New Relations while resolving the negative connotations given by religion

[Sean2Come]

Greetings, this lifestyle has been a long held fantasy that I have decided to explore. I am, however, not certain about the best way to proceed.

My wife and I share a wonderful sex-life and recently began photographing ourselves. She is excited to make love outside now that the weather is warmer desptie the risk of being seen. I know this all sounds tame to most of you, however, I hope that I can take these seeds of exhibitionism and gradually move us toward something more along the lines of soft-swing. I will not, however, go there alone (despite the tempatation).

At this stage, I am soliciting advice and opinion from those who have ventured down this road before. She is not aware of my intentions, however, I hope to nuture her interests if possible but not forcibly.

Suggestions? Stories of things that worked for you?

Sean

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

She is not aware of my intentions, however, I hope to nuture her interests if possible but not forcibly.

Suggestions? Stories of things that worked for you?

Sean

Welcome to the board.

My first suggestion would be to do a lot of reading on here. The FAQ and Getting Started are good places to begin. There are LOTS of threads here that address the problem of talking to your partner about swinging.

The reason I quoted this part of your post is because it's raising a red flag for me. Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but I can't help but get a sense of manipulation on your part, however subtle. I will say this, as soon as you start primarily using the "I" instead of "we", you're going to run into problems. I know you said you don't want to do this without your wife, and that is great, but to really be able to swing successfully, the couple needs to be completely in tune with one another in all ways. Sexually, emotionally, spiritually, mentally... It's going to require a level of honesty that most people can't even conceive of, and this is going to be your first brush with that requirement.

You're going to need to tell your wife exactly what your intentions are. Otherwise, despite your best intentions, she's going to feel ambushed. It's true that someone needs to bring it up first and "plead his case", so to speak, but the decision to discard monogamy in a relationship is something that both people need to be equally involved in at every stage. It will mean the life of death of your relationship.

Now, I'm sorry if I'm way off track. I can understand if you just meant that you don't want to mention the word "swinging", because it does have some pretty ugly connotations (images of Austin Powers and Jerry Springer episodes come to mind). Perhaps you meant that you'd rather just do what feels natural without giving it a label? I totally agree with that. Just as long as there's no coercion, manipulation or dishonesty involved.

Please continue to post, and please do bring your wife to the board to read along with you. Ask her to post her questions. Looking forward to getting to know you both.

[Sean2Come]

Dear Intuition:

Thanks for the truly intuitive response (eh!). You are correct, I do not want to manipulate her.

Swinging does have negative connotations for us church-going midwesterners and, frankly, I don't foresee either of us going there. I do think sharing pictures or exchanges with a distant couple is something that she may be more comfortable with eventually. She would react negatively in viewing this site (or other swinger sites) at the moment.

I simply have not found the time, place and words to delicately broach this subject.

I cannot be the first partner who crossed this line with his/her spouse in the history of mankind.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

Dear Intuition:

Thanks for the truly intuitive response (eh!). You are correct, I do not want to manipulate her.

Swinging does have negative connotations for us church-going midwesterners and, frankly, I don't foresee either of us going there. I do think sharing pictures or exchanges with a distant couple is something that she may be more comfortable with eventually. She would react negatively in viewing this site (or other swinger sites) at the moment.

I simply have not found the time, place and words to delicately broach this subject.

I cannot be the first partner who crossed this line with his/her spouse in the history of mankind.

Never say never. I think you'd be surprised at how straight-laced I was originally. I enjoyed sex, but I grew up with a very traditional Christian background. Even though I had been told it was wrong to have sex before marriage, I did, but I felt guilty. When Mr. intuition brought up swinging, I was pretty hurt by the suggestion because I had grown up thinking that sex was supposed to be the ultimate expression of love. Why else would entire marriages be based on it? Monogamy was more natural-seeming to me than breathing. It was just one of life's "given"s. I experienced a real shift in my thinking between then and now, and now I can't see monogamy for monogamy's sake as a natural or healthy lifestyle. Perhaps for some people it is, but certainly not for Mr. and me.

And I have also resolved the conflicts I've felt with regard to swinging vs. religion. I'm still a Christian, yet I am not conflicted. This isn't a band-aid fix, nor am I simply rationalizing. I really have made my peace with God about it. I'm not the only one, either. There are others on the board as well who are practicing Christians AND swingers. Seems like a contradiction of terms, doesn't it? Sort of like saying that oil is water. But it is true.

Anyway, here's one thread that might be of interest to you:
How to bring up swinging with my wife without hurting her?

Good luck.

