"Happy Swinging" vs. "Happy Relationship" - Which Rules For You?

[SluttyWife]

I saw this on I-Village (and posting it for your convenience...hoping
this should constitute "fair use" otherwise here's the direct link to it:
http://love.ivillage.com/lnsproblems...r1blz1,00.html )
yesterday and it had Sir Mike and I up chatting into the night. Lots of "experts" offering their opinions there with some valid points as to why they think non-monogamous couples aren't happier than monogamous ones.

We're curious about Swingers Board views on this cos we've noticed
many of you have been in this for the long haul.

Namely how do you swing and "play" while still honouring your relationship?
Does each part of a couple go into this willing to "pay a price" at the cost to their relationship for namely maintaining
a sexually open relationship? If so, in what way(s)? Do you find this gratifying?
How do you deal?

If not how do you keep close? Is there a lot of compromise going on
in order to maintain "happiness" in your relationship in order to make room for swinging?

In other words at the end of the day does "happy swinging" or the "happy state of your relationship" as a couple rule?

Here goes...
****article starts here ****

Trend Alert: Open Marriages: Does Agreed-Upon "Cheating"
Make Couples Happier?

By The Love Council (I-Village.com)

Meet the Love Council, our hand-picked panel of relationship experts and writers. We've brought together a legendary sex expert, a couples therapist, a spiritual advisor, a wise comedian and a husband-and-wife team to bring you diverse and distinctive insight and advice on important relationship issues. Each month, the Love Council weighs in on the hottest topics that affect you and your relationships, from current events and buzz-worthy books to the latest trends.

A New York magazine article entitled "The New Monogamy" states that marriages are becoming more and more open. The thinking is that agreed-upon "cheating" will ward off the urge to stray further. In this view, as long as each spouse "sluts around" (their words, not ours) within the boundaries deemed acceptable by both parties (rules range from just kissing to engaging in full-blown orgies), they aren't actually cheating. Sure, it sounds pretty crazy. But let's just go with it for now, keeping in mind how unnatural forsaking all others can feel to some in committed relationships and how striving for true monogamy can outright ruin some relationships. So, provided the rules of engagement are mutually agreed upon, is the open approach reasonable? We asked our Love Council to weigh in.

Dan Cronin: "Why Are These People Together to Begin With?"

I think there's something really interesting and healthy about people who want to redefine the boundaries of a relationship so that they are more likely to stay within those boundaries. These people are taking into consideration the evolutionary view that we're a bunch of horn dogs, the practical view that most marriages end in divorce and the emotional view that deceiving someone you love really sucks.

But there's a description in that article of a woman returning home to find her boyfriend in the bathtub with another woman - and thinking nothing of it - that gave me pause. It made me wonder why these people are together to begin with. This woman's impassive response to what for most people would warrant a dish-throwing blowout makes me wonder what emotions could have surfaced under even slightly different circumstances. What if this woman was feeling depressed? Had a bad day? "Honey, I'll be right out - just after I'm done scrubbing the back of this chick I met at the Arcade Fire concert." I don't think so.

Sure, old monogamy has its problems. But I still think it's better than the new one, if you can make it work.

(In addition to being a husband and father to twin girls, Dan Cronin is an NYC-area comedian, writer and ad copywriter. He has been a featured stand-up comic as well as a sketch performer on NBC's Late Night with Conan O'Brien, and has also appeared on Comedy Central's Premium Blend. His video clips, performance schedule and other "unfiltered detritus" can be found at DanCronin.com.)

Cathi Hanauer & Daniel Jones:"Is This Arrangement Reasonable? Absolutely"

Cathi: We already know that monogamous marriage is far from a raging success in this country. In my opinion, if some couples want to try veering slightly from the contract by creating their own rules, more power to them. I commend their courage in thinking deeply about marriage and its shortcomings, and for having the creativity and guts to adjust it to fit their mutual needs.

