The Single Male who is Married

[Atilla]

oh and one more thing that I need to add to this discussion.

I was once a bored married female who was tired of putting out relentlessly for my hubby who had a raging sex drive compared to mine. I DID actually think at one point to letting him loose to find his own fun and enjoyment but just cause I was tired of putting out for him when I didn't want to. Is this what these wives have done?

When we discussed swinging, I thought you never know unless you try it whether you're going to like it or not AND if you can't beat them, then join them. We're having a blast now, our sex life is awesome both with partners or by ourselves, I never complain of having sex with my husband and if anything my sex drive has increased.

[swing52001]

Bottom line? it's a matter of personal preference, am I correct?

I think that sums it up fairly succinctly. It doesn't matter to me if; a) he's cheating; b) has permission; c) his wife is just tired of putting out and told him to go get it elsewhere. That should matter to him and his wife. What matters to me is what I choose....that is to say what I prefer (as above). That determines what kind of person I am. And that's far more important IMO.
And for the record, my gut tells me that a male playing on his own 'with his wife's permission' is a rare bird and not likely one that I'd want to get tangled up with. I would be concerned about the possibility of contributing to an unhappy situation.

[kittylikesmfm]

Originally Posted by JnCC

The fact is that whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, cheating is a way of life for far more couples than swinging is. That's been true since the dawn of mankind, and will likely be a part of our mating strategy until the last homo-sapien on earth falls dead.

i completely agree jncc. swinging [sic: cheating and open marriage] is condoned in many traditional societies and always has been. notice i combine the two, as if they are one, because really when you look at some tribal groups, including some that still exist, along with ancient societies that were important enough to leave a written history, infidelity and 'multiple sex partners after mating' go hand in hand, no matter what semantic spin you want the idea to have.

[txduo2000]

Originally Posted by kittylikesmfm

i completely agree jncc. swinging [sic: cheating and open marriage] is condoned in many traditional societies and always has been. notice i combine the two, as if they are one, because really when you look at some tribal groups, including some that still exist, along with ancient societies that were important enough to leave a written history, infidelity and 'multiple sex partners after mating' go hand in hand, no matter what semantic spin you want the idea to have.

I disagree with this assessment. There is far more difference than semantics in "open marriages" and "cheating".

I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.

In my opinion, they are not one in the same, nor even close.

[Mrs Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by txduo2000

I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.

In my opinion, they are not one in the same, nor even close.

txduo I totally agree with you on the differences between open marriage and cheating. The two are not even close. In the latter (cheating) someone is deceived and gets hurt. In an open marriage everyone is in agreement with what is going on and no one gets hurt.

Mrs Spoomonkey

[JnCC]

I don't think she was saying that swinging and cheating were the same, I think she was saying there are similarities. I know this is a hot button among both swingers and the "morally righteous" alike, and regardless of which side of the debate a person is on, nothing said here is likely to change anybody's mind about it. But before this topic once again roars into a war of semantics and personal sniping, at least consider that 98% of all married people are in relationships in which sex outside the marriage isn't condoned under ANY circumstances. By the reckoning of most of the population then, swingers, (who DO have sex outside the marriage) are seen as "unfaithful"...if not to their spouses, then at least to the vows of their marriage.

Some years ago, there was an ad campaign which asked whether Certs candy was a "candy mint" or a "breath mint." I didn't waste a whole lot of time pondering the question. I just figured it could be either, depending on why the person was putting it in their mouth. Likewise, swinging. I honestly believe some people do it in lieu of cheating. I also believe others do it because they find it an intensely bonding experience.

My experience in the lifestyle was that for me, it was a little of both.

Originally Posted by txduo2000

I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.

If I'm not mistaken, the O'Neil's, who literally "wrote the book" on "Open Marriage" in the early 70's, divorced just a few years after their work was published. After all the happy-horseshit about how they "trusted each other implicitly" and "communicated so well," it turned out that she had fallen in love with one of her "secondaries."

If anybody has any better information on that fiasco, I'd be interested in hearing it.

[curiousagain]

I use to think there were certain rules that had to be followed for a marriage to work. After having most of those fail to prevent failure and seeing all sorts of marriages that work or don't work as the case may be; I figure if something works for you, stick with it, and if it doesn't try something different.

I pretty much have the same philosophy about swinging at this point. As JNCC said, some are in it as a bonding experience or an experience to share together. Some are in it as a substitute for cheating. Some are in it for a little of both. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me as long as it doesn't affect my paycheck, my love life, or my sex life.

Personally, I can't, don't, and won't endorse or assist cheating for all of the obvious and previously explained reasons. But, there are those who do. In fact, I think most non swingers tolerate cheating as long as it isn't their spouse doing it, whereas most non swingers think swingers are "doing a bad thing". Most swingers abhor cheating, but then some don't care.

To each his own. As long as someone doesn't try to involve me in something I don't want to be involved in, I've become pretty tolerant of others actions.
But, there is the key, as long as they don't try to involve me against my will.
I hear a lot about the cheating single males. I think most of them involved in the net are on swing sites cause they're looking for sex. The cheating females involved in the net are on vanilla dating sites because they are looking for sex AND a replacement for their present spouse.