[Sean2Come]

Once again, thanks for taking time to offer a thoughtful response. This Board is refreshingly intelligent in its design.

Since you dropped the C-word, I am going to speak to you as one Christian to another, OK? Please hear me, I am in no way standing in judgement of you. I am not trying to play the Holy Spirit (or anything like that) but I confess that I am not on the same page with you, as a Christian, in accepting the concept of open marriage (provided you are speaking to "hard" swinging) unless you throw out Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 7 (for starters) and "give yourself over" to the flesh (no pun intended).

If I have misinterpreted where you are at, please forgive me and disregard this response. If not,...frankly, exchanging photos with another couple or perhaps even "soft swing" itself may pose a conflict between scripture and flesh that I have yet to resolve. I.e., I am still mulling that one over as to whether it will pose a hindrance to my relationship with God.

Having physical union with someone other than your spouse, well,... I'd like to see someone honestly justify that (using the Greek text) without piece-mealing scripture. If you can, I am all ears.

You said, "And I have also resolved the conflicts I've felt with regard to swinging vs. religion. I'm still a Christian, yet I am not conflicted. This isn't a band-aid fix, nor am I simply rationalizing. I really have made my peace with God about it."

What is it that has left you unconflicted? Is it something that you decided/rationalized or is it something that is supported in the Greek text from which you also draw your spiritual identity?

Sean

[Chicup]

Being I gave up my religion at age 8 I can't help you with your conflicts as they are not my conflicts, but your questions are by no means unique.

If I could recomend http://www.libchrist.com/ as a place to visit in your quest, and forgive the web design, back when the website was set up it wasn't so bad but that was several years ago

If I may steal a line from 'Stranger in a Strange Land' God wants you to be happy. Swinging has made my wife and I very happy and we love each other at a level I see so infrequently in others that I can't see it as wrong.

[fun4Ds]

Here is my take on things. Im a christian, my book of truth says that if I ask god any question about anything, with complete FAITH, he will always answer. So i did.... and yes, I got my answers.I respect all religions and only ask that mine be respected in return.

Now about outdoor/outside sex we are sooooo cool with that We are outdoors people. We search for those secluded pristine places,and we have found some good ones. We have gotten a bit risky. But, Mrs fun is hoping to have sex under the cities fireworks . it is possible by boat

With the picture taking, you have to be carefull now days. Here is how it works for Us. We have talked, and here was our deal.. All pics,video swinger stuff belongs to mrs.fun NON NEGOSHIBLE. tried and true.. the day happend when they were smashed and trashed My bad.. None the less, the rules were the rules. I agreed with them. Mrs.fun being the little devil she can be sometimes allowed me the privlage again. Same rules NON NEGOSHABLE .. Im ok with that nothing is hidden from one another.

So somehow what im trying to say is let your wife in on how you feel be prepared to ... listen.... to her. We are swingers, as a couple first. When we cross paths with people for the right reasons ... on the same path.. its great..

[Pepper & Drew]

There are many threads on religion and swinging, some of which are listed here:

Christian Swingers?

You think that she would react negatively to this site or to the idea of swinging, however, since you've never talked about it, you don't know for sure. That's one of the things about swinging--assuming your spouse's reaction, thoughts or feelings is pretty dangerous sometimes. If you want to know exactly how your spouse feels...communicate. Sometimes you'll be surprised how much you have to learn about the woman you've known for years.

Pepper

[dayhiker]

Hi Sean2Come,

I'm a Christian as well. Have a Bible degree and have studied the Bible for 40 years. Sex has always been an interest of mine and its caused me some conflicts (big and small) over the years.

So almost two years ago I finally decided to study the Bible and see what it really said about sex using the histroical-grammatical method I learn in college. I didn't fine what I thought I was going to fine. I'm not a greek expert but I can find a greek work in a Greek lexicon. So I looked up fornication. I'd always heard preachers say that was premarrital sex. Well, not one of the 3 lexicons lists the meaning as porneia as pre-marrital sex.

I also was reading about King David being confronted by the prophet Nathan for his adultery with Bathsheba. There I got the shock of my life. Nathan said GOD gave David all the wives of Saul. God gave you all the lands you have conquered. If these weren't enough for you should have asked him for more! Clearly God was telling David, a man after God own heart. A man who was being confronted about his adultery that if he wanted more wives to have sex with all he had to do was pray and ask!

So then I had to study what adultery meant in the Bible days. Again I found the church and society doesn't use the word the way they used it in Bible times. This despite the fact that adultery is one of the few words in the Bible that has a definision for.

