Can women really have casual sex without attachments?

[JandL]

There is an email list that Berman and Berman allow you to sign up for. And being the curious type we are we read their sexual health articles once in a while.

A recent email contained the following:

The Chemistry of Attachment

We've been fed a steady diet of Sex and the City and single-woman sexual empowerment. But can women really have casual sex like men?
Our evolutionary background suggests that the deck is stacked against us. When girl meets boy (and girl likes boy), the brain releases a chemical love cocktail: Dopamine produces feelings of bliss, norepinephrine makes the heart race, and we are driven to want sex. Then, during sex, the brain triggers the release of oxytocin — the warm fuzzy of the hormone world — which leaves us wanting to bond with the person we've just done the horizontal mambo with. These are primitive urges that have helped ensure the survival of our species.

The problem is that oxytocin may have a more powerful effect on women, at least initially. The theory is that testosterone (which men have more of) turns off oxytocin, making women more sensitive to oxytocin's effects. So although you may intellectually and even emotionally approach sex with a no-strings-attached attitude, these primal brain circuits can override the decision.

Of course, brain chemistry cannot explain everything and there are times when recreational sex is just that — recreational. However, as anthropologist Helen Fisher puts it, be careful about having sex with people you don't want to fall in love with — because you may end up doing just that!

What are your thoughts on this?

[kittylikesmfm]

I could not agree more; looks like you got your physiology straight.

i think that the idea of women behaving like men sexually is ludicrous. not to say we can't enjoy or never have anonymous sex, but on a regular basis it's not something a women is going to do unless there's an underlying psychological reason [sic] unhappy with available males for relationship purposes..which i think was the general idea of sex and the city except for samantha's character.

i have always loved anais nin's stories because one of the topics she explores often is what anonymous sex means to women...specifically the sex..not really social or physical or to a relationship repercussions. she shows loving it, to confusion, to disliking it.

i know that for me engaging in a sexual act with someone i barely know is about as enjoyable as masturbating, and considering the risk, not worth it. but 'barely knowing someone' is relative too; i mean there are charming, brilliant people out there that you talk to for a few hours and feel like you've known for years.

great topic !

[DBL D]

Personally, I think it's all just a matter of training.

M.D.

[DBL D]

Also if this were true, No man could ever be faithful...unless he had less testosterone than average. I mean, what makes a guy want to settle down...ever?

If we are going to live in a fantasy world (as far as the general population thinks) such as allows us to have sexual relations with others, then normal behaviour has no place there because it's not part of the fantasy. I think women are just as able to have wonderful sex with someone they just met and not want to see them again as a male might, but that isn't the normal way society thinks.

Just one other way that swingers are different and can't be compared to the average joe.

Male D

[intuition897]

Men and women ARE different, there's no getting around that. But I have to wonder if their theory still holds true when applied to people who truly have separated love from sex? Mr. intuition and I have both had sex with other partners - in separate rooms even, where the risks of 'bonding' might be increased - and we felt nothing more than the warm fuzzies of friendly, playful affection and respect. Perhaps some swingers lean toward being emotionally detached, but while we don't have any desire to become deeply involved in their lives, we rather enjoy the intimate glimpse into the lives of strangers. Having sex with people is sort of like being invited into a strangers home for dinner. They're not asking you to move in or anything! But they want to extend their hospitality to you and enjoy the pleasure of your company for an evening. Anything more than this feels intrusive. Suffocating even. But maybe this theory explains why we've found it so difficult to find long-term couples to play with. Maybe there is a tendency to become too attached?

[DBL D]

I know that men and women are different, but I was just thinking the same thing about the warm fuzzies and leaving it there. Truly though, that wouldn't promote any long term relationships. Lot's of swingers do it that way. If that was our only choice I don't think we'd find things nearly as interesting. People are interesting and when you find a couple that blows your minds, you'll want to see them again and again. We don't have a problem with saying that we've had a number of "nice" times with folks but we haven't met our match yet, or at least enough to stop looking. We don't want to become intimately attached to their lives but like the fact that we know that they are thinking of us even if we can't see each other for a while.

