Do Couples Make it harder on themselves?

[Spoomonkey]

Conclusion: married swingers are creating the very situations they complain about.

You know - I sat back - after the furor was over and reread this post... I have to say, I hope it isn't deleted...

To be honest - this is a good point - worth discussion. Do we as married swingers - those quite blessed in the world with wonderful marriages with lots of communication and trust - foster bitterness and the kind of vile that we have witness from supershadow?

Don't get me wrong - this guy is a pathetic loser, plain and simple - and in general his conclusions are those of an undersexed moron and simply drip with desperation and self-entitlement. He rightly earned our ridicule as the boxer-stain that he is. I sincerely hope that while he was banging away at his keyboard his obviously "under-married" wife was banging away at the gardener... To be married to such an ass, she deserves a good little lovin'... God knows he likely couldn't give it to her...

But - with that said - I wonder what real, sincere singles feel about this particular question - it is a good one. Do swinging couples, in their celebration of what they have, earn the disdain of those single men whom we are so often looking for? Do we set ourselves up for bad experiences and a piss-poor group of men to choose from because the decent, intellegent, mature singles out there aren't willing to put up with what they perceive as "gloating"?

After all the fireworks have settled down - after supershadow has gone back under his rock as it appears he may have - this is a good, positive question to ponder...

What do you think?

Spoomonkey

[JustAskJulie]

Good point Spoo, one that was unfortunately hard to address when buried underneath so much putridness.

Is it that there are so few decent REAL single guys? Or just that there are so few willing to jump through the hoops that couples force them through?

It's kinda like which came first the chicken or the egg? I don't know that there is an answer.

[TNT]

After reading the original post and all the responses to it, my ire was rasied as well. Then it occured to me that no matter what I wanted to say in response had already been said and even repeating it 1000 times would make no difference to the original poster as it is blantly apparent that he has NO CLUE whatsoever about anything regarding the swinging lifestyle and no desire to even learn about it.

The one thing I did find of interest was the comment that Spoomonkey pointed out.

Conclusion: married swingers are creating the very situations they complain about.

So, lets take what is obviously just an inflammatory post and trun it into one of intelligent, informative discussion.

On the lines of do couples create the things they complain about where single men are concerned? Probably, to some extent.

Because so many of us have strict rules about playing with single men, we could at times become very short with those who have no clue that it could almost become a habit when dealing with single men that we inadvertantly chase off those that would be good ones because we are so tired of dealing with the bad ones we never give the good ones a chance.

If I were a good single man that had never even been given the chance and was constantly attacked by couples I believe I too would eventually give up.

Teresa

[curiousagain]

There is a law of natural selection at work in all things. If to play with a couple a single has to jump through many hoops and put up with ridicule and mistreatment, the only singles hanging around for that are desparate ones. Correct me if I am wrong, but most coupes don't want desparate single men. But, couples often line these hoops up because they have been lied to and mistreated by guys like supershadow. So, that kind of puts us in the situation that Julie mentioned. "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

But, we all (couples and singles) have our rules for a reason and it is in our best interest not to break them. If you are an SLS member, do a search for certified single males. You might be surprised to find the ones with the most certifications (and yes I know that is not an accurate measure of how many couples/singles they have met) have the dreaded dic pics and the often ridiculed statements such as "I have 8 inches and can go all night". So, on one hand single males hear these are bad, but see the most "successful" single males act this way. Can you see where someone might be a little confused? We know the number of certifications is not relevant to the number of couples a single has played with, but newbies don't know that. Just as the actions of a few single men or married men posing as single men affects a lot of couples perceptions of single men, the actions of a few couples affects the single men's perceptions of couples.

I want to preface this next part with the clarification that I am not lumping everyone into these catagories. Please, don't anyone think I am talking about you unless of course you are guilty of it. But, there are some things I see that I just shake my head at and move on.

#1 Couples who don't have pics or at least face pics on their profile but state that any singles that contact them must send a face pic or the email will be deleted. Why?? Do you think your wife is so hot we will give up our discretion?

#2 Couples that have close ups of their genitals on their profiles, but deride any single male sending dic pics. Can you say confusing double standard? I know, the close ups may not be the only thing on their profile, but remember we are talking about confusing newbies.

