Swinging vrs Religion

[wereinheat]

During the past couple of weeks she has been having some problems with swinging and religious beliefs. We are not regular church goes. As a matter of fact we have not been in a church for regular services in well over a year. But her feelings are those conflicts she feels regarding the bible. Any others come across this situation and how did you deal with it?

[JustAskJulie]

This is actually a pretty common issue. Regardless of whether or not we are active in church now, the beliefs that were ingrained us as children still often have a way of cropping up into our lives and causing us to feel guilty about things that we do or want to do.

I would highly suggest the two of you check out the Liberated Christians website at http://www.libchrist.com

[sportync]

A lot of people have trouble puting religion into context, or understanding just what the Bible has to say about sex. Remember that it was not God or Jesus who said sex was naughty or bad...it was Emperor Constantine and those who came after him 500 years after the death of Jesus. Adultry, as written in the ancient texts refered not to a sexual act, but rather to the crime of stealing another man's property(his wife). God never punished or even criticized Solomon or David for keeping several hundred wives and comcubines. Love is love, and if you wish to share your bed with friends in a loving way that will enhance a man and woman's joy together, I seriously doubt whether God would mind. After all, he created us with a strong sexual nature and if we act out our sexual fantasies together in an expression of love, then I personally don't think that such behavior runs contrary to the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible. So it then becomes a matter of reason. Do you want to include others to help enhance the relationship you have with the one you love? Or are you using it as just a means to tag some strange? Jesus' message to us was about love, respect, caring and sharing. In this context, I don't think that swinging is something that should condem you to lakes of fire for all eternity. Now lying, cheating, sneaking around behind your lover's back...that's another story entirely! Sportync

[Bluebirds in San Jose]

OK; Who here believes for a minute that I am a regular married church-going Christian who both attends weekly church services *and* occasionally plays in the bedroom with friends? Let's see a show of hands!

OK, I thought so; no one believes me.

Nevertheless, it's true. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, and I'm active in many parts of my parish, including acting as a former parish council member, Lector, and currently active in the Social Justice group. My kids are enrolled in the CCD classes ('religious education'), there, too.

Why do we 'swing'? The answer to that is different for each couple, so I won't go into that, here; it's not the question I'm answering.

Why do we *not* have a problem with swinging vis-a-vis 'religion'? Because we feel it's not "Adultery". It's not a matter of being 'unfaithful' to our spouse; it's not 'cheating'.

The commitment is to each other in this (or any other valid) marriage. The promise is to work together to build a life for us and our children. We have friendships, true, with other couples, and we can express those friendships through some very intimate means; but we're not building a life with them. We're not part of their families, nor are they part of ours.

It's a matter of focus and commitment.

Of course, this is just a gloss of our thoughts and reasons. Entire books could be - and probably have been - written about this.

We simply don't see a contradiction between playtime and faith.

- J, of the SJBluebirds

[fishin69]

I'm glad this subject came up. My wife is deeply religious, and I've been thinking how I can justify sharing passion with others. Been think that it would'nt be adultry if we are together and enjoying. To me sharing wife (ieMFM) is a way to totally please her, which is I want to do. So would be wanting to totally sexually p-lease and give her all the love I possible can be sinning, I hope not. I want this for showing my love for her, not just sex. Hopefully we come into agreement

[oldbulldog56]

There was a group called "Liberated Christians" who dealt with all aspects of swining and polyamory from a christian viewpoint. The group was out of pheonix and has a website up I do believe.

[Bluebirds in San Jose]

I checked out the Liberated Christians a few years ago. They're a little too ... how do I say this without offending them? ... a little too 'mainstream protestant'.

We Catholics like to think we're the only 'real' Christians out there <ducking and running>

-J, of the SJBluebirds

[JamesTKirk]

I think this is a great thread. I too am a Roman Catholic, have participated in all of the Sacraments, and attended Catechism when I was a boy. Although I don't go to Church very much these days, I miss it and would be more motivated to go except that the Church takes a pretty dim view of those of us who are divorced. Okay, that's another subject.

Basically, I think what you all have been saying encapsulates what I feel toward my wife, which is that I love her more than my own life and would do anything (within reason) to please her. Since my wife wants to swing, and because we participate with full communication and acceptance, there is no dishonesty nor is there any "coveting" of another's spouse. I'm pretty sure that the biblical connotation of the word "covet" should be interpreted in the context of ultimately "stealing" another's spouse for oneself, which isn't happening since all parties are aware of the intentions of the participants.