The catch, of course, is that this undermines one of the major reasons people marry -for security. And though security doesn't do much for passion, it's also a huge reason people stay together "till death do us part." Part of committing to someone else is knowing that person will be there for you through thick and thin, in sickness and in health, and if your "thin" or "sick" happens to come when your partner is out "slutting around" with someone else - or vice-versa - I would think it would be very hard not to feel hurt or betrayed. I've actually suggested open marriage to Dan more than once, though I have to admit I'm always a teensy bit relieved when he says no freakin' way.

Daniel: You have to remember that just because it's all above board doesn't mean it's trouble free. I know a couple with an open marriage, and they're happily together. But I do know they struggled with jealousy and worked very hard to compartmentalize their feelings.

I believe that all human beings are hard-wired to feel jealous, and it's an emotion you'll likely have to learn to manage - not ignore or sidestep- if you decide to open up your relationship to others.

Cathi Hanauer is the author of My Sister's Bones and the editor of the New York Times best-selling essay collection The Bitch in the House: 26 Women Tell the Truth about Sex, Solitude, Work, Motherhood, and Marriage. Currently, Cathi contributes to Elle, O, Parenting and more and, along with her husband, Daniel Jones, writes "The Double Edge," a relationship column in the newly launched Tango magazine. Her second novel, Sweet Ruin (Atria/Simon & Schuster), will be released in early 2006.

Daniel Jones is the author of the novel After Lucy, a Barnes & Nobel Discover Award finalist, and the editor of The Bastard on the Couch: 27 Men Try Really Hard to Explain Their Feelings about Love, Loss, Fatherhood, and Freedom. He is a contributing editor at the New York Times, where he edits the weekly "Modern Love" column in Sunday Styles. With his wife, Cathi Hanauer, he writes "The Double Edge," a relationship column in Tango magazine.

Dr. Sarah Stedman: "This Concept Is Frightening!"

This question made me wonder if I am just an old-fashioned, socially programmed sexual Neanderthal. But the truth is that I have a system of spiritual values for human dignity that I stand by, and this phenomenon called "the new monogamy" flies in the face of every quality I consider to be essential to the success of a long-term relationship: commitment, mutual respect and the spiritual celebration inherent in two people building a life together. This new version of monogamy sounds like a glorified excuse for self-indulgent, irresponsible behavior, and my suspicion is that there are a lot of younger people out there who are just as frightened by that concept as I am. So if the so-called new monogamy sounds like a clever way of having your cake and eating it too, it probably is. Monogamy is a choice. It doesn't come naturally and sometimes it requires negotiation between partners. But the fact remains that in the end you can either have that cake or you can eat it, but you simply can't have it both ways.

Dr. Sarah Stedman is trained by the Celebrant USA Foundation to officiate at, compose and perform personalized ceremonies, including weddings, commitments, funerals, divorces and more. She volunteers as a counselor to fellow cancer survivors.

Michele Weiner-Davis, MSW: "Managed Monogamy? Oxymoron"

You have got to be kidding. I've been a marriage therapist for nearly 30 years and I've yet to witness even one open marriage work. Setting morality or the dangers of STDs aside, this idea of managed monogamy - talk about an oxymoron - is a disaster waiting to happen. Even if spouses have good intentions and believe they've agreed upon fair rules for fooling around, all bets are off once they open Pandora's box. The promise of pleasurable, kinky, extraordinary sex has a funny way of enticing people to behave in ways- especially toward their spouses- that they might not ordinarily. And when they do, jealousy sets in. One spouse wants to call the deal off and the other is too busy getting turned on to care. So, although old-fashioned monogamy may be a far-from-perfect solution for more adventurous couples, it's still, by far, the best one we've got.

Michele Weiner-Davis is an internationally renowned relationship expert, psychotherapist, marriage educator and sought-after speaker. She is the author of six books, including Divorce Busting, The Sex-Starved Marriage: A Couple's Guide to Boosting Their Marriage Libido (Simon & Schuster). Her popular Website, DivorceBusting.com, offers valuable information for people in troubled marriages.

