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frisson

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  1. We did check out your site, and noticed the following line: "maybe if your a local guy that has a hot girl to trade, post on the message board" This sounds like something that might have been written by a "wife-swapper" back in 1958. If your idea of swinging is trading females, then you will not do very well among swingers, whatever their age. Women basically have both the first and last word in swinging. They have their own fun in their own way, with partners whom they choose, and you will be laughed out of the building if you approach them as a commodity to be traded.
  2. I'm not going to address your religiously-based antagonism to open relationships, because arguing belief systems is tedious and almost always a waste of time. However, I will note that if you believe that what we're doing is wrong, then you've picked a curious place to spend your time. Regarding the question of guilt, you are correct: religion is not the sole source of guilt. Any authority figure can induce guilt. However, those who have been brought up in the Judaeo-Christian religious traditions seem to be especially susceptible to feeling guilty, because that system so frequently uses guilt as a behavior-shaping mechanism. After a while, guilt becomes almost reflexive. I am not clear what you mean about hardwired guilt. If you're suggesting that a sense of right and wrong about certain sexual practices is genetically encoded within us, that's preposterous. If that were the case, then sexual behavior and sexual morality would be more or less consistent from one society to another, because we know that genetically-based urges are almost impossible to overcome. But cultural anthropology tells us that many if not most primitive societies are sexually promiscuous--guiltlessly and naturally promiscuous. That's one reason why these societies were so abhorrent to the Christian missionaries who first encountered them because they clearly suggested that there is no universal sense of sexual morality, and that sexual guilt and shame is not a natural condition. Guilt and shame are rational concepts. They are learned; therefore they can be unlearned. Most of us here know that first hand. I would go so far as to say that nobody who has ever truly questioned the basis of his sexual morality would ever suggest that his sexual guilt is innate. Sexual guilt and shame may seem almost natural to someone who is steeped in Judaeo-Christian morality, but if it were natural it would not be so readily undone by the simple act of rejection.
  3. I think the reason everybody is focusing on the jealousy issue is that jealousy will ruin a relationship (yes even a strong one) if it is not dealt with. Guilt, on the other hand, may cause one partner some sleepless nights, but it probably won't threaten the marriage by itself. You don't say exactly what it is you are guilty about. Without knowing that, it's hard to give any advice on how to deal with it. Are you guilty about doing something that society and most religions consider taboo? If so, then you are just running into the effects of five decades of social shaping. It's to be expected, especially when you plunge into the lifestyle at warp speed. (Not saying that disapprovingly). Best of luck.
  4. This is a great observation. Our approach to swinging has been with a series of partners, never forming a deep relationship with any of them, and we have never had a problem worth talking about, in five-plus years. I think we have been pretty good about sensing and avoiding potential trouble, and there has probably been an element of luck involved as well. But I do think that a lot of it is due to the fact that we swing only in situations where nobody has any expectations beyond the moment. Anyway, to answer the original question, it has definitely been all positive for us. We got into swinging mainly to open up our relationship, to rid ourselves of jealousy, and to have some memorable thrills along the way, and it has paid off for us on all counts. Two big thumbs up here.
  5. If this was through a contact ad then we wouldn't bother. If we had met at a club and the vibes were right--i.e. we believed both of you were sincere and whole-hearted about playing--then your lack of experience wouldn't matter.
  6. Regarding deaths directly due to Viagra, the single risk factor worth mentioning is the interaction with organic nirtates (nitroglycerin, etc.) which are prescribed for relief from angina pectoris. When the two drugs are taken together, they cause a significant drop in systemic blood pressure. That's because both drugs work by dilating blood vessels. This interaction is probably the sole reason that Viagra is not or ever will be an over-the-counter med. Keeping it restricted allows physicians to screen for nitrate use. You can be sure that since Pfizer owns the drug patent, the company would like the pills to be as widely available as possible. As to deaths caused by cardiac arrest during sex, those deaths were probably waiting to happen any time the man exerted himself. Men are going to try to have sex, Viagra or no. Trying to have sex with a "semi" erection can be as great an exertion as having sex with a reliable erection, with perhaps the added risk factor of anxiety and mental stress. Our M half is in the exact same situation. It is probably more mental than anything else, but a dosage in the 25-35 mg range keeps it from being an issue. He bought 30 100mg pills about two and a half years ago, and still has about half of them. The only problem is that pill cutters don't do a very good job of cleanly halving half-pills, but he basically gets about three doses per pill.
