What are the first few things that come to your mind when a guy has never had a gf?

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by mystic

I get the impression women don't really give a shit who I am until I demonstrate some kind of value to them.

That is actually a very perceptive statement! Yea, yea, some women are going to claim they're not THAT shallow. But as a rule, it's true more often than not...at least where dating and relationships are concerned. Women in general want to fuck "up," not "down." (Men, in general, want to fuck "prettier" than "uglier," but that's another story)

Honestly, the women I should be with (like my genetic compliment) should probably be a lot like me. But they aren't exactly in public approaching strangers like I do, trying to build social skills. LOL. They're probably playing video games or reading or watching star trek.

I'm starting to get a clearer picture of why you're finding it difficult to meet women.

I stayed at a hotel that was hosting a Star Trek convention once. There were some very interesting characters hanging around that place well into the night. Maybe if you started hanging out with them? You know...get some latex Spock-ears and a resin-cast Phasor. Who knows..you might get "beamed" into some chicks room. Highly unlikely...but possible, I suppose.

[good times]

Originally Posted by mystic

I guess I don't like being rejected, and anything to reduce the odds of being rejected helps me out.

I hate to break it to you, but as a late bloomer myself (had my first girlfriend and date when I was 19), you won't be successfull until you are able to embrace the rejection. What I mean by that is that you are going to hear a lot of no's or not interested's before you hear a yes, so you might as well man up, ask the girls out, and get those rejections behind you. Until you can do that, I doubt you will ever get a girl friend.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by good times

you won't be successfull until you are able to embrace the rejection.

Stephen King wrote about how bad it was to be rejected, until he started using it as motivation. He would take the rejection letters and hang them on a nail by his desk. He ended up with enough rejection letters to make a rather thick phone book...

Now - of course, Stephen King could publish his used tissue...

Life is rejection. There are more "no's" out there floating about than there are "yes's". Until you learn to bull your way through the "no's" - you'll find yourself on the outside looking in.

Spoomonkey

[mystic]

Originally Posted by JnCC

That is actually a very perceptive statement! Yea, yea, some women are going to claim they're not THAT shallow. But as a rule, it's true more often than not...at least where dating and relationships are concerned. Women in general want to fuck "up," not "down." (Men, in general, want to fuck "prettier" than "uglier," but that's another story)
I'm starting to get a clearer picture of why you're finding it difficult to meet women.

I stayed at a hotel that was hosting a Star Trek convention once. There were some very interesting characters hanging around that place well into the night. Maybe if you started hanging out with them? You know...get some latex Spock-ears and a resin-cast Phasor. Who knows..you might get "beamed" into some chicks room. Highly unlikely...but possible, I suppose.

I agree. Men qualify women 80% on their physical appearance and health indicators and 20% on everything else (personality, character, interests, independance, social status, social skills, assertiveness, maturity, intelligence, confidence, overall well-being, sense of humour, etc.).

Women are exactly the opposite, where looks and physical health are far less important. It can matter, but I think women have these triggers inside of them that they can't decide who they are attractive to if they are presented a male who meets a lot of the stuff in the other category. They probably react in the same way men do when they see a very attractive and healthy women.

I don't blame the world or human beings for the way it works. I get it. It makes sense too. When two people get together when these things aren't naturally met, things can go very wrong, as in not adequately providing the right economic, emotional, social needs that are expected when having children, among other things.

And if anything, being a person who had unhealthy parents, I'm a direct consequence on what can happen when two people don't have their shit together - producing someone like me. I know it's not healthy to blame your parents, especially after one of them is dead, but I can't help but think about what life would be life if I actually had some cool parents. Parents who actually actively saw where I was headed when I was younger and talked to me about it and helped me live in a more healthy way so that I was aware of it, even back in grade school (never had friends, couldn't socialize, always got picked on, was depressed, thought I wasn't smart and got bad grades even though it turned out that I was actually quite intelligent). Instead, I got parents who never bothered to understand me. They never knew my needs. My dad was a whiney boy trapped in a man's body who was just so aggressive and always kicked the shit of me and my 2 brothers. When I tried to be assertive, I was neglected or punished. I wasn't even allowed to leave the home and play with friends. I was scared to do anything, so I didn't do anything. And I just felt like I had no freedom and choice to do what I wanted up until university. By then, I think I had a mental fortress around me. I wasn't letting anyone in

And when it came to girlfriends and sex, I was just told that it was wrong - period. I was told that I shouldn't even seek out a sexual relationship or talk to women, because the only reason I'd want to talk to women is to have sex with them. And I never witnessed a happy, loving relationship growing up, so I can't say I knew what one should be like. I just knew I had strong desires for it to be different.