Dr. Ruth Westheimer: "There's No Acceptable Percentage of Risk"

Because I'm a sex therapist, I see the people who have problems, and that probably slants my view in a predictable direction. But boy, do I see problems when couples have been having sex with other people - even when both parties initially consented to the idea. Two happily married people might think that their relationship can survive introducing other partners into the mix. But when one partner gets jealous, then the damage done to the relationship is often irreparable.
Are there couples that engage in this agreed-upon cheating without incurring any harm? Possibly. So I guess the question becomes: What are the odds of a relationship falling apart because of such behavior? I can't be certain, but if you value your relationship, there is no acceptable percentage of risk in my book. It's my belief that the old monogamy is far better than the new one.

The original sexpert, Dr. Ruth has given advice for over 20 years and counting. She's hosted many television shows ‑- including Sexually Speaking with Dr. Ruth Westheimer and What's Up, Dr. Ruth? among others. She's written 30 books, such as Dr. Ruth's Encyclopedia of Sex, The Art of Arousal (Abbeville Press) and her newest, Dr. Ruth's Sex After 50: Revving Up Your Romance, Passion & Excitement! (A Best Half of Life), taught classes at Yale and been named one of People's "Most Intriguing People of the Century."

Do any of you reading this agree or disagree?

**** article ends here ****


Our take is that that a great deal of consideration must be given
to each other's comfort levels at any given moment
and to those we choose to get sexually
involved with. The health of "our" relationship being a good indicator
of whether or not we choose to "swing" on any given night or period of time.
In other words we should take care of each other first before sharing our
"love/sex" with others even if we find we are disappointing or a "let down"
to them. Swinging can get "sticky" at times and we've had many periods of
"time out" over the years. We feel "happy relationship" rules for us
and are prepared to try and work at it. Right now we are trying to
"work at it" again. Hence our long absence. Sorry.
It's a hard road to take when you run a club (hence
BREATHE the lifestyle) and find
yourself unintentionally hurting other people's feelings in the process.

Yours,

Slutty Wife ;-*

[TNT]

Namely how do you swing and "play" while still honouring your relationship?
Does each part of a couple go into this willing to "pay a price" at the cost to their relationship for namely maintaining
a sexually open relationship? If so, in what way(s)? Do you find this gratifying?
How do you deal?

If not how do you keep close? Is there a lot of compromise going on
in order to maintain "happiness" in your relationship in order to make room for swinging?

In other words at the end of the day does "happy swinging" or the "happy state of your relationship" as a couple rule?

For us...our relationship comes first and foremost before anything else in our lives..always has, always will. Neither of us have ever paid any type of "price" to swing and never will.

Although swinging is a big part of our lives, it does not rule our lives. Ted and I are very, very protective of our time alone. There are numerous times that we turn down invitations to play for no other reason than we just want to be alone with each other.

The happy state of our relationship definitely rules.


Teresa

[Deptydog]

I can only speak for myself here as my wife has gone to bed. I will admit that I have had twinges of jealousy from time to time, but I had them when I was in a monogamous marriage as well. Are they magnified because we swing...I'd say no. We have the same ups and downs that any other couple has. We still argue about money and we laugh at the antics of our two Yorkshire Terriers. We cry together when someone close to us passes away, and we bask in the joy of a friends new birth.

I am sure of one thing though. Our communication level is much higher than "vanilla" couples that we know. We talk more and we listen more. We are also more in tune with what pleases our partner, both in bed and out of it.

In the last two years, we have witnessed the destruction of the marriage of a lifestyle couple we had become close to, and just today, I heard about another one that is coming to a close. But, on the same note, I have 4 uncles on my mothers side, and every one of them is divorced and remarried at least once. I myself am twice divorced before I met my bride. And I never even considered swinging until we were engaged.