So back to this being a chemical thing. Don't you think that education plays a huge role in changing how a lady relates to sexual activity and a man? I think training your mind and body to be free sexually, and still know that someone holds you dear, is something special and different from society. Chemicals may be involved but it's not as much as some think, otherwise there would be no hope...no successful swinging.

Male D

[kittylikesmfm]

absolutely..that's what makes this such a great topic...this is nothing but shades of gray.

[JandL]

Originally Posted by intuition897

and we felt nothing more than the warm fuzzies of friendly, playful affection and respect.

This statement really stands out to me. They showed a lot of proof of chemical reactions for so called "bonding". But what if they are nothing but warm fuzzies?

My wife and I are deeply in love. But to say that love was something that was created the first time we were in the sack would be ridiculous. I am not sure when this "lifelong love" began, I'm sure it was somewhere between the 6 month to 3 year area. Maybe it never began and it's like a snowball rolling.

But I think the love we experience now is nothing related to that initial bonding. Maybe successful swingers just have a natural resistance to snowball rolling, and never let it progress further than warm fuzzies.

[janaandjames]

interesting post.
ive written a bit about our "regular" we had for awhile for MFM ... the reason he quit being our "regular" was the emotions.
i really hated it, but i found myself falling in love with him, and he with me ... you cant have sex with someone every week without getting some emotional attachment going on.
i felt i was in love with two men, it was strange. Hubby was No.1, that was never threatened,, but there was no denying the emotional loving type feelings toward the other guy.

but it was the other man who stopped, he felt he was getting too close to us as well. it was a painful "breakup" for me.

so i can see that in the article.

certainly an interesting subject.
anyone else develop too much emotion for a playmate?

jana

[kittylikesmfm]

i think the suggestion is that for women to create the proverbial wet spots there have to be some warm fuzzies..lol. this article is suggesting women like those prior to the poke. not suggesting that there's some involved romance, but that the sex, for women, is initiated by an attraction beyond 'gee, we have interlocking parts' or 'gee, we both have tongues' , where for men..lol..sorry guys, but it seems to be that simple.

but it's well accepted that all female mammals [sic: species, not individuals] take a conservative approach to procreation out of necessity. nothing any of us say alters scientifically proven biology.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by JandL

This statement really stands out to me. They showed a lot of proof of chemical reactions for so called "bonding". But what if they are nothing but warm fuzzies?

My wife and I are deeply in love. But to say that love was something that was created the first time we were in the sack would be ridiculous. I am not sure when this "lifelong love" began, I'm sure it was somewhere between the 6 month to 3 year area. Maybe it never began and it's like a snowball rolling.

But I think the love we experience now is nothing related to that initial bonding. Maybe successful swingers just have a natural resistance to snowball rolling, and never let it progress further than warm fuzzies.

This is interesting. When you think about it, maybe the question isn't that people are influenced by their biochemistry (which is undeniable), but just how affected they are by it? This is where maturity would come in to play.

I know somene is a serial monogamist. She's a love junkie who has no qualms about screwing around with two men at once...and she prefers it that way I think. When the buzz has worn off of her latest infatuation, she picks a fight and/or finds something wrong with him and dumps him, usually in the most dramatic way possible. She'll agonize over her decision for months about whether or not she should go back to him. We've told her about our lifestyle and she was disgusted. But this is a woman who is a slave to her biochemistry. She says she can't have an orgasm without being "in love" (her words). To be fair, she is not a mentally stable person and she has serious problems with depression, among other things. I don't know how much of that is self-induced, genetic, environmental... All I know is what I see. Perhaps I'm too unsympathetic in her case (I have no experience with chronic depression), but I just see such a lack of maturity here that I'm just dumbfounded.