So here I am desiring something and thinking that I'm wrong. Too scared to even admit that I wanted it. Afraid to think of what others would think if I did accept and unattractive, clingy girl in grade 9 just to see what it was like. And then seeing everyone else have sex and have girlfriends and thinking something was really wrong with me, mainly that I had so many mental blocks that prevented from persuing such relationships. And when I finally got over most of that around 20 or 21 years old, I felt it was just too late. Just being so socially anxious, reserved, innept socially, etc. made everything very depressing and overwhelming. And when I got to about 24, I went into really strong depressive states where I'd just be alone in my couch for days and not eat or sleep. I'd probably cry off and on for days straight. And when that happened for about 5 or 6 months, I finally got so fed up that I started to get some help.

Since then I'm a lot better. Yes, I'm not a bubbly happy person, but I'm no where near before. Things have really changed. But for the most part, they aren't where I'd like to be. Sometimes it feels like the task to get to where everyone else is at and build the life I want is so gigantic of a task that it still seems very overwhelming. I'm taking small steps and reminding myself that any step, however small, is a good and positive step that will get me to my goals. But it does seem to really exhaust my energy just thinking about it.

I just wish I had a mentor that would help me out. Who had gone through the same thing, or at least has successfully treated this kind of thing for many people and has a really good understanding of what's going on. The last psychologist didn't get it at all. After 20 hours of seeing him, I can't say he gave me much advice at all. Most of my self-improvement came from myself and reading lots and lots and lots of books on various topics and trying to make changes.

Geez I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry. I bet most of this has nothing to do with what you were saying. Sigh...

[mystic]

Originally Posted by Alura

Thanks for the additional input, Mystic. It makes your situation a lot clearer.

I think you need Toastmasters International. They are a civic club dedicated to improving one's communication skills, improving self-confidence, etc. Here's a link to their website: http://www.toastmasters.org/ On the left, near the top of the first page, you'll find "Find a Club." I didn't know your zip code so I didn't look to see if there's one in Windsor.

Forget the clubs and bars. You don't seem to enjoy them at all and if you meet a woman there, you'll probably find that she does like them. Such a difference of opinion, right at the start, would not bode well for a relationship. She may also have an alcohol problem you don't need to deal with.

Now, if you find a woman at Toastmasters, chances are she's there for the same reason you are and will understand you quite well.

There is also a professional training course called The Dale Carnegie Course. (Dale Carnegie wrote How to Win Friends and Influence People.) They teach the same things. I took the course when I was in my twenties and found it helped a lot. I think it's more expensive than Toastmasters, but you'll probably get to where you want to be a lot faster.

Keep us posted!

Mr. Alura

Thanks! I found a club here in windsor that is a bus ride away. I'll email the main person and talk to them about it to see if it's something they can help me out with. It seems to be business focused. I guess the skills can be transferable, but I'm more interested in learning everyday social skills, like small-talk, when to use humour and how, knowing how to react and what to say, how to lead a conversation, etc. I'm going to ask those kind of questions to that person to see if they have anything like that. I don't really care about the costs. Money is not a big deal for me. I just want some help. Thanks.

[curiousagain]

Mystic, it sounds like you are having some success from your hard work.

A couple of pieces of advice. A sincere "hello" and a smile open more doors and conversations than anything.

Life is like baseball. You play a lot of games over a year, and you're gonna lose a lot. It's just part of the game. At this point, I think a friendly conversation would be a win for you.

Check with your local college also. They might have classes on etiquette and social skills.

Keep a smile and a positive attitude. Sometimes people act the way they feel and sometimes they feel the way they act.

Good luck to you in your endeavors.

[sweetshyquiet]

Mystic, I am just really impressed with you and your story and your courage, and I hope you will keep us posted.

