dealing with religious guilt?

[cupl4fun]

My wife and I both struggled for quite some time with how God viewed swinging (we were both raised in the church) just wanted to share that we read a great book dealing with what the Bible really says about sex and thought it might help some others it's called Divine Sex by Philo Thelos. It helped us quite a lot and thought maybe it could help some others. We didn't agree with all of it but most of it is really sound and logical.

[JustMrJ]

My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Christian.

Our views on this are that most of the 'rules' set down ages and ages ago were to deal with disease and that marriage for love in those days was probably the exception and not the rule.

Now I'm not sure if the "marriage for love" thing has become the rule, but I would expect that most people are at least trying for that instead of having arranged marriages.

So for us, love is love and sex is sex. My father also told me once that sex is not forever and you really need love to keep a marriage alive. Although we can go quite a ways into our later years and still perform, it's still not the primary part of a successful marriage. And it's not all of what a marriage is about. We think there are many other subtle things that we communicate to each other physically outside of sex that are expressions of love. Sex is primarily sex and secondarily love to us. Sometimes just a hug, a kiss, a cuddle, or even a look is enough for love to be communicated.

With us there is no guilt because we are both adults that have made our own decision about how we want to play and enjoy ourselves. If that means my wife is 'serviced' by another man or men, or I am 'serviced' by another woman or women... that is what we CHOOSE to do.

If it was infidelity, then I would think that one of us would feel guilt ... as it should be since you should ALWAYS be honest and caring towards your spouse's needs. Lies and betrayal have absolutely no place in a successful marriage.

[ownerspet]

First, I will say that religion is not for me or for the mrs, as both of us were brought up in a somewhat hypocracy of religion (christianity to be specific, and primarily baptist). Does that mean that all christianity is filled with hypocracy or that all baptist is even? I don't know, but what we've seen is filled with it. Then with so many people that live forever that are scum bags in my opinion, and so many people that are good that go through much bad stuff, I find it hard to beleive that a loving god exists. If you believe it, fine I'm not going to bash you over the head.

However, I will point out something to you. Religion or religous books (aka the bible, the koran, etc.) were translated by man in we'll say "oldern days". It was probably translated several times by man, resulting in a version that due to the motivations of the translators and varying opinions it probably isn't in it's original version and there are probably some changes that were motivated by personal gain of individuals. After all if I was to be the leader, and I could say pay me a percentage of your earnings as "a gift to god" or "tithe", I might do it to. So I would get this great salary or income from you and lots of others to run my organization or government. Or if I wanted you to live my way and my way only; and I were translating a religous book, I might be tempted make a rule that said you had to live my way. I'm not like that though and I obviously don't have a religion that I dictate to people.

How does this relate to guilt? I believe religion is a man made set of rules, and at a minimum it was greatly modified depending on the powers of time when particular translations were made of what ever religous book in question. On this note: In order to feel guilty over breaking a rule, we have to whole heartedly agree with the rule being broken. I'm pretty sure some where I heard that King James was homosexual (yes of the King James Old English Version of the Christian Bible). I don't think many in the Christian Religion today would openly agree that that was ok.

As this relates to swingers, the rules may be different for different couples, as many of us have different boundaries between us and our significant others.

So, I would not feel guilty over whether I'm in line with some religous beleifs.

[ViSexual]

Oh my,

Ownerspet, I've always felt pretty much like you..., 'without guilt, how could the church survive?'

But, just because you and I (and maybe some others) here have this belief, let's not push it on others.

This is a real problem with some swingers.

And, Cpl4fun, I just might read the book myself. Sounds very interesting.

[cupl4fun]

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion). I definitely do not look down on anyone for their beliefs and am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I just found the book to be very helpful in relieving most of my religious guilt and shame about sex and swinging and thought it might be helpful for others who've been in our shoes. If you're not dealing with those issues then this thread might not be worthwhile for you but if you are I think this book might really help. If you would like to discuss some of those issues you're dealing with or the book we would be happy to do that. I believe that no matter what your beliefs; life is too short to be lived under the crushing weight of guilt and shame and if I find something that might help I want to share it. My intention was only to help.

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by cupl4fun

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion).

Actually, only politics is verboten.

Religion is a sub-forum on the board, and there have been some interesting discussions in the last few years. Some more productive than others, but definitely some intriguing thoughts.

I was brought up in the church, and still remember most of the teachings, but now I'm an agnostic, with FSM leanings.

Thanks for sharing your info, and don't apologize for trying to help others.

[VegasLee]

I don't feel ownerspet was pushing his view on anyone anymore then he is pushing swinging on anyone. He did no more then express his personal view on the subject.

Now if the whole world would fall into that same frame of mind there would be a lot less wars and worry in this world.

It's called live and let live, to bad most won't do that. Someone always want to judge others by their own standards in this life.

[JoeB]

I guess we are members of the "Hypocrite" religion, Southern Baptist. I am a deacon & SS teacher and, yes, we swing. Is it wrong or right, I not sure. We were both widowed and long, happy marriages. When we met, we said life was to short (my wife had not been with another man until she started in the lifestyle). We keep our lifestyle separate from our religion, the same way we keep it from our family (grown childred) and work. We never play behind one anothers back, that's cheating and that is wrong.

We know other couples that do too. So, we do not judge persons if they are religious or not. Our two cents.