#3 Couples who insist on respect from the single male but then treat the single male as a trained seal and expect them to like it. Not in this lifetime, thank you very much

#4 Couples that demand a certain size or minimum number of copulations per encounter. Hmmm, sounds more like an advertisement for a porn star. I hope they don't get mad when the applicant acts like a prima donna or acts like he is doing them a favor or just there for the sex.

#5 Just as this supershadow guy expects if he goes to a club and pays to get in he is "owed" sex by every female there, some couples act as if since they are offering a single male sex they are owed sex in whatever way, shape, form,or time they demand. Does a couple really want a single man without self respect and so deparate he will do anything? Ok, some do, but most don't.

#6 Couples that entice their prospective playmates with graphic photos of the female in not erotic but pornographic poses and that show her having sex with many different partners or several at a time then complain that people are emailing them acting as though she is just an easy piece. I assume these people rode the short bus to school. The average guy who has never been in the lifestyle and only has what he has heard about it to go on would think that.

#7 Couples who advertise straight but then want the single male to engage in bisexual or homosexual activity. Hmm and they listed honesty as one of the things they were looking for in prospective playmates.

#8 Couples who contact you and want you to show up at tonight at a certain motel room at a certain time "ready to be pleased". Provided they aren't a fake, do they really expect decent treatment from singles who would do that?

Can you see where a single guy might get a little confused as how to act??? Sure, there are single guys who are buttwipes but there are some who are great people, they are just confused and some of that confusion is brought on by the way SOME couples have treated them. Yes, we singles gripe about being painted with a broad brush by couples but some singles paint couples with a broad brush too. It goes back to a few couples ruining it for all of the other couples.

I have read numerous complaints by couples that a single male tried to get the female to meet him without the male. Why would they expect that? In 25% (I did the math this morning) of the couples I have played with, the female has asked me to meet her without her husband. I refused. But, if I was a sneaky little lowlife, cheating bastard like some people are..........
So it goes back to some of these singles have had that experience and they assume others will do it to. BTW, I did not play with those couples again. I don't need the drama thank you very much.

Anyway, I think it is often a case of a few ruining it for the rest on "both sides" We just have to look at each couple or single as an individual case, but some people don't do that.

Have to go to work.
Later

[JustAskJulie]

Wow, I think that Spoo and CuriousAgain did something we rarely see, they turned a troll post into a very good discussion on a topic we haven't really broached in the past.

Kudos guys, I hope more will weigh in their thoughts on this.

[WesternSwing]

Wow, I think that Spoo and CuriousAgain did something we rarely see, they turned a troll post into a very good discussion on a topic we haven't really broached in the past.

Kudos guys, I hope more will weigh in their thoughts on this.

I agree, their insight has taken this post a new direction. I think that in some aspects maybe couples can create the monster they want to destroy, BUT other then the crotch and pornographic pics CuriousAgain speaks of, I think most couples fall into the minority of the rest of CA's points. I have a hard time believing that the actions of 20% of the couples are creating the bad 80% of single males.

I do think that some outlets such porn influence it (as mentioned in another post of mine recently). When you look at how group sex is treated in porn (the woman is always horny to fuck multiple guys, anyone, anytime, anywhere) and the number of spam mails that come through my spam filter everyday for "cheating wives caught on tape" and "cheating MILF's want to meet you tonight", I can see where the uninitiated single male could definitely get the wrong impression of what this is all about. So, I think the porn industry, more so than couples, have created this monster.

Mr. WS

[Spoomonkey]

CuriousA

Thanks for the excellent - well thought out response! That is one post that could easily be turned into a "must read" article for couples.

I think we far too often take forgranted how we treat single men in our pursuit of the excitement that the lifestyle affords. This is sort of what I was getting at when I started my post about what rules isngles have, but this has sort of brought the issue out in a more powerful way...

Thanks!

Spoomonkey

[robnbarb]

OK first, The guy at the begining is obviously a troll with no respect for women. To him they are not people with ideas, thoughts and feelings but just objects to play with and toss away at his lesure. He talks big about demanding respect, but gives none. To get respect you must give it as well.