[Islanders]

I'm new to swinging, and have only experienced having sex infront of someone else with my partner and having a female stripper play with both of us together, so i'm not sure if I'm qualified to properly answer this question. However, we have discussed the issues of swinging, and the possibility of jealousy a lot. Overall, I think the "Happy Relationship" is what matters the most, if either one of you are unhappy living this lifestyle all of a sudden, I think if you really respect and love each other at the end of day...then both of you will choose what will ultimately make each other happy.

[NakedInSeattle]

Too long to read all but I got the jist of it. WE are happy in our relationship AND we are happy swinging. Swinging in no way dishonors either of us individually or the relationship. It's just good clean fun with other like-minded folks. No love - just lust. No jealousy - just joy in seeing the other partner having fun. Come on, guys. If you have to analyse it, you ain't gonna enjoy it so stay away from swinging. MY $.02.

[good times]

I agree with the others above. This just reinforces my already low opinion of most experts.

[VegasLee]

You have to remember, the "Pro's" only see people once they are already messed up. What they said there is correct for the People that THEY see. Does not mean they are right about everyone.

Can people get messed up in the LIfestyle, oh hell yes. Mostly because they forget there is more to it then sex. Honesty, trust, openess and being sure they know that sex is NOT Love.

I read that article then all 84 of the posts that others made. Ya, I had to make my own post. It will give them something to talk about for a week or so. Most of those people have little to no life. I love entertaining them. Makes me feel like I have more of a purpose in life.

I have never experienced jealousy over Laura having sex with someone else. Don't get me started on her computer games though! Surrender

[intuition897]

Ohhhh yeah. I posted on that one. That article and comments from their panel of "experts" is just wrong on sooo many levels.

I don't know why this sort of thing pisses me off so royally. I mean, their opinions don't matter all THAT much to me. I guess it's the fact that what they are saying is JUST NOT TRUE, yet they're spreading that fertilizer around as if it were! And then others start to believe it, and then THEY start spreading the bullshit around. People actually listen to them. And I find that scary.

I find it very disturbing that smallness of mind is being preached out there as the ideal. "For the love of GOD, don't open your mind! Aaargh! You might start believing something different, and then all will be lost!" :rollseyes See, while I don't really care what others might do, as long as no one is being hurt or negatively impacted, it doesn't seem like that big a stretch to me to go from preachin' to persecutin'. And THAT I have a serious problem with. The whole damn thing is just mind boggling.

[sereneiders]

Well, first of all, I didn't read the entire article, I found the posters pretty prejudgamental for my taste as to keep reading.

Second, the article seems to reffer to open relationships more than swingers, and from the scratch they choose the word "cheat" to categorize what they do, even when later on they say it isn't cheating, but that seems to bias the discussion towards the importance of keeping the monogamy.

Namely how do you swing and "play" while still honouring your relationship?

OF COURSE! Moreover, I'd say we do it as a way to honor our relationship.

A key concept here is that every marriage have a particular commitment, wheter explicit or implicit.

The law reflects what the majority of the society (or at least, the ones who have the power to shape it) understand for this commitment, which includes particular conception of fidelity that could be traced back in history to the times where marriage was a deal between families, and IMHO, to symbolically reasure a male's legacy would be similar to female's one (mathernity is for sure, paternity isn't... unless enforced), and propose or enforce this common commitment as the ground for any marriage.

The fact is, the particular commitment every couple have may or may not fit the common comitment proposed by the rest of the society. When it doesn't, moreover in a way that threatens this symbolic reasuring, the society feels they have good motivations to become judgamental about this particular commitment.

As for us, we're commited to another definition of fidelity: for each one to be faithfull with his/her own feelings, toughts and beliefs. This means that, instead of enforcing our commitment by fitting to the rules the society claims to be the valid ones, we give each other the right to choose to enforce it, in such a way that when the other does so, it is because of the feelings we have and because we earned it, by means of taking our share of responsability regarding our commitments, by means of being extremelly respectfull with eachother, by means of taking care of eachother.

