Las Vegas, and would like to visit their club without your wife present. It doesn't matter what he says...if they take your money (and I've never known a club that wouldn't) you're "joining the lifestyle."

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by JnCC

I'm reminded of a guy who's wearing a colostomy bag...it ain't pretty, but it's what he needs to get through the day. The last thing he needs is me or anybody else telling him how repulsive he is.

As for whether or not you've "joined the lifestyle," or joined "cheaters of America," that's easy. Go to the guys website, click on one of the lifestyle clubs who advertise there, and tell them that you're married, planning a visit to Las Vegas, and would like to visit their club without your wife present. It doesn't matter what he says...if they take your money (and I've never known a club that wouldn't) you're "joining the lifestyle."

your comparison does not hold water at all. One is a "requirment" and one is a choice. Apples and oranges here.

Yep, all clubs will take their money. Let him tell people he is there without his wife and he finds that the club becomes a spectator sport for him. I see it many times each week.

Finding someone that works for you in your married life means working at it. Not just marrying for the sake of getting married. Honesty up front helps alot also but seems that most of the "regular" folks don't seem to think honesty is as important as the ones of us that have found great relationships.

Our lifestyle would go a long way to lowering the divorce rate even if they did not have sex with others. Trust, honesty seems to fix many things in life but most of the people in the world can not deal on that level.

Even the ones that are kidding theirself they are doing the right thing for the "sake of their family".

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by JnCC

It's pointless to try and filter our own values through somebody else's life experience. Every time I see somebody offering a critical perspective on this subject, I wonder how this would be playing out if Mr. "I'm no cheater!" had married Mr. "Well, I AM a cheater's" wife, and vice-versa. Would they still be so sanctimonious about cheating?
...
Some people are fortunate to marry a spouse whose sexual needs and values are identical to their own. A few are able to bring those needs into alignment. The rest do the best they can to keep their families whole, while getting their own physical or emotional needs met. I'm reminded of a guy who's wearing a colostomy bag...it ain't pretty, but it's what he needs to get through the day. The last thing he needs is me or anybody else telling him how repulsive he is.

I happen to believe that there are more people married than should be. Being single is not a tragedy. I don't know what the legal definition of it is, but the kind of dysynchronous sexual relationship you refer to is what I woud call an "irreconcilable difference". If they still choose to remain married, even though their sex life is dead and buried, the fact still remains that there IS NO EXCUSE FOR DISHONESTY. There are always other, more honest, options. Even if they're not the easiest ones to take. Marriage is supposed to be an equal relationship, where both people give and get equal respect and treatment. If you liken it to a company owned by two people, stepping out on your spouse without telling her because she "just wouldn't understand" or becacuse you "don't want to hurt her feelings", is a bit like selling your partner's stock in the company from under her nose...for her own good. Except she's not seeing a thin dime of the profit.

Comparing an affair to a colostomy bag is probably a pretty close match. You can hide it under your everyday clothes, but it's still full of shit.

Originally Posted by JnCC

It's like listening to guys who have never been in combat talk about what they would do if somebody were shooting at them. It's all piss-and-wind, not worth listening to. They're writing a story of their lives in which they are the "The Hero," and anybody who doesn't subscribe to their code-of-conduct is somehow a "child of some lesser God."

Well, I don't buy it.

I'm quite sure you can't say you know everything about everyone. Are you certain that they don't know what they're talking about??

[mrs good times]

Originally Posted by intuition897

Comparing an affair to a colostomy bag is probably a pretty close match. You can hide it under your everyday clothes, but it's still full of shit.

Well said Intuition!

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

Mr. Bluesplyr,

You did not join the lifestyle. You joined the "cheaters of America" group. Swinging is about more then just the sex. It is about being honest with all concerned and staying in your marriage for merely the convenience is not being honest with Anyone involved.

Don't try to kid us even though your are kidding yourself.

It's interesting to find out the side effects of this missconception of swinging as having sex without any moral concern, that usually bring up non swingers with this questions.

Spoomonkey referred to a couple of discussions about cheating, one of them from Uomo, and at the #70 post in Uomo's Blowjob Hipotetical topic, Ginger Meadows gave us an example of the way this missconception is affecting her childrens custody in a court.

Besides the drama that may bring to others swingers to play with cheaters, this missconcption have broad consecuences in the way the lifestyle is perceived from the rest of the society on the grounds of a fixed morality, because of a supposedly lack of morality we swingers have.

In JustAskJulie's What s swinging to you? several boadr members tried to state a definition for swinging (including the question of why is so important to define that), and again the cheating issue brings up as to point out what swinging is not.

One of the things that most called my attention in our beginings, when meeting the first swingers we ever saw, and having ourselves the same sort of prejudices, is the extremelly high moral standards most swingers have for themselves and for other people, and as for me, those moral standards are way more strict than the fixed one our society impose to married couples.

When we "ignore" the "sexual faithfull" standard coception to share our sexuality with other people, we know we face certain risks, ones that usually would geoperdize a marriage, thus we need to reinforce our marital contracts with other rules that engage us to pay attention to several aspects of ur relationship, some so subtle that aren't even mentioned in the social standard contract.