[ownerspet]

I wasn't trying to push my views on anyone else, I was just giving my input to the subject.

Originally Posted by JoeB

I guess we are members of the "Hypocrite" religion, Southern Baptist.

For the record, I did not say "all" baptist, "all" religion or "all" of anything is charaterized by hypocracy. I actually used the words, "from what we've seen." I was refering to my experiences and what the mrs has told me about her experiences, in growing up in religous groups that were filled with hypocracy. If you are some how offended by my view, it's quite alright, as I understand everyone doesn't agree on everything.

In response to cupl4fun:

I do realize that you are suggesting a book for any individuals coping with guilt of swinging vs religion. And, I actually hope that swingers dealing with guilt can benefit from it, I was just including my input, which does have a varying point of view.

[Bama0468]

Well now... as a religiously raised person I would like to point out that as you study anything of those day you need to think about when, to whom, and by whom it was written. Since the dead sea scrolls are not completely intact, and we as fallible man tried to insert what "made sense" to us in the vacancies, and as some of the men that created (formatted) the bible left out some books that they felt were 'not' inspired, some of which the catholics used and even some of the others were rejected by them.

Since all these writings were left out, I dare say very few have read or even tried to research them ( provided you knew they existed).

It is my view based on my own belief and personal research that all things in marriage, done by the consenting couple, are all well in good PROVIDED it is with in the laws of the land (I.E. children would be taboo, animals etc.)

now any book that might help explain theses things better than some of us can would be most welcome, after all I am sure the author was inclined to balance things out in a manner that would not impugn them and bring them undue lawsuits.

[Chris&Amelia]

I personally believe in God. But I can't say I'm all that big on organized religions, which I tend to view as a scam to initially control the masses and then, later on, fleece them of their hard-earned money.

I've always lived my life by the philosophy of "Try not to harm anybody." I donate the charity, do volunteer work, etc. not because I feel I'm obligated, but because it helps people who need it.

I view myself as a good person. Now, I realize that this is a highly subjective viewpoint... some people I've arrested in my career would take umbrage with this. And even Hitler believed he wasn't evil and he was actually doing a good thing.

God made us in such a way that sex is an enjoyable and pleasing activity. Why would exploring this aspect of our humanity be immoral?

[socolais]

Organized religion sometimes gets some bad light because it is represented by imperfect people. I think sometimes in many of the popular religious practices, people limit their enjoyment of sex much the way some abstain from pleasures durring Lent - they feel a strength by refusing to submit to hedonistic urges. Somehow this mindset gets placed as an example for others to follow. I think peer pressure forces some folks into this behavior pattern against their preferences.

It takes a lot of selfconfidence to throw off those shackles and decide to enjoy the pleasures of responsible non-manogamy. I don't find any conflict with my religious beliefs or sense of morality. I had to fight with those concepts and look deep inside to find answers for myself. I took a while for me to finally grant myself permission to explore the opportunities first hand. Now that I've crossed the line, I can say with confidence that I'm spiritually happy with our swinging activities.

My dad is a retired fundamental Baptist preacher. I was basically raised in the church and observed plenty of examples of how walking the narrow path can help prevent many of life's common problems. I also know there are other means to the same end....

[Alura]

In my opinion, when the Roman Emperor Constantine was converted to Christianity, moved from Rome to Constantinople and ordered the Bible to be compiled, the philosophy taught by the man we know as Jesus was radically changed.

The writings of Saul of Tarsus were included as God-inspired even though they emphasized hellfire and brimstone over peace; guilt and sin over love. Some historians believe Saul suffered from paranoia and may have had advanced syphillis.

Some years ago there was a single woman named Quin who posted here. She was a historian and added a lot to a discussion similar to this.

Saul believed God was really angry that his son had been crucified and would surely end the world, if not within the next five minutes, certainly within the next five weeks. He felt mankind should be preparing for the end and things like sex wasted time that could be spent praying for forgiveness. "It is better that a man not touch a woman."

Jesus loved and respected women while Saul seemed contemptuous of them. Jesus rarely mentioned sex, never homosexuality. He befriended prostitutes and is thought by some historians to have at least had a love relationship with Mary Magdeline, if not marriage. Some believe they had children.

If we lived solely by Jesus' teachings, there would be no need for guilt feelings about sex.

Personally, I don't know if there is a god and don't believe I have the power to find out. I'll go with the Great Spirit, Spider Woman, Mother Earth and Father Sky. However, I do believe that Jesus was one of the most remarkable humans who ever lived.

Mr. Alura

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by cupl4fun

I may have made a mistake here bringing one of the two unmentionables up (politics and religion). I definitely do not look down on anyone for their beliefs and am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I just found the book to be very helpful in relieving most of my religious guilt and shame about sex and swinging and thought it might be helpful for others who've been in our shoes.

Religion is definately not forbidden here, it comes up at least once every couple of months and it's just one of those topics that when brought up it will spark a discussion of what the various participants here believe when it comes to religion. And the beliefs vary about as widely as our definitions of swinging. I know that was not your intent when you brought up the subject and mentioned the book you found, but sometimes our posts have results we didn't intend (I know mine do quite often).

[Edison Carter]

Susan here-- Do you really think that a universe with billions of galaxies has a god in it that cares what you do sexually ? Religious rules are nothing more than controls created by the men who wrote them. You may like the controls; even feel compelled by them. Yet, you certainly are not more or less loved because you follow them.