I've shared all this that I've learned with the pastors of my church. They have not once been able to show me there they are right and I'm wrong. Matter of fact they got gun shy. I remember the night I was telling one of them about the meaning of Adultery in Bible times. The pastor got his Eerdmann's Bible Dictionary off his shelf to look up what it says. I'd not read that dictionary. I was a little nervous. As he read what it said, it said what I had said word for word! It was rather amazing. But ofcourse he can't believe what I'm saying because he would look his licence to pearch and his livelihood.

The Best book that somes up all this information is "Divine Sex" by Philo Thelos. He was a minister for 40 years before he retired. There are many other books as well if you look for them, some are quite dry to read as they are written by college professors.

If you a man of Bible study and you will believe what you learn, it will shake your world and probably your marriage. If you can hang onto God thru it all that the liberty and freedom you will have in God will be a great blessing even if you never get to swing.

That is my experiance, my wife knows, but she can't accept it. I love her, so to swing would not be loving her and so would be a sin. But I've not been this close to Jesus since I was a youth involved in the Jesus people of the 70's. Praise God, I'm living the Bible day by day. The Holy Spirit is treaching me so much.

Ops I started preaching. Who would thought I'd get to share my love for Jesus on a swingers chat board.
Thanks Julie.
dayhiker

OH, wife and I climbed Mt. Washington Sat. What a great time!

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

Since you dropped the C-word, I am going to speak to you as one Christian to another, OK? Please hear me, I am in no way standing in judgement of you. I am not trying to play the Holy Spirit (or anything like that) but I confess that I am not on the same page with you, as a Christian, in accepting the concept of open marriage (provided you are speaking to "hard" swinging) unless you throw out Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 7 (for starters) and "give yourself over" to the flesh (no pun intended).

I am indeed speaking of "hard" swinging. We have full-swapped with other couples and thoroughly enjoyed it. I wouldn't recommend it, though, until you have resolved any spiritual conflicts as it can really tear you apart. If you read Romans 14 and substitute sex for food (which is a reasonable thing to do considering how well these two basic human drives - hunger and sex - parallel one another), you find something pretty interesting. All through the Bible there are incidents of polygamous marriages, and God does not condemn them for it. To the best of my knowledge, all the instances of sexual crimes in the Bible are associated with something that has a destructive or negative impact on the people involved or the people around those who committed the crime. God didn't make non-monogamous sex a crime "just because". He had His reasons. Lying and cheating are wrong. A woman, in those days, was subject to property laws; she belonged to her husband, and when she gave herself away to someone else, she was giving away something that didn't belong to her. This was hurtful to the relationship with the husband because of her betrayal, and it was probably a great embarrassment that your own wife, someone who was supposed to "have your back" jerked the rug out from under your feet. It just made the entire family look bad. Unstable. There was a lack of respect on the wife's part to her husband. But I don't think there was any mention of men making a similar offense. Do you think they just left that part out? I doubt it. The Bible is too pro-woman for me to believe that this was just a God-approved double standard.

Anyway, I don't believe that God created us as sexual beings and then turned around and told us we were supposed to deny ourselves this aspect of human pleasure. He has a sense of humour, but He isn't cruel. He does indeed want us to enjoy the life we have been given, and sex is one of the greatest gifts He gave us. We just need to learn to use our gifts responsibly and moderately. I feel that my husband and I are doing just that. And BTW, to address the issue of "giving oneself over to the flesh", swinging actually allows us remove the stranglehold that sex had on our marriage. Seems strange, but it's SOOOO true. If you remove sexual exclusivity from the marriage, what is left? If very little is left, if your partner is only with you because you are the best lover he or she could find, then you're in trouble. If the health of your relationship depends on whether or not you are the best lay in the world (better sex = better love?) then you will always live in fear that someone else will come along and steal away everything you value...because he has a bigger penis or flatter abs. But when you take away the stipulation that you must each always and forever only lust after one another in order for there to be a relationship, suddenly sex no longer determines whether or not you will remain together. This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog. The people should control the sex, the sex shouldn't control the people, and if you should both decide that - no, it really doesn't bother me to see you with someone else - then who is to stop you? Whose marriage is this anyway? As long as you are not hurting each other, hurting yourselves, hurting others, or hurting God, then what is the problem?

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

If I have misinterpreted where you are at, please forgive me and disregard this response. If not,...frankly, exchanging photos with another couple or perhaps even "soft swing" itself may pose a conflict between scripture and flesh that I have yet to resolve. I.e., I am still mulling that one over as to whether it will pose a hindrance to my relationship with God.