Originally Posted by kittylikesmfm

i think the suggestion is that for women to create the proverbial wet spots there have to be some warm fuzzies..lol. this article is suggesting women like those prior to the poke. not suggesting that there's some involved romance, but that the sex, for women, is initiated by an attraction beyond 'gee, we have interlocking parts' or 'gee, we both have tongues' , where for men..lol..sorry guys, but it seems to be that simple.

Maybe I've got too much testosterone floating around in my system or something, but I've found myself thinking sexual thoughts about men who, frankly, I have no reason to be attracted to. They are SOOO not my type, and nothing else about them is attractive to me except that they have compatible body parts. They are male, I am female. Period. And even while I am thinking these sexual thoughts, I'm sort of going, "Ewwww!" Very strange and confusing.

[curiousagain]

Originally Posted by intuition897

I know somene is a serial monogamist. She's a love junkie who has no qualms about screwing around with two men at once...and she prefers it that way I think. When the buzz has worn off of her latest infatuation, she picks a fight and/or finds something wrong with him and dumps him, usually in the most dramatic way possible. She'll agonize over her decision for months about whether or not she should go back to him. We've told her about our lifestyle and she was disgusted. But this is a woman who is a slave to her biochemistry. She says she can't have an orgasm without being "in love" (her words). To be fair, she is not a mentally stable person and she has serious problems with depression, among other things. I don't know how much of that is self-induced, genetic, environmental... All I know is what I see. Perhaps I'm too unsympathetic in her case (I have no experience with chronic depression), but I just see such a lack of maturity here that I'm just dumbfounded.



Maybe I've got too much testosterone floating around in my system or something, but I've found myself thinking sexual thoughts about men who, frankly, I have no reason to be attracted to. They are SOOO not my type, and nothing else about them is attractive to me except that they have compatible body parts. They are male, I am female. Period. And even while I am thinking these sexual thoughts, I'm sort of going, "Ewwww!" Very strange and confusing.

I don't think you have too much testosterone (unless you're having to shave your face and you have this overwhelming urge to scratch balls that aren't there). I think you have learned to separate sex and love. We all know someone like your friend and they rarely change. What often confuses them is if they have good sex (have orgasms) they THINK they are in love with that person because they believe for some reason you have to be in love with someone to enjoy sex or you are a slut. I have met girls that are quite able to have sex without falling in love and I didn't see any signs of excessive testosterone in any of them. I have also met those that just because the sex was good they thought they were in love or wanted to try to have a relationship just because the sex was good. A lot of a person's attitude toward sex may very well be genetic or hormonal but I think the majority of it is learned.

[WesternSwing]

This is a good topic. I've seen Mrs. WS get more attached to those we play with then I. To me it is more like a one night stand. To her it is more of a friendship, almost quasi-poly sometimes. In the beginning I see her get "crushes" on some men. The paragraph:

When girl meets boy (and girl likes boy), the brain releases a chemical love cocktail: Dopamine produces feelings of bliss, norepinephrine makes the heart race, and we are driven to want sex. Then, during sex, the brain triggers the release of oxytocin — the warm fuzzy of the hormone world — which leaves us wanting to bond with the person we've just done the horizontal mambo with.

holds very true with Mrs. WS. At first this was a real jealousy issue for me, but with time and experience I've come to accept it as how Mrs. WS is adn I'm not threatened anymore. In fact it gives me something to playfully tease her about. Sometimes I wish I could be more like that, but alas I'm not wired that way.

Mr. WS

[curiousagain]

From Askmen.com

Ever wonder why you fall dead asleep or get a rush of self-confidence right after you have an orgasm? It's because of endorphins, oxytocin and other substances that are released into your bloodstream upon "liftoff."
There are a host of sexual chemicals that affect your mind and body during and after sex. Check 'em out.