None of us are gonna change the world. At some point you have to say "just leave me out of it". As I have stated in the past, any time I have been told by a female that she and her husband "have an open marriage" or she has "permission" I simply ask if that means it would be OK for me to clear it with him personally. To date, without exception, they have been gone faster than a paycheck.

[Paphian]

Damn. That was one long thread.

It's really too, too bad that this sort of discussion doesn't come up in sex-ed or other sorts of classes on a regular basis long before most people get married for the first time. Might save a lot of pain (and money!).

It seems that many that cheat can't conceive of (or can't approach with their spouse) the idea of playing together, or swinging in general, without the preconceived idea that it is cheating--just not being called as such. So, they figure, what's the problem with a little extra-marital sex? There's a whole bunch of people saying that they do it all the time--swingers!

The problem is, it isn't the sex that's the real issue. The real issue is lying and the betrayal of trust.

And therein lies the reason most folks who do swing are so down on cheating, methinks. Trust has everything to do with being able to swing together as a couple and stay together as a couple. Why, if a couple has gone through the effort of building enough trust to start swinging, would most couples want to include someone who hasn't made that effort? Apart from the potential for major drama (and trauma), the sort of attitude that cheating implies simply doesn't mesh well with the sort mindset that most swinging couples have about swinging.

I think what a lot of people misbelieve about swingers is that they're "easy". It seems to be a general conception: that since swinging folks have sex with more than just their spouse/SO, they must not have any moral values at all, and just want to fuck anyone who happens along. And if they have no morals about that, then they obviously won't care if someone's cheating. So the people who are cheating look at swingers, figuring that there's an easy situation: swinging folks won't tell their spouse they're cheating, won't do something uncomfortable like show up at their front door uninvited, etc. After all, they just want to fuck, right? The thing is, that's dead wrong.

And the problem is... that doesn't change the basic situation: if you're cheating, you're being extremely dishonest with the very person about whom you claim to care most. And worse, IMNSHO, you've stolen something--something you had no right to at all: your SO's ability to make an informed choice for him- or herself. (They put medical and legal people in jail for stuff like failing to get informed consent--it's that important.)

And that, to me (and it appears, to many others here as well) is the major portion of the issue. Because it inevitably leads to questions, stated or not, like: "What else is a cheating spouse lying about?" "Does he (she) love her (him) more than me?" "Does he (she) respect me at all?" And that's without beginning to think of the questions the swingers involved are gonna start thinking about...

It's all down hill (like, from 5000 feet without benefit of a 'chute) from there. The only questions are how large the crater is gonna be, and how much 'collateral damage' will occur.

So the thing is... if you're cheating, you really don't fit into most swingers' concept of what swinging is--you're not really a swinger, by most swingers' self-definition. And you don't fit into monogamous folks' idea of monogamy, either--cause you're not a faithful spouse by their self-definition. Is it any wonder that neither group usually wants to give a cheater the time of day?

On the other hand, if everyone involved in the relationship knows what's going on, no one is being cheated on. Whether you're open to separate play, couples-only play, polyamory, or any of a host of other possibilities, the crucial difference is that no one is lying. So... no betrayal of trust, as the rules are mutually agreed upon. There was informed consent.

People who make truly open relationships (from swinging to polyamory, and everything else in between) work deserve a lot of respect. It isn't easy (in fact, I'd say--from personal experience--that it's more difficult than faithful monogamy). It requires lots of communication and trust--just the very thing that people who are cheating cannot bring to the table and, it seems to me--the root cause of swingers being so down on cheating.

[intuition897]

BRAVO Paphian! Well said!! CuriousAgain, once again you've also hit the nail on the head. I've actually just put this thread in my browser favorites. Inevitably we get waves of 'mingle' men (married, but trying to play single) wanting to hook up with swingers here, and it would be really nice to have this thread to link to for them. With so much common sense here, it almost feels like finding a lost goldmine. In some ways you don't want to let anyone else know it's here, because if this site gets flooded, it'll change. But at the same time, you want to tell everyone about it because there is just SOOO much ignorance and stupidity out there! You want to tell them, "Stop screwing around and hurting each other! It isn't necessary! LOOK at this website and READ this; absorb what these people are saying for God's sake because it's the truth."

[Mrs Spoomonkey]

I still think there is a distinctive difference between a cheater and "most" swingers. I say "most" because we have had experience with the couple that uses it in place of out and out cheating behind their spouses back like Jncc mentioned.

Originally Posted by Jncc

Likewise, swinging. I honestly believe some people do it in lieu of cheating. I also believe others do it because they find it an intensely bonding experience.

One couple we met would always come to the club and she would hunt down a single male and disappear to a room with him. Sure enough some time later a fight would occur and they'd leave. To much drama!! And the husband is hurt and frustrated. She was a cheater under the guise of swinger.

We look for the people who are in it for the intense bonding experience they have together as a couple. If we know someone is cheating we'll let them know how we feel about it and definately not play. Can't change them or stop anyone who doesn't care from playing with them but we don't want any part of it. Doesn't matter if it's a male or female. We found out after play with a single female that she was cheating. Can't take the play back but it won't happen again.

So like Curious said we can't change the world or the fact that there are cheaters out there. But we want no part of it and don't condon it.

Mrs Spoomonkey