This means an extra effort we have make, and not as the price for being able to include third ones in our beds, instead that use to be a consecuence of being used to make such an effort before becoming swingers.

But this is, at last, an extra effort, we need to focus on it, we may need from time to time help to keep focused, we know that, so we also use to provide that help if requested or needed by others (for example, avoiding adding emotional stress in a sexual encounter with another marriage party), so we end up paying atention and taking care of everyone involved, and this leads to the needing of being honest, and for our honesty to be respected.

Swinging is a way to enhance our marriages, while cheating is a way that may lead to degrade it, and because of that we're so against the cheating whole idea. And by "our" marriagaes, I mean not only "my" marriage, also the couple sharing our bed's marriage.

The drama of being with cheaters doesn't come just from the eventual problem coming from the cheated one who may bring up, the drama may be private, and come just from endorsing something against the private extra rules we enforce for ourselves, because if we endorse them, why we wouldn't break them? Being with a cheater could lead to a drama inside our marriage, one the cheater won't even be aware of, and one a proper swinger will (or is supposed to) avoid to start.

If there is something that bring to surface here, is that "having sex with anyone without any moral concept" is something that use to happen but lacks a name on it own, and because of that it seems so hard for the lifestylers to point out this huge difference.

sereneiders

PS: Why not "cheaters of the world"? I am pretty sure that most swingers around the world share the same moral standards than the American ones (joke, don't answer this one, please)

[poster_guy03]

Originally Posted by Paphian

....90% of the cheating men I have ever known stay married for their convenience, not that of their spouse or children. They stay married because it's a way to keep that unpaid maid and sex service that they find so useful and comforting while they're not out fucking around......

I wonder what % of non-cheating men stay in their marriages just for the same thing (as opposed to being there for a warm, loving relationship). Just because you're not cheating doesn't mean your motives are pure.

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by intuition897

I'm quite sure you can't say you know everything about everyone. Are you certain that they don't know what they're talking about??

No, I don't. But to be honest, I don't think that swingers are any more or any less honest with their spouses than anybody else. They're more honest about their sexual needs, to be sure. But in other areas, they're about the same as non-swingers, as far as I can tell. If they were totally honest, there'd be a lot more divorces among them.

I don't know what's going on with these guys who cheat. Maybe they're really good, caring husbands and fathers. Maybe they've searched heaven and earth, trying to get their wives interested in sex again. Maybe they're hard workers and good providers, totally honest with their wives about everything except where they're really at when they're supposed to be working late at the office.

Or maybe their wives are the glue that's holding their families together, and the guys are nothing but selfish, lower-than-whale-shit jerks and opportunists, risking it all for some cheap thrills.

I've known both kinds. I've also been in a stable, happy, "mostly" honest, non-cheating marriage. I know how much work it takes...and I know what the rewards are. I'm not insensitive to the issue. But when it comes to other peoples marriages, and why they do what they do, the only thing I know, is that I don't know.

I DO understand why cheating is such an anathema to swinging couples. As I stated in a previous post, when we did this as a couple, we avoided cheaters at all costs (unfortunately, one of the worst would-be offenders was the husband of a couple that was quite close to us). What I don't understand, is why people seem to go out of their way to insult and degrade them. If you don't want to play with them, just say so. You don't need to lecture them on their evil ways. They have "Dr. Phil" and "Dr. Laura" for that...

I think a little dishonesty in a marriage is a good thing. It's kind of like the oil in an engine that allows the moving parts to slide past one another, without actually touching. Maybe having an affair is like adding some sort of "relationship STP" to your engine...it gums up a healthy one, but lets you squeeze a few more miles out of one that's about to expire anyway.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

Swinging is a way to enhance our marriages, while cheating is a way that may lead to degrade it

This is the very simple point that a few folks are just too mentally numb, emotionally narrow or irreparably bitter to get...

Everyone goes through bad experiences - either in marriage or some other very close relationship. The logic error that I am seeing is that somehow cynicism is a sign of wisdom Maybe it is just some pathetic badge of courage...

I know what a bad marriage is - and I know what a good marriage is. If you're a man, you take care of your shit at home. I've always followed that - through the good times and bad - and because of it, I can be honest with my wife in all things (not just sexual). Then again, I tend to think a little honesty in a marriage is a good thing. :rollseyes

Spoomonkey

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by JnCC

No, I don't. But to be honest, I don't think that swingers are any more or any less honest with their spouses than anybody else. They're more honest about their sexual needs, to be sure. But in other areas, they're about the same as non-swingers, as far as I can tell. If they were totally honest, there'd be a lot more divorces among them.

I disagree.

Originally Posted by JnCC

I DO understand why cheating is such an anathema to swinging couples. As I stated in a previous post, when we did this as a couple, we avoided cheaters at all costs (unfortunately, one of the worst would-be offenders was the husband of a couple that was quite close to us). What I don't understand, is why people seem to go out of their way to insult and degrade them. If you don't want to play with them, just say so. You don't need to lecture them on their evil ways. They have "Dr. Phil" and "Dr. Laura" for that...