My handle is a misnomer, because I'm sweet but not at all shy or quiet, so I have a hard time empathizing with your situation though I can intellectually understand it. Please take the following with that perspective:

In public, at a club or party, I don't think I would want to spend much time with someone who had never had a girlfriend and seemed to have a reduced set of social skills. The very nature of the interaction is time-sensitive: I'm here for just a couple of hours, to meet or play with people before we all have to go our separate ways. I am going to respond most favorably to others who can "make best use of that time," so to speak -- demonstrating personality and intellect with razor-sharp small talk, wit, etc.

Whereas, anyone that I meet through one of the lifestyle personals websites, I insist on written interaction up front, and there's an explicit understanding that it will be a few days at least before we're sitting down together in person. The nature of that interaction means there is time to carefully choose your words, put your very best foot forward, so on.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't stop your efforts to interact more in public. And I agree with the men who've said that you've got to get rejections under your belt --

but I also know, like you've said, that success is what builds the esteem. So, maybe you should consider a strategy of also trying to meet women via a venue where you can shine more with the skills you've already built. Have you investigated some of the personals sites like Match, True, e-Harmony, etc.?

It also seems like the rejections that will occur online (and they will occur! Even the most "high-value" guy or girl can get shot down because something just doesn't "click") might be easier on the ego. The stakes just aren't as high when someone says, "Thanks, but I don't think we'd be a good fit" via email, as opposed to in person.

Just some thoughts...

[mystic]

Thanks for your encouraging remarks about the work I'm trying to do.

Originally Posted by sweetshyquiet

In public, at a club or party, I don't think I would want to spend much time with someone who had never had a girlfriend and seemed to have a reduced set of social skills. The very nature of the interaction is time-sensitive: I'm here for just a couple of hours, to meet or play with people before we all have to go our separate ways. I am going to respond most favorably to others who can "make best use of that time," so to speak -- demonstrating personality and intellect with razor-sharp small talk, wit, etc.

Exactly. I pick up on that ALL the time. And these self-help books say, "the negative self-talk that's going on in your head isn't rational" is pure bullshit. Granted I know I definately have some bad negative self-talk going on, but this is something that I just know is true. It's not "always" true, but it is true in most cases.

From what I understand, being sharp socially, playful, witty, etc. are not skills, but are genetic traits. Yes, they can be manipulated to some extent, but it has a lot to do with the way one's pathways in the brain are organized when taking in external stimuli, and some human brains are wired differently. Mine takes a very long route to my long-term memory. I will never be able to be sharp and witty, but always contemplative and thinking. It's not going to go away.

And it's funny, because the book I read to learn about this also talked about people with short pathways in the brain think we are not very intelligent. I have an IQ of 141. I bet I'm smarter than you. Not out of arrogance or to say I'm better than you are (because I'm not), but from pure genetic statistical probabilities. But if you were to meet me in person, you'd probably come to the conclusion that I had an IQ of 90 or 100 tops.

It's amazing than when women describe a man, they say common things like he's funny and "smart" - yet most of the guys that get these compliments aren't that smart at all, at least not in the sense that they are in the top 10% of the world. They are probably average. Intelligence often comes at a price, as 60% of the world's smartest people are in a group consisting of only 25% of the world's population. Just food for thought.

I think what actually bothers me the most is that people can judge you instantly about your genetic makeup. It feels like an attack on your core being, not just a mistake you've made, and gives this feeling that you are inadequate and will never measure up. I try not to feel that way, but the constant reality of being reminded that you can't fit in and people excusing themselves after 30 seconds to 2 minutes is very frustrating.

Even when I'm not anxious around people I feel comfortable with, I'm still not a social butterfly with a grand sense of humour. Being playful and fun is extremely hard for me. I often wish it were easier and more natural. I think partially it's my mood. Maybe going on an SSRI would be the right decision, despite it's drawbacks. But even when I was feeling absolutely in bliss (it's happened once, where no negative thoughts were interrupting my ability to feel good), I could not crank out jokes or make funny comments. I think it's partially a skill, but I wasn't blessed with any natural talents for humour or an active "right-brain".