Which brings me to the real issue of the thread resepct from both singles and couples. Think about dateing a moment, wehave all met jerks in that prosess. It stands to reason that some of these jerks got together with another jerk and made a jerk off couple. Sad but true, I think there is the problem with the couples that curious was talking about, they are just jerks.

I suppose that it would seem on the surface that men in general have a wider population of jerks. Just in the vanilla world I can think of twice as many jerk men as I can women, but both are there. But I think also that the male tendency of agrressiveness makes them stick out more. Most of the jerk females I have met, I was not aware they were jerks until getting to know them a bit, Males on the other hand almost broadcast it with a few exceptions. I honestly believe this boils down to the nature of both sexes. I could be way off base, but it is a thought or two to ponder.

[curiousagain]

You make two excellent points WS. The first being that 20% of the couples aren't causing 80% of the single guys to act like jerks. But, what I was trying in my wordy, ham handed attempt was to state that some of the few good single guys could be confused.

The second point about the porn industry was kinda odd as just today a friend told me he couldn't stand to watch porn any more because all of it he had seen lately was so disrespectful to women and showed what he felt was abusive behavior to women. I too get some of that spam and you're right, there is an awful lot of it lately advertising "cheating wives" etc. food for thought for sure. You see, with the porn examples and locker room talk
and such, most singles who are on the outside looking in at the swing community have a distorted image of what it is. There's a thought, those couples wanting a good single to swing with could pick a newbie with promise who doesn't act like a jerk and "initiate and mentor" him into the swing community. I know, there aren't that many, but keep looking!!!


I was extremely fortunate in that my first couple was very understanding and patient with me and are madly in love with each other. I remain friends with them today. They are quite capable of separating sex and love and explaining the hows and whys of it. They were my first examples of a swinging couple and sort of "raised me right" into the swinging community. The majority of couples I have met are that way, but if a few of the couples I have met had
been my first ones, I would never have stayed with swinging.


I am friends with a few couples in the lifestyle and these are people you would be glad to know as friends and I hear about the behavior of the average "single male" (put in parentesis cause it could be a supershadow wannabe). Trust me, I have been too mad to talk a couple of times. Partly because it increases the stereotype of the single male but mostly because these couples don't deserve to be treated like this. These jerk guys see the couples for what they want them to be, not what they are. Hey Shadow, maybe one of those couples you see as a hypocrite because they
shun you is a couple I am friends with. You know what? I know them as people. They raise their kids, they work hard, they volunteer in the community. They are there as friends for me and me for them.

Just as some have said that to see what the average swinger looks like stand in the mall for ten minutes and watch everybody that goes by and you will see the types of people who swing. Well, I must admit that to get the same effect for single males you have to stand outside a local bar for ten minutes. If all single males are treated as guilty of being jerks until proven innocent, then the innocent ones won't hang around long. The "good guys" aren't desperate for sex and aren't going to jump through numerous flaming hoops unless they are really into threesomes/foursomes, hmmm, maybe that
is a good thing. So many things to think about.

To the real single males. Remember that couples are just average people with the same kinks as you. No more, no less.

And, to the couples, as I have said, I am very much aware of the behavior of the average "single male" and I abhor it. But, to those couples that think ALL couples are blameless, you need to look around. If they were not and never had been part of a swinging couple, the majority of men in swinging would be immediatly put in the catagory of "jerk single guys."

I guess in a nutshell if you don't want to hear from single men, block them online and don't go to clubs that let them in. By simply treating all single men badly you are making it difficult for the couples that want to meet them. If you do want to meet single men, be aware of what you will have to do to weed through the bad.

And to the fakes, pic collectors, and supershadows of the world. Bloody well bugger off.

[DandK]

Oh my. After reading all this I HAD to post a reply. I find it interesting that the original poster barely speaks of his 'wife', if he does in fact have one. He goes on and on about single men. Well there are a few reasons why single men get bad reps in the swinging community.

1- Most couples are more comfortable playing with other COUPLES. When they want a single male OR female, they will look for that. Don't assume that all couples fuck every couple they meet. Nor will they always want or be comfortable with having a single or single-posing-as-married male join them.