  7. Great topic, too bad it hasn't gotten more of a response. We were talking about it again last night and decided that swinging in the last couple of years has turned into a Hedonism (resort) concept--something really intended more for the occasional thrill-seekers and the dabblers rather than those who have made a commitment to change their marriages. Even the Lifestyles convention is being marketed that way. From their Web site: "And, while many swingers attend, most of the couples do not share partners." That just about says it all. Yes, and those print mags were not much. The ones we saw when we started this in 1997 had maybe 150 ads from a three-state area. Today through the Net I could easily contact several hundred people within a 20-minute drive. Clubs were not easy to find. You couldn't just look up "swinger's clubs" in the Yellow Pages. Very few clubs were on line, and there were 2-3 lists of clubs on the Net, with mostly out-of-date info. It really took us six months before we finally hooked up with a club. (We never did try the magazines). In retrospect, waiting that long was a good thing. It gave us a chance to talk things over really well and to know what we wanted. Had we jumped into it when we first wanted to jump into it, we would not have been so well prepared.
  8. We have been swinging for five plus years, and we have definitely noticed a change in that time, which is attributable to the growth of the Internet during that period. Those who have entered the lifestyle within the past couple of years cannot appreciate how difficult it was pre-Internet to find swinging opportunities. There were swingers' clubs, but they were hard to find and much fewer than today. Beyond that, there were those scary contact magazines found in porn stores. No chat rooms, no adult personals sites. To be a swinger you really had to want to swing. It was not a casual pursuit at all. It felt more like a small secret society where everybody knew everybody else. We travelled to clubs in a three-state area and would often run into people who knew friends of ours 150-200 miles away. I believe that there are literally ten times more people calling themselves swingers today than there were five years ago, and a far greater proportion of people in their twenties. I think this has resulted in several effects, most of them not so good. For one thing, swinging has become less friendly than it used to be. Lifestyle socials used to feel like backyard barbecues with bare tits. Now the "hustle factor" is much greater than it used to be. Maybe this is what Stratecouple is referring to. We fall somewhat into the category of hit-and-run swingers, in that we often end up with different people from month to month (for reasons we have discussed in other posts) but it always used to be within a circle of people whom we saw from month to month, and with whom we always stayed friendly so long as we attended the same parties. Now the faces seem to change so quickly, it's impossible to get to know people. The other BIG difference is that there are many more people sort of dabbling in swinging. They really haven't made the commitment in their relationship to become swingers. It's more for the titillation, I think--so that on Monday morning they can go to their friends and say, "Oh yeah, we went to a swingers' party and boy are those people kinky *snicker snicker*." We find this irritating for a lot of ways. We sometimes get the feeling that half the people we meet at a typical dance are there to stand off to the side and gawk at us as if we were monkeys in the zoo. The dance turns into a risque version of any other dance club. The huge problem that goes along with that is that because they aren't really swingers, they haven't absorbed our relaxed approach to displays of affection, etc. and they haven't really discussed limits or expectations. This leads to bad misunderstandings as one partner gets into the swing of things, so to speak, and the other doesn't like it. We've seen more incidents of jealousy, hard feelings, etc etc in the past six months than in the four and a half years preceding it. In most cases this has involved younger people who didn't seem to understand that they were attending an alternative lifestyle club. Although it's great in theory to have all those good-looking twenty-somethings hanging around, we sort of miss the old days.
  9. Originally posted by Quin: But I do agree, many single males are out just to get laid and those that have really become incorporated into the swinging life (such as my two single male friends) have had to work hard to dispel the *single male attitude* from being assigned to them. Is it wrong for us to have a predetermined attitude or idea in our heads when we see a single male at a club or get together? Not really because 9 times out of 10 it's just a single guy looking to get laid...but once in while you hit about that one guy who is different than the other nine...just too sad that he must work doubly hard to overcome the stigma that single males have brought upon themselves. I think it is pretty easy to explain the behavior of most single males vs. men who have been in the swinging life for a while and the rare solo female. Single men in the straight world have never known anything but an "economy of scarcity" where sex is concerned. Of course he is looking to get laid. He is hardwired to want sex, and there is never enough sex to go around. It is just like being a stray dog in Calcutta. You have to fight for every scrap of food you can get, and since there is never enough, you are constantly on the lookout for an opportunity to grab a bite. Food is about the only thing you think about, because you are always hungry. And when you are in the presence of food, your manners are less than perfect because, in your world, he who hesitates always ends up watching somebody else get a mouthful. Pretty much the same obtains for single men in our society, unless they are movie producers or rock stars. OTOH, swinging is an sexual economy of plenty. The buffet table is always full and there's never a long wait to satisfy yourself. Of course those single guys mellow out in a situation like that. Set that stray mutt from Calcutta into a field where there's a T-bone at every turn, and pretty soon he'll be fat and mellow too. Needless to say, the same applies in spades for a single woman in swinging. Hell, for her it is not a buffet table, it is platter after platter of delicacies being brought to her table for her inspection and approval.