When I make a social risk in saying something I think is funny, it usually results in a medium laugh 1 time out of 20 attempts, and I get a sincere laugh about 1 out of 150 attempts. So I might have to work at it for days just to get the self-esteem boost of getting 1 laugh from an attempt at humour.

Originally Posted by sweetshyquiet

Whereas, anyone that I meet through one of the lifestyle personals websites, I insist on written interaction up front, and there's an explicit understanding that it will be a few days at least before we're sitting down together in person. The nature of that interaction means there is time to carefully choose your words, put your very best foot forward, so on.

Have you investigated some of the personals sites like Match, True, e-Harmony, etc.?

I've tried this. I got some people to actually chat with me on MSN. Out of those, I tried to set up dates with them after some positive chat sessions. I tried to be as playful and interesting as a could. Other times I'd just be myself. I tried all kinds of things. Ultimately, every single person flaked on me.

And also what I noticed is that everyone was into games. I've read all about it, so I'm well aware of it when it's happening. It's like they use it to play along and create this sense of attraction. In fact, after learning a lot about attraction (with respect to flirting, etc.), it almost seems fake, as if real attraction doesn't occur often enough, so they devise a game to create it. It's astonishing, but most couples who actually stay together never played the games, or even it appeared that way, they were probably just confused and weren't doing it on purpose in response to how they were feeling. The relationships that often go bust and don't last very long initially started to play the games.

So what if you're aren't sharp enough to play along? Sure, I might come up with what to say hours later after thinking about it, or the next day, but that didn't do me any good in the moment. Unless I have a default thing to say/do in every situation, I usually run into blanks. To me, it seems silly, and I think it's too much effort to learn for little reward.

I often read that "wanting a women to like you for you" is a wishful fantasy (stressing that you have to basically alter your personality and character instead), but in the end, does one want to pretend to be someone they aren't their entire lives and keep at it? Or do you want to spend a lot of time with someone who actually doesn't the real you? How could one actually stand that? To me, that would really burn me out to the point of exhaustion, even after 2 weeks of successfully pulling it off.

Originally Posted by sweetshyquiet

I guess my point is that you shouldn't stop your efforts to interact more in public. And I agree with the men who've said that you've got to get rejections under your belt --

It's not the rejection so much as it's the self reflection on my behaviour. When I don't succeed or have a pleasent experience or say something very stupid, my mind is very critical of me. My mind is on auto-pilot, always thinking about what's going on and what just happened. It's impossible to turn it off, so I have to direct it's attention elsewhere, and that's really difficult to do.

Originally Posted by sweetshyquiet

but I also know, like you've said, that success is what builds the esteem. So, maybe you should consider a strategy of also trying to meet women via a venue where you can shine more with the skills you've already built.

This is a great idea, but I have no idea where to go. I mean certainly this would be better than random approaches on the bus, mall or street. Statiscally, I'm trying to do something that most normal people would find challenging. In a lot of ways, I'm doing one of the hardest things. But I don't have a choice. My mom won't bother to hook me up (I don't like her much - she thinks I'm not a capable adult who can take care of myself and she thinks I don't know what's going on). To be honest, I'm sure I don't want her involved at all. And I have a business partner and an employee, but my business partner's friends have already made it clear they dislike me (mainly because of my lack of social skills, anxiety, etc.). According to all of them, I make them uncomfortable, I creep them out, I don't provide anything to their evenings and generally dislike having me around. Sounds like great feedback, doesn't it?

I often wished I had a place to go where people were. A place I could enjoy by myself, but also gave me the oppurtunity to socialize and show me in the best possible light. But what is it? I've been trying to figure that out for months.

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate all the comments I'm receiving. Thank you.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by mystic

Okay, here's the thing. When a high status guy says a woman is beautiful, it doesn't matter what you said because your a high status guy. But when a low status, low confidence guy says it, guess what? You get thrown out pretty fast. You get pegged as the other 700 lovable losers that had approached her in her entire life. Honestly, I get the impression women don't really give a shit who I am until I demonstrate some kind of value to them. Sure they are nice about it (well most of them anyway), but the semantics are what they are.

Did you forget to preen your feathers?