Again, Romans 14. Some people truly believe that eating a particular kind of meat will be offensive to God. This is what is in their hearts. Since none of us can truly know the mind of God, we are left to interpret the precious few words He left us, and to use our common sense. Not everyone reaches the same conclusions, and therefore, we each celebrate and worship in our own unique way. I TRULY doubt that God is as easily offended as all that. Our petty squabblings and our short-sighted two-year-old temper tantrums, our pouting and complaining, our silly obsessive-compulsiveness, our autistic focus on the trivialities of life...He's just so far above all that. He has better things to do than worry about which hole we put what body part into.

Wanna know what I believe hurts God more than anything? Knowing that we don't care if we're hurting Him or not...that we're just going to do what we want regardless of whether or not it offends Him. So if you feel that sharing nekkid pictures or soft swinging is an offense to God, yet you do it anyway, you are indeed sinning because you are doing this regardless of whether or not it is right. My husband and I, on the other hand, do not feel that we are offending God. In fact, I feel this is an opportunity to improve our marriage and help other like-minded people improve their marriages, too. This is a very positive thing. Mr. intuition and I value one another above all else in the world, and this is what our marriage is made of. This kind of relationship is definitley God-designed, and doing all we can to nurture and enhance it glorifies God.

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

Having physical union with someone other than your spouse, well,... I'd like to see someone honestly justify that (using the Greek text) without piece-mealing scripture. If you can, I am all ears.

I'm not a scholar. I would be, likely, if I had the time, energy and money, but I don't know a word of Greek. And even if I did, I likely wouldn't be able to find anything that would satisfy you. I suspect you know your Bible inside and out, and I have NO interest in a passage-look-up duel. The fact remains, however, that one opinion is as good as another; you interpret a passage from your perspective, and I interpret that same passage from my perspective. We draw two different meanings from that same text. Which one of us is right? The thing is, I doubt there is a passage you could show me that would convince me that my beliefs are wrong. Everything I've read falls right in line with what I already know in my heart; you would inevitibly find a passage that you feel would condemn me, and I would likely find that same passage supported me. It is all in our personal interpretation. And I feel it would be a sin to re-align my thinking to what the mainstream says is right or wrong.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

[Sean2Come]

To all:

Thanks for taking time to offer the thoughtful replies.

Although much of what I have read appears to be supported by personal conviction, I have not heard a convincing argument in favor of hard swinging that is firmly supported by scripture.

Sean

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

To all:

Thanks for taking time to offer the thoughtful replies.

Although much of what I have read appears to be supported by personal conviction, I have not heard a convincing argument in favor of hard swinging that is firmly supported by scripture.

Sean

So you want to find scripture that endorses wife swapping directly?

[2jersey]

Originally Posted by Chicup

So you want to find scripture that endorses wife swapping directly?

Does this count?

"So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the Law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12 RSV)

[dayhiker]

Intuition,
Ya, Rom.14 has helped me a lot.
Another verse that Paul wrote when dealing with this topic really struck home to teach me about how paul saw things.

1 Cor.8:10 For if someone weak sees you who possess knowledge dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience be “strengthened” to eat food offered to idols?

Paul had no problem with a person going into an idol temple and eating a meal. The only consideration he thought this person should consider is how it would effect someone that didn't understand things the way he did. This totally blew me away because this is the central message of the whole Bible that believers weren't to have anything to do with idols. But this gentile could be there in the idol temple eating his food in faith and not sin because he didn't offer a sacrifice to the idol nor did he engage a prostitute in idol worship. The meat only became unclean if the person didn't have faith. WOW! that really helped set me free.

dayhiker

[Sean2Come]

All:

There appears to be a number of people on this site who profess being “Christians” and have justified hard swinging within the context of their faith. I raised the doubt that one could participate in this part of the Lifestyle and justify it within the context of the original Greek and Hebrew. I suspected that it would generate some interesting, thoughtful responses and so it has.

Thus far, all I have read are opinions in which some fairly large leaps are made from the original text to an interpretation which is way out of context but does fit the respondent’s personal preferences. I have yet to read an intellectually persuasive argument citing NT scripture whereby the text directly gives a Holy Okeedokee to swapping.

I do not believe it is in there, however, a lot of definitions to marriage as one man, one woman and not straying from your spouse (sexually or emotionally) are readily available without having to make the same intellectual stretch expressed by most of y’all.

In the same breath, I acknowledge that some of the advice offered to my original thread may prove useful and is appreciated.

Thanks and good luck.

Sean