Prolactin
What it does: Prolactin relieves sexual arousal after orgasm and takes your mind off sex. It rises sharply immediately after orgasm in almost everyone. It's one of the few moments of the day when we men aren't preoccupied with sex.

How it makes you feel: Prolactin disengages you from sex after an orgasm, allowing you to think of other things besides the naked woman right in front of you. If after sex your mind is flooded with activities and chores you need to accomplish that day, that is prolactin at work. Just imagine how much more progress we could all make in our lives if they pumped this stuff into the water supply.



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Oxytocin
What it does: Secreted by the pituitary gland, oxytocin stimulates the prostate, causes muscle contractions and sensitizes nerves. Research has shown that increased oxytocin produces more intense orgasms.
How it makes you feel: Oxytocin is known as the "cuddling hormone" because it causes you to feel a connection and bond with your lover. It's also found in women's breast milk, helping to create a bond between baby and mother.

If you enjoy cuddling with your girl after sex, chances are you know the effects of oxytocin well.



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Endorphins
What they do: Endorphins are a group of neurotransmitters formed within the body that bind to opiate receptor sites in your brain to naturally relieve pain. The bio-chemicals acetylcholine and dopamine are known as endorphins, and have a similar chemical structure to morphine. They are also known to lower stress and boost confidence.
How they make you feel: Endorphins produce feelings of euphoria and pleasure, and they have a calming effect. They fill you with a sense of well-being and relaxation. They may also make you feel dizzy and drowsy, and you might even drift off to sleep. Doctors have suggested that over-stimulation of the opiate receptors, as with heroin use, causes a depressed sex drive.

So next time your woman hassles you over passing out post-sex, you know it's the endorphins at work. In fact, you can even argue that the faster you fall asleep, the better the sex was.

Of note, endorphins are released by your brain during sex, sporting activities, skydiving, fights, grievous injuries, and almost any other exhilarating activity you partake in.

Get your adrenaline, among other things, pumping..

Adrenaline (also known as epinephrine)
What it does: Adrenaline activates the sympathetic nervous system, which increases your heart rate and dilates arteries to increase blood flow to your muscles during sex. It also causes a refractory period in which another orgasm is impossible for up to 20 minutes after sex. During intercourse, increased amounts of adrenaline are released from the adrenal glands. This chemical amplifies the circulatory system with each heart contraction.

How it makes you feel: Adrenaline makes you feel exhilarated and makes your heart feel like it's pounding out of your chest.



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Phenylethylamine
What it does: Phenylethylamine triggers the release of dopamine in the pleasure centers of the brain. This chemical is released during sex and peaks at orgasm. Curiously, it is also one of the chemicals found in chocolate.
How it makes you feel: You are overwhelmed with feelings of bliss, attraction and excitement.



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Testosterone
What it does: Testosterone fuels sexual drive and aggression. It is essential to your libido and sexual arousal. Men (and women) with a testosterone deficiency often have trouble getting aroused and have a lower interest in sex.
How it makes you feel: In short, you feel turned on and sexually virile. And if you've noticed a rush of confidence after sex, that could be increased testosterone at work.



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Serotonin
What it does: Serotonin regulates your moods. Having an orgasm releases an extra shot of serotonin to your brain, which acts as an anti-depressant.
How it makes you feel: You feel cheerful, hopeful, emotionally balanced, and content. Most clinical anti-depression medications pump up serotonin levels in your brain.


it's the natural high

Some people go to great lengths to get drugs, but why bother when these active chemicals are just waiting to be released in your body? Having an orgasm is like getting high. By releasing a myriad of substances into your bloodstream, you are altering your brain and body functions.
Orgasms involve a complex interaction between three systems of the body: the vascular system, the nervous system, and the endocrine system. They are so complicated that it's a miracle that they happen at all. So enjoy them and remember to have as many as possible.