You are trying to intellectualize an instinct, and that doesn't work well. Going after a woman with a plan on how to 'show your value' is just asking to fail. Way back when, I would say, though it pains me, that I was like you to an extent. I was younger, but I didn't really 'get' it until I was about 21. I had dated and I had some girlfriends but it was all unsatisfactory.

Then at 21 or so I got it and its simple. What ever you do, do NOT try to impress women, do not try to show them 'value', do not try to prove to them why you are worthy of their time. Doing so will make you seem LESS desireable, they will see a guy who is trying so hard to 'get them' and a little thing ticks in their subconcious which says 'This guy really wants you, lets see if you can do better!' and there will be no attraction to you.

Instead come from the possition that they have to show that they are worthy of YOUR time. Think 'asshole', you won't be one, but its a way to bring you down from the level of fawning you have placed yourself at. Don't always pay attention to them, make them think you could take or leave them, make THEM insecure in if you really want them. The same subconcious which told the nice guy to take a hike is now saying 'I'm good enough for this guy!' and now you have that attraction factor.

What this comes off as is self confidence. Few women want a weak man, and believe me you don't want those women, her biology is looking for strength and someone 'worthy' of baring her young. Even if they are just looking for a fun night, sexual attraction is hardcoded in our genes.

Now whats funny with this is a lot of women will deny what I'm saying. This came up in a group once (non swingers) and one woman told me I was wrong, and then later 1-1 told me I was right but she didn't want to give the other young men there (we were all in our early 20's) the wrong idea about women. I’ve had a lot of women agree with this but only 1-1.

I went from 1 night stands and unsatisfactory relationships to dating 3 women at once, one of whom I married and we have been together for 15 years and I can't see it ever ending of our own accord.

Trust me, its simple, let them show YOU why they are worthy of you, not the other way around. I would also recomend working out, it not only gives you some muscle which will give you that self confidence you lack, but it also pumps up the hormones which help there as well. Women are far more forgiving on looks then men are, (how many ugly girls are with great looking guys? Now how many great looking girls are with ugly guys?) but it will help YOUR thought process, even if its not important to her.

[EvilMJ]

Man I have never seen so much over analysing in my life. . What ever happened to just striking up a conversation with someone?

Okay, I tend to be a bit of an extrovert, but when it comes to men I tend to prefer them to make the first move. If a guy takes the time to show me he is interested in me, and I feel some attraction to him, then I would be more than happy to talk to him and see if there is a possibilty of some connection. I won't deny that I am going to be more attractive to the hot, well built manly man, but I have also found that if someone is nice and funny, they tend to get more attractive to me the more I get to know them. Personality is a big factor. I have met some really hot guys who I lost interest in within 10 minutes of talking to them because they were jerks, assholes or complete morons.

I also have had a guy tell me how beautiful I was before, and after my inital reaction that it was just a line, I thought it as rather nice. I also had someone compliment my shoes before and It felt nice that someone noticed that I took the time to pick out those particular shoes (long story with that one). I guess what I am trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with a compliment once in a while.

I was a late bloomer too by the way. I was 17 when I had a first boyfriend and that was very innocent. It wasn't until I was 19 that I really started seriously dating. So take your time and relax. I find that the thing i want usually shows up after I stop looking for it.

[Dynamar]

Originally Posted by Vespertine

Shoes are very important to us. Men who know a good pair of shoes when they see them are important to us as well.

While playing poker in my regular game a couple of weeks ago, I picked up my purse to get my lipstick. A new, hot guy in the group said "Hey, Prada!" I was instantly wet. 'Nuff said.

[mystic]

Chicup, I appreciate your comments. I really do. But I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I didn't know how attraction worked though. When I was referring to showing value, I wasn't talking about bragging and hitting on her overtly. I'm well aware of that. The reason I think saying a women is beautiful or complimenting her shoes is bad is because it telegraphs interest before she's interested in you, so the challenge to her is gone. In fact, showing an aloof disinterest in her is probably better.

When I say showing value, I'm merely saying that you are behaving in a way that women find attractive - the leader, the quick thinker, the protector, the warm smile with a true sense of humour, acting with confidence, possessing high character, well groomed (but not necessary hot in anyway), independent, thrill-seeker, and all the other things I said earlier.