A marriage is something you build as time goes on, you make an investment that you and your spouse should appreciate. From our understandig of the fidelity concepts, this appreciation for each other investment and for the attitudes described before grows with time. Even when there are third ones that may provide someone of us something that the other spouse were not able to, such a third one hardly would be able to overcome this HUGE appreciation we have for each other. And if there were a third one able to overcome my wife appreciation for me after providing her whatever I cannot provide (better sex, a better laugh, a better understanding of her current problems, whatever it is), then I'd preffer that to happen NOW, as soon as possible, and not in let say, another 10 years.

Our particular ways creates certain dynamics inside our relationship that pushes each other, every day, to give our best to the other, to make it worth to be togheter and remain togheter. And as each one of us become more confident about the will and energy the other is up to put in the relationship, we are up to give the other time to take a rest from this effort.

For this to work this way, we have to grant a degree of freedom to eachother, in our very particular case, this freedom isn't limited to sex, but it may involve any feeling that a third one could awake.

We were togheter for 16 years, where we granted such a permission to "fool around" to each other, and the last 2 years when we started swinging because we felt and then found out that "fooling around" while being togheter was a pleasant turn on that enhanced our relationship even more (and by then, I didn't tought we needed to enhance anything, nor that it was possible to enhance what we already developed). The funny thing is that before swinging, I didn't fooled around even when having such a permission granted, and that's because the same dynamics ensured I didn't need to. And the same happens today: I do not need to swing, I like to do it, but if I ever feel swinging damages my relationship in any way, it wouldn't worth the price.

What we have today goes way beyond what most couples around us have, and that weights way more than any hypotetical argument someone may give to us to "proove" we'd be doing it even better by following the common commitment most of these couples have.

Now, it's worth to point out that I feel we're not the typical swinger couple. Most of them would be open to share their sexuality with third ones but not their feelings, while we're open to have poliamoral relationships, that indeed we already have and enjoyed without any motivation for regrets.

Does each part of a couple go into this willing to "pay a price" at the cost to their relationship for namely maintaining a sexually open relationship?
If so, in what way(s)? Do you find this gratifying?
How do you deal?

Yes, altough I believe it's not the price meant in the question.

As for us, the only price we paid was a "safety perception" about our relationship that we perceived as artificial, when you enforce fidelity inside a marriage. We had to "pay the price" of dealing with our own fears and insecurities, with the support and help we gave to each other to do it.

But I'd say "price" is the wrong word for that, a better one would be a "bet". We made a bet by giving up some selfish aspects and we won the bet, we "invested" (wich means we have costs whose "price to pay") to get a profit, and we're getting it, and the profit is HUGE.

If not how do you keep close? Is there a lot of compromise going on
in order to maintain "happiness" in your relationship in order to make room for swinging?

I think I am not properly understanding this question. Close to what? If you're talking about the feelings that others can bring by themselves and/or into our relationship after sharing our sexuality with them, I already answered, we don't keep close, nor want to.

The compromise is the one stated before, that comes from our fidelity conception, and the self imposed responsability to treasure and take care of keeping a healty relationship on a daily basis. It's an effort you may not see a vanilla couple compelled to make, thus, compared to them, there are a more expensive compromise here. I is in order to be happy, and this means a selfish concept of happiness: I take this compromise becahse she's the one who makes me happy, she take this compromise because I am the one who makes her happy. I do this for myself, she does it for helsef, so we made a machine fueled by our selfish feelings. And these feelings are the ones making room for swinging.

In other words at the end of the day does "happy swinging" or the "happy state of your relationship" as a couple rule?

YES! Not only rules... IT ROCKS!

[BradAndJanet]

I posted too....hee hee.

Why can't people just say, "Not for me!" and be done with it? Live and let live, I always say...

-B

[sexyshelby]

I don't think you can have "Happy Swinging" without a "Happy Relationship". Unless you are single. But as far a couple goes, swinging won't work without a good strong base and a very happy relationship.