Resources:
www.tiscali.co.uk
www.findarticles.com
www.popsci.com
http://www.coolnurse.com/orgasm_female.htm
www.actionlove.com


The oxytocin thing has me wondering. I wonder if that is released with emotions too. I know I like cuddling with someone I love or really really like. But, in a swing/strictly FB situation, cuddling is the last thing on my mind.

[Tempest419]

Originally Posted by intuition897

This is interesting. When you think about it, maybe the question isn't that people are influenced by their biochemistry (which is undeniable), but just how affected they are by it? This is where maturity would come in to play.

I know somene is a serial monogamist. She's a love junkie who has no qualms about screwing around with two men at once...and she prefers it that way I think. When the buzz has worn off of her latest infatuation, she picks a fight and/or finds something wrong with him and dumps him, usually in the most dramatic way possible. She'll agonize over her decision for months about whether or not she should go back to him. We've told her about our lifestyle and she was disgusted. But this is a woman who is a slave to her biochemistry. She says she can't have an orgasm without being "in love" (her words). To be fair, she is not a mentally stable person and she has serious problems with depression, among other things. I don't know how much of that is self-induced, genetic, environmental... All I know is what I see. Perhaps I'm too unsympathetic in her case (I have no experience with chronic depression), but I just see such a lack of maturity here that I'm just dumbfounded.

Maybe I've got too much testosterone floating around in my system or something, but I've found myself thinking sexual thoughts about men who, frankly, I have no reason to be attracted to. They are SOOO not my type, and nothing else about them is attractive to me except that they have compatible body parts. They are male, I am female. Period. And even while I am thinking these sexual thoughts, I'm sort of going, "Ewwww!" Very strange and confusing.

Depression as it runs in the women in my family... in particular my sister is manic-depressive. My grandmother, depressed for twenty+ years. I have had mild to moderate depression over the years. It is very misunderstood, and to be fair it doesn't sound like you have a lot of sympathy for this person! Your friend is likely not trying to absolve herself of her responsibility, she is simply not aware of her patterns. Mood and hormones are inextricably locked, and who knows why one person does really well in the seratonin & dopamine dept, while others do not? My husband's family have big thighs... I don't. Genetics play a role in everything about you... And while I don't argue that it is possible to contact and take the reigns of your subconscious and therefore control the involuntary responses of your body (it's been done)... it takes many years of meditative practice. Telling yourself something doesn't change it or make it so, it's just a start. Just b/c you know something doesn't mean you'll act on it. For instance... you know you're attracted to these guys with interlocking body parts, you know it's a little strange (even you're confused by it) and yet, can you explain it? If you can't explain it... perhaps it's your hormones and/or subconscious!

I bet your friend has all kinds of skeletons in the closet (sexual abuse, etc) that you may not know about. I feel sorry for her... she does not intend to hurt herself all the time, I doubt it is self-induced, and it doesn't appear anyone has ever tried to help her find some self-help tools. I would venture to guess... does she also have a big ego? Yep... that can also be a symptom. I might even guess she is manic-depressive since she goes through highs with the guys. The problem with depression is that it doesn't necessarily show itself like those commercials where you're sobbing all the time and can't drag yourself out of bed... that's more clinical. Mine showed itself in excessive anxiety, insomnia, etc. It can come out in risky behavior... it is also very likely for people with low seratonin & dopamine levels to seek out situations that will raise these hormones... perhaps just by being swingers you might have low levels of these hormones!

Okay sorry for the part from topic... but I hope that if anyone remembers anything important about depression is is that depression is anger turned inward.

Also, I think some of the folks who responded missed the point, which was that repeated sexual activity or long-term partners will likely lead to emotions, that is linked to all those yummy hormone highs they keep giving you. For those of you who haven't gotten attached, how long did you keep the same partners? My guess is that the smart, trained swingers are switching partners regularly.

PS... Prolactin is also instrumental in milk production. I have always had a high prolactin count.

And right on Kitty.... as a general rule, sex with a stranger might as well be a masturbation session at home... at least I know I'll have an orgasm,

~T