Yes, there are women who have said otherwise, but I still don't believe them because even in my isolated life, I've observed this to be true. Yes, if a hot guy or a high status guy says some generic line, it's not going to matter because the built-in social status conveys more than the words themselves. In fact, if the guy has such a high social status placed on him, he could even insult the women and create attraction because the women would just want approval from him. When it comes to hot guys, they can't do this alone, because then they'd just appear to be impossible unless the women was equally as hot. In many cases, it's better for the hotter guy to shut the hell up. It's clear the women isn't interested in what he has to say, and often he'll blow it.

I guarentee that if I had gorgeous women locked into each of my arms as I walked across the room and said "hey, what's up?" to a third women, I'd probably get instant attraction from her - it's called pre-selection. But if I was sitting alone, I wouldn't for sure.

I'm aware of playful flirting, negs, cocky and funny attitudes, showing dominance, baiting and releasing, kino-escalation and all this other stuff. At an intellectual level, I probably know more than everyone here, if only because I read 50 or 60 books on the subject, researched people who are actually quite an artist with sort of thing and have mapped it down to a science, because it can be - it is hardcoded in us as you said. Women would definately not want to admit it, but they all have the same attraction switches, regardless if they like it or admit it. And of course, there are techniques for calibrating to different kinds of women, like throwing more negs at very attractive women and complimenting more to unattractive/insecure women.

But the big underlying thing is that these require good social skills to weave them in. I'm just learning to say "hi" and strike up a conversation that lasts longer than 2 minutes with somebody - anybody. One of the few conversations that lasted longer was with a women who was 50 years old on the bus, and she practically lead the entire thing. I recall not knowing what to say and looked around a lot, but she kept talking anyway. I'm just learning to make real friends too, and that's been equally challenging. I can't focus on these techniques, voice tone, body language and all these other things while I'm trying to basic conversation skills. It's just too damn hard.

I'm just going to have to keep trying.

[JnCC]

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear"

You've received some very good advice from this forum. If you took even a few cues from it, you would meet people. Obviously, that's not what you want to do.

I think you rather enjoy the role of "social outcast."

That doesn't make you a bad person. In fact, for some types of personalities, being an outsider is it's own reward. But you're wasting your time when you ask people on this board for suggestions, and we're wasting ours when we offer them.

Your life isn't going to change appreciably until you want it to.

[mystic]

Umm. No, I emailed the toastmasters person from my area already earlier today. I also called the crisis center at my area to make an appointment to see a psychiatrist for some ssri's, because it's about time. Depression just makes doing more self-improvement a lot harder and for the first time in awhile, I cried several times today. I went to the gym to get it out of my system, but it's not really working.

I'm always thinking about what is said here and how I might apply it. If you didn't like my response, that is fine. When it comes to your response, if it was just a change in frame and all my problems could be fixed, I'd do it. What you're saying is like advanced stuff. I can understand if you don't really get me. You've never lived through it.

And no, I don't enjoy being a social outcast. That's a really stupid thing to say. I don't enjoy carrying this pain with me each and every day. That's the problem. It just feels like it's a lot and it burdens me down because the problems have become so massive. It's not a simple quick fix and voila! - laid and happy!

I don't think you're also used to voices in your head giving you negative thoughts all the time. I get confused because sometimes they are rational, sometimes they are not, sometimes they based on fact, and sometimes they are not, and sometimes they contradict ideas in my head and basically they just never shut up. So if someone has said something that would have helped a lot and I dismissed it, I blame the voices. Which is why I'll review everything that was said here after I wake up tomorrow.

[sweetshyquiet]

Originally Posted by mystic

And when that happened for about 5 or 6 months, I finally got so fed up that I started to get some help.

Originally Posted by mystic

I also called the crisis center at my area to make an appointment to see a psychiatrist for some ssri's, because it's about time.

I'm confused. If you haven't seen a mental health professional yet, what was the "help" to which you referred in the earlier post?

If you haven't talked to a therapist yet -- ideally one who specializes in social anxiety -- I'd say stop posting here, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, and head directly to a shrink. Your issues are not about where to meet women, but what to do with them once you've met them, and what about your past and your way of thinking is stopping you.