  10. A little bit of both. Our F half opened up the whole topic when she 'fessed up to some pretty hot fantasies. Our M half then picked up on it and suggested that we look into swinging as a way to satify that itch.
  11. Great topic. Going in, we should say that in our case, we both have near-complete personal freedom, yet our marriage is sacred and thriving. We wake up in each other's arms every morning, we raise our children and live our lives as a couple, and we plan a long future together. We love one another's company, and we make every effort to do as much as possible together and as a family. But we don't try to regulate what happens when we are physically separate. We both truly trust one another to keep the marriage inviolate, and as long as that's understood, then what else really matters? So that's our perspective. To get to your main question, it's technically cheating any time one partner breaks an agreement or promise. That's not a good thing for a marriage, but the bigger issue is why it happened. Was it to pursue an emotional connection with somebody else? If so, that's definitely bad news, and the marriage is probably in trouble. But if it was a primarily sexual relationship--if the straying partner was basically swinging alone without permission--the injured partner probably ought to take it for what little it's worth. After all, we as swingers ought to understand by now that sometimes sex is just sex. Why would somebody stray this way when (in theory) swinging provides an outlet for sexual curiosity? A point comes in many relationships where one partner feels a need for freedom and latitude, while remaining committed to the marriage. Swinging provides an outlet in some respects, but if the ground rules are too restrictive, then it's really just a tease of freedom and not truly satisfying. It gets back to limits. We all have them, but maybe we ought to periodically examine them and question why we have them. Most times, they exist because of insecurity and a need to control one another. "Okay, I will feel comfortable (i.e. not afraid) if you go here and here but not there and there and there ." From our point of view, this just sets up a minefield of "loyalty traps." That is a lousy basis for a relationship, and it's pointless anyway, because rules don't really work if the need to go there or there or there is strong enough. When a couple becomes swingers, they begin re-writing the rules of their marriage in order to grant one another a new freedom and the opportunity to find pleasure and happiness. It doesn't happen all at once, but ideally it should continue until both partners have all the freedom they need. Unfortunately, most people try to halt the process at some point, freezing some of the old rules in place. But the old rules don't really fit human nature (which is why we all start swinging in the first place). Giving your partner true freedom requires a huge leap of faith in one another. But actually it's a sneaky way of hooking them forever. Freedom is addictive, and once your partner has tasted it, s/he will never stray far. After all, why would anyone give up a life of true freedom just to get stuck with somebody who is possessive and insecure?
  12. We've already said on another thread that we are both free to pursue outside contacts, so in our case the answer is yes. It requires a great level of trust in the relationship, and a letting-go of control. That might be even more the case in the situation you describe. It would truly be a heroic act of love on the part of the incapacitated mate, whose only "perq" in the situation is knowing that his/her mate is still able to find sexual pleasure without guilt.
  13. Speaking for ourselves--sure. When we play, we don't have any specific objectives. We just hope to create a warm erotic experience that leaves everyone feeling happy and satisfied. On a given night, if that means a little foolin' around and finishing with each other, then that's what it means. There is more to sex than penetration, and pleasure is where you find it. We have found that really experienced couples are less likely to have a lot of rigid and arbitrary rules about what they will or will not do. They do not measure their fun on a scorecard of who does what to whom.
  14. A drink or two is okay. Anyone who looks even close to being drunk--slurred speech, etc., is off the list for the night. Not just because that individual is going to be a flop in the bedroom, but because we believe that clear-headed consent is the essence of swinging. The last thing we want is to have sex with somebody who regrets it a couple of hours later "because I was too drunk to know what I was doing." For ourselves, we are light drinkers--usually no more than a drink or two over the course of an evening. Sometimes we'll party all night without anything stronger than a Pepsi. We don't need to get oiled to have a good time at a swing party. If dirty dancing with a horny stranger and half-naked women groping each other on the dance floor doesn't do it for you, you need a new hobby. As to smoking... We don't smoke. We try not to make artificial or arbitrary rules about age, weight, personal habits. For us, it's all "in the moment." If we're attracted, we're attracted. And if the attraction is mutual, then we'll act on it. But in general, smoking tends to be a turnoff. As others have noted, smoking creates an unpleasant odor that mouthwash, perfume, and cologne can't completely disguise. And there's no allure in the yellowed teeth of many long-term smokers. Have we partied with smokers? Yes. But we have said no to many more. And we have never said yes to anyone who blew smoke in our faces while trying to seduce us.
  15. We are an interracial couple--wife is Asian, husband is white. We have never encountered any prejudice, if that's what you mean. In five years in the lifestyle we have never seen race be an issue except in a positive way (i.e. some people tend to be attracted to races different from their own). It's certainly true that the population of swingers tends to be overwhelmingly white, more so than the national population. Nevertheless, we have never known race to be an issue. Swingers seem to have other things on their minds... Good luck to you and your wife.
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