[davephx]

Very good responses from others on this important topic that results in guilt and confusion by many Christian swingers.

As others have said, there is no biblical conflict - The anti-sex traditions have no biblical basis. We have scads of articles, bibliography "The Bible, Christianity & Sexual Issues" section at
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/contents.html

We receive zillions of supportive E-mails from many pastors and theologians that are so thrilled someone is dealing honestly with the biblical issues not just Church traditions.

I once was up against a very conservative minister on a Portland Radio talk show. He couldn't even get to libchrist.com since it is blocked by some Christian software. After long debate he had to admit the issue is following what the bible said and meant in the culture in which it was written, vs. Church tradition. Tradition teaches the anti sex message, not the bible.

No offense intended but for Catholics its simply that much of their traditions in many areas, not just sexual are man made, often to control people, and have no biblical basis. We show how some of these Catholic anti sex traditions developed. For example, priests could have many wives and mistresses until it cost the Church too much money and celibacy was introduced - not for any biblical reason but to protect the Church from all the children and wives requiring financial support.

At libchrist.com we deal with biblical issues for sincere Christians not man made rules and traditions. For those that are non-Christians, they often also suffer from the same guilt or morality issues based upon the attitudes of our culture which is predominately Judeo-Christian based.

[davephx]

Originally posted by JamesTKirk
I'm pretty sure that the biblical connotation of the word "covet" should be interpreted in the context of ultimately "stealing" another's spouse for oneself, which isn't happening since all parties are aware of the intentions of the participants.

Exactly...

In the 10th commandment, Exodus 20:17 it says:
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house, thou shalt not covet the neighbors wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass , nor anything that is thy neighbors."

BTW, ass is an animal...not .... what your thinking of....

In the 10th commandment a woman who is a wife is listed among other items of ownership. The wife seems to be on the same level of importance as his ox and ass.

The word "covet" is to desire to own. In biblical times clearly the man owned his wives just as a he owned his sons and daughters.

It may also be important to realize there was no effective birth control and knowing only a husband sired the children was very important. A woman's husband owned the fertility rights and the resulting children of his wives and concubines (breeders). Children were very important both financially - boys to work and girls to sell for bride price - as well as because of the strong family relationships that were so important.

[Handyman69]

This was quite a topic for me when I first really started thinking about swinging. My answers were similar to much of the topics discussed in this thread. For me it came down to....I just didn't feel it was cheating, so for me meant it was not wrong in my heart. I know my husband loves me very much and this was to enhance that relationship not destroy it.

We continue to go to church regularly and kids are involved in the youth groups. Not sure what I will do if any of the kids or "church" friends find out but will deal with that then. I feel we have grown closer together in this last months. So how can it be against the Bible, if our relationship is growing stronger?

Just my thoughts,

Rhonda

[curious24]

Very good thread going here.. but most of you all talk about couples.. just curious does all this apply to all the singles out there? hmmm....

just a thought.. and now my brain is going to work

[Vjklander]

As a Heathen I guess I'm just lucky that free sexual expression is a part of my religion.
Jamie

[davephx]

Originally posted by curious24
Very good thread going here.. but most of you all talk about couples.. just curious does all this apply to all the singles out there? hmmm

I am a bit confused by question. This is a swingers board. By traditional definition this means couples. It use to be called "wife swapping". Some singles are allowed to participate but only in limited ways since singles really aren't swingers again by definition.

As it relates to the religious issues, in biblical times almost everyone was married based on deal with a girls father by age 14, so there weren't many singles issues. In fact marriages were often arranged long before the legal age of 12.5/13.5 for marriage and were betrothed before that.

But there really are no biblical restrictions for singles. "fornication" is a total lie in translation of the Greek "porneia"

Dave in Phoenix
Liberated Christians
http://www.libchrist.com

[curious24]

Swinger as defined by www.dictionary.com

swing·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (swngr)
n.
One that swings: a good swinger of baseball bats.
Slang.

• A person who actively seeks excitement and moves with the latest trends.
• A person who engages freely in promiscuous sex.
• A member of a couple, especially a married couple, who exchanges sexual partners.

"A person who engages freely in promiscuous sex"

I would say that a single person by definition can be a swinger.

I guess my question is are there any religious teachings out there about single males or females participating in sexual acts with couples, other singles, etc (i.e. premarital sex or sex with a married couple). Or is it all just about couples since you say "By traditional definition this means couples."? Are their any rules defined by religious for singles out there? or are we supposed to sit back and watch all the couples?

hmmmm....