~SS

PS Yeah, I posted too.

[WesternSwing]

After reading the article I'm pretty convinced that there is a huge confusion between swinging and "open marriages". Not all swingers have open marriages. To me "open marriage" means that both parties are free to date whomever they please whenever they please. Most swingers have sex with others as a couple activity, even if they play solo occasionally it is still the thrill that brings to the couple that makes them do it. "Open marriage" somehow denotes "replacement sex" or substituting for something missing in the primary relationship.

Namely how do you swing and "play" while still honouring your relationship?

We swing together, even if we set-up a solo play date for each other, as mentioned above it is something that adds excitement to our relationship, it is in no way replacement sex. In fact, if it wasn't for a technicality I'd say we are monogamous for we love and cherish each other and absolutely crave sex with each other, everything else is a couples activity done as icing on the cake. There is no "I" in "couple". It is done for us by us.

Does each part of a couple go into this willing to "pay a price" at the cost to their relationship for namely maintaining a sexually open relationship? If so, in what way(s)? Do you find this gratifying? How do you deal?

I would think one is only "paying a price" if they are being coerced into an open relationship, or swinging, being given an ultimatum that "we either do this or I will probably cheat on you". Much like the scenario of another recent post on this board. If both members are getting something positive out of it and there is no coercion or manipulation to do it, and it has positive effects on both partners in the marriage, then nobody is paying a price.

I put in another post the observation of a friend: "Swinging is like icing on a cake, but if the ingredients aren't there to make a solid cake you can't expect the frosting to hold it together."

If not how do you keep close? Is there a lot of compromise going on in order to maintain "happiness" in your relationship in order to make room for swinging?

In other words at the end of the day does "happy swinging" or the "happy state of your relationship" as a couple rule?

"Happy marriage" always rules for us. There have been times we've stepped back for awhile because we have not had enough "us" time do to all sorts of life stuff. Only when we feel fulfilled as a couple do we go back to swinging.

Our take is that that a great deal of consideration must be given to each other's comfort levels at any given moment and to those we choose to get sexually involved with. The health of "our" relationship being a good indicator of whether or not we choose to "swing" on any given night or period of time. In other words we should take care of each other first before sharing our
"love/sex" with others even if we find we are disappointing or a "let down"
to them. Swinging can get "sticky" at times and we've had many periods of
"time out" over the years. We feel "happy relationship" rules for us and are prepared to try and work at it. Right now we are trying to "work at it" again. Hence our long absence. Sorry. It's a hard road to take when you run a club (hence BREATHE the lifestyle) and find yourself unintentionally hurting other people's feelings in the process.

Yours,

Slutty Wife ;-*

Kind of wondered why you hadn't been around here much recently. Hope all is well with you two.

Mr. WS

[good times]

Like Lee, Intuition and brad, I couldn't leave it alone, and had to post there too.

[CuriosityKilt]

Excellent post and thanks for it!

Here is my take: Albeit one from the outside looking in. (Mostly)

Are swinging couples more/less happy than monogamous couples?

On average I'd say they're just as happy as any average couple. I would suggest the extremes are a bit greater though.

A swinging couple that does it right and for the right reasons gets to experience things monogamous couples don't. They get to fulfill otherwise off limit desires and reap the various rewards from them.

A swinging couple that does it for the wrong reasons probably exacerbates their (likely) already problematic relationship. This in turn adds new problems to the relationship, making it that much more difficult to work out their issues.

So I don't necessarily agree the risk versus reward factor isn't there. Sure you are risking more but you also stand to gain more and overall you are likely to end up where most couples are.

Of course, the views of patrons of this board will tend to be skewed but then they also tend to be more experienced.

[SluttyWife]

Kind of wondered why you hadn't been around here much recently. Hope all is well with you two.

Mr. WS

We are working on it! There have been more bad days than good ones
as of late. We even stopped breathing Internet around the clock.
Baby steps...I always say and I hope we get through this one.

;-*

Slutty Wife