2- Alot of single men will try and join a swingers club looking for the 'free' single female members as if it was a dating service. Single women are usually allowed in free IMHO because they are usually bi or bi-curious. Unless I am wrong with that conclusion, they are then more open to joining a couple.

3- And if you rally have a problem with swingers being BIASED, why the hell are you still spending your $ trying to get into them??????? Go look for a discreet encounter online with a single female and see if she has a friend to join you 2. You might get more play that way.

4- Also this seems more like a troll posting or a pissed off 'hubby' who can't please his 'mrs' at home and would rather cheat than talk to his wife and find out why she isn't happy. I mean we haven't seen a pic or had a description of you. Maybe she finds you unnattractive now...... With your attitude towards couples, I can't really blame her. LOL Been marreied to a man just like you so I should know. LMAO



Just my $0.02!! soapbox

[BiloxiCouple]

Respect is a two way streak.

If I had this conversation that was originally going on here, I probaby would have walked away from it. Especially if I was in a lifestyle situation.

I swing with my spouse. If we want to involve anyone (single, married or whatever), that is strictly up to us. Ours swinging is for us not anyone else.
That is the nitty-gritty bottom line. If we want to swing with you or not deal with you at all that is our right. Kind of redundant?

We've all made mistakes, even in the lifestyle. I have made my share. Like never open the door and let someone else in who wasn't in the room to begin with. That one has bugged me for the last year. Sorry. I didn't show respect then to the other people.

This Supershadow appears not to respect the people around him. So I won't deal with him or give him respect. But maybe we can learn to identify the signs of this type of personality and deal with it in our own way.

[curious24]

Is it that there are so few decent REAL single guys? Or just that there are so few willing to jump through the hoops that couples force them through?

I've always thought and said that finding a nice single guy is like trying to find that bi single female.

[curious24]

I do think that some outlets such porn influence it (as mentioned in another post of mine recently). When you look at how group sex is treated in porn (the woman is always horny to fuck multiple guys, anyone, anytime, anywhere) and the number of spam mails that come through my spam filter everyday for "cheating wives caught on tape" and "cheating MILF's want to meet you tonight", I can see where the uninitiated single male could definitely get the wrong impression of what this is all about. So, I think the porn industry, more so than couples, have created this monster.

Are people really this stupid to believe spam? I get a lot of that crap too but I guess I'm smart enough to realize the obvious. But seriously do you think anyone is really that dumb? hmmm...

I shudder to think.

[curious24]

I suppose that it would seem on the surface that men in general have a wider population of jerks. Just in the vanilla world I can think of twice as many jerk men as I can women, but both are there. But I think also that the male tendency of agrressiveness makes them stick out more. Most of the jerk females I have met, I was not aware they were jerks until getting to know them a bit, Males on the other hand almost broadcast it with a few exceptions. I honestly believe this boils down to the nature of both sexes. I could be way off base, but it is a thought or two to ponder.

It's funny how a lot of the women tend to migrate to the "jerks." From my experience and observations the women who go for the "jerk" and then finally realize what they have been doing then want the "nice" guy. But by the time they come around the "nice" guy has become the jerk because he has been jaded so many times that he doesn't put up with the crap that some women do.

I consider myself a "nice" guy. However, I don't roll over when a woman does something crazy. My theory is that all women are crazy, it's just where on the crazy scale do they fall. Some are more crazy than others. With men they are all morons. It's just where on the moron scale do they fall. Then it's up to you how much you are willing to put up with. Lately I have been telling women that I start seeing that I'm tired of all this crazy crap I keep running into. I don't put up with it anymore. I've written a book on this site about my last relationship, needless to say the woman I was seeing went crazy on me! The last 5 women I've seen have gone crazy on me. I just make it a point to let my partner know that I don't do crazy anymore.

Anyway, my point for all of this is as I get older (and it maybe the same for other single guys out there) the less I put up with from someone else and one could say the more of a "jerk" I become.

[curious24]

Respect is a two way streak.

I totally agree with this. I've had some really rude couples not understand why I as a single male didn't want to meet them. They wouldn't stop bothering me so I had to just ignore them and or block them all together.