Out of concern for them. It sucks to be told flat out that you're making a really big and stooopid mistake. Makes a person feel anything but warm and fuzzy. But we don't do it to be mean to them. We just have no qualms about letting them know that we can't respect such weakness of character. But it's pretty rare that we'll dish out something as harsh as that without also offering them some suggestions for turning their situation around. If it's too difficult for them to stand up and take responsibility for their actions and decisions, well whose the hell fault is that?? We just can't, in good conscience, bite our tongues and smile pretty at them. It feels irresponsible to to not correct someone when they're doing something - or about to do something - that is going to eventually hurt somebody. It's not about being holier-than-thou; we have high standards for ourselves, it's true, but we wholeheartedly invite others to raise their own standards for themselves. Low expectations and low standards are what stirs the divorce pot.

Originally Posted by JnCC

I think a little dishonesty in a marriage is a good thing. It's kind of like the oil in an engine that allows the moving parts to slide past one another, without actually touching. Maybe having an affair is like adding some sort of "relationship STP" to your engine...it gums up a healthy one, but lets you squeeze a few more miles out of one that's about to expire anyway.

Yikes. I really disagree with this. Start out honest, and stay honest, and you never need to lose sleep at night. Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.

[Mr&MrsSwing]

I would just have to tell you that if you truly love your wife, you will tell her about your feelings. Don't go and do this without her knowing no matter how curious you are, because it is true, you will be a cheater not a swinger.

[JnCC]

Jeezus girl, where do you find time for a life?

If I took on the responsibility for telling everybody in the whole world what I thought they were doing wrong, and what I thought they needed to do to correct it, I wouldn't have time to sit here and respond to these inane posts.

Besides which, I'd probably be spending more time on the floor than I would standing up.

If there's a possibility it could cause physical injury or harm anybody outside the immediate family (domestic violence or drunk drivers, for example) I'll speak up. Otherwise, I have neither the time nor inclination to get involved in other peoples family affairs. I will help where help is asked for, but I don't butt into other peoples business, and I'd appreciate it if they'll refrain from butting into mine.

If any man ever starts being totally honest, his marriage and/or social life will be OVER. Finis. Kaput.

"Dear, let's not buy anything more out of the Frederick's Catalogue until you've had a chance to talk to those Jenny Craig people, mmmm-kay?"

"I don't need to take any 'little blue pills' when I'm fantasizing about the babysitter..."

"You know dear, there's hardly a day that goes by, that I don't think about my high-school sweetheart."

"Those aren't tits. Those are boobs...big, floppy, boobs. Now your little sister...she has some great tits, I tell ya"

"That tattoo above your ass looks like it came out of a J.C. Whitney catalogue. Couldn't you afford something original?"

"Oh yea...the best blowjob I ever got was from one of your Bridesmaids. What? Did I say something wrong?"

"You gots one ugly-ass pussy. Don't you think that thang would look better with some hair on it? Well, I do"

"How cute! The 'blue' in the bluebirds tattooed on your breast brings out the blue in the veins running all over them"

"No, that dress doesn't 'make your ass look fat.' Your ass IS fat."

And the one that a lot of guys would like to say, but don't...

"The thing I like most about swinging is that, even though I love you more and more each day, I'm getting really tired of fucking you."

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth..."

[funtwo]

Remember it wasn't me that said this, I believe it was the owner of Plato's Repeat "Swingers are composed of guys who are afraid to cheat on their wives". Just goes to show how many different points of view there are. We too, are always in a lot of discomfort when we knowingly are in the company of men or women who are cheating. Is it our own insecurity that creates this discomfort or what? I don't believe that it is some holier than thou attitude, 'cause we aren't. My 2¢.

[just1gurl]

"stuff" that comes out of our mouth while by passing our head isn't necessarily "truth".

[intuition897]

Cain asked, "Am I my brother's keeper?" If you ask me, he was supposed to be.

We're obviously in different camps: Keepers and Non-Keepers. Hey, it may not be my business to actually LIVE somebody's life for them, but it doesn't stop me from pulling someone out of traffic when I see they're about to get hit with an emotional tractor-trailer. Just because you don't see the scars doesn't mean they're not there. It's the emotional shit that really screws people up, not just physical damage. And what happens when people get all fucked up? They make life miserable for themselves AND the rest of us.

And BTW, there's a big difference between dishonesty and tact. There are a lot of ungenerous comments (AKA "truths") I could make about that last segment of your post, but really...what would it get us but a lot of hard feelings? I will say that those "truths" are irrelevant, and that bringing them up serves no purpose other than to make someone feel like shit. So, as my Momma taught me, if you can't say anything nice, you don't say anything at all. But there are some issues/realities that are important to bring up and deal with, like sexual compatibility, dissatisfaction, intimacy issues, infatuations and emotional attachments outside the relationship and the like... It is unfair to not give your equal partner the dignity of a choice.

[hilltop]

Originally Posted by mywildside

My question to the experienced swingers, is how do you feel with married people swinging without their spouse.

Anyone remember this line?

Hey, he posed the question . . . careful what you ask for.