New Relations while resolving the negative connotations given by religion

[newandexcited]

This is a confusing thread. In the first post the fella appears to be actively seeking the lifestyle but then as the thread progress he appears to be telling everyone the they've rationalized their "sinful" lifestyle. Am I reading this wrong?

I don't have any answers for this religious debate but I do know that since bring up this idea of swinging and share my true feelings with my wife...well, our entire lives have gotten better together. First, I've always felt 100% guilty for my desires and fantasies. But then I exposed these thing to my wife. I brought the thoughts out of the dark corners of my mind and threw them out into the light...and guess what...they are not dirty nasty little thoughts. They are fun and beautiful. We may never get around to swapping but this first step is huge for me. Secondly, since exposing my thoughts to my wife, we've had long, close talks in bed. We've connected more deeply than ever before. And..who knew....THIS IS AWESOME FOREPLAY. I'm a typical guy...I never use to like to open up and admit feelings. But now...we talk like crazy and then for some reason we have unbelieveable sex. It's great. Finally, I've laid in bed and for once in my life felt peaceful. Just laying there watching my wife sleep, I felt peace. I think God IS peace and so therefore I've probably gotten closer to God in this last month or so since bringing up the swinging subject than I'd ever been in my life. Because of this closeness, I'm considering going back to church now...but I'm afraid I'll hear close minded crap that'll take me away from the peace I feel I've found so I'm not sure what I'll do.

All of this is just my feelings on the subject...Sorry I may have rambled a bit but when people go off on religion...well...I don't know...just thought I should chime in.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

All:

There appears to be a number of people on this site who profess being “Christians” and have justified hard swinging within the context of their faith. I raised the doubt that one could participate in this part of the Lifestyle and justify it within the context of the original Greek and Hebrew.

I don't know the Greek and Hebrew texts. What I do know, however, is that I need a religion that makes sense. I'm sorry, but if it doesn't click with what I already know to be true in my own heart, I can't follow it. I'm sure that sounds dangerous, but the human heart was invented long before paper. The Bible is not my salvation. It is an aid, a reference manual. But it's not as detailed as humans apparently need it to be. The rest is left up to common sense.

I'm terrible about taking direction. I throw out instruction manuals after a cursory glance (often to my chagrin 2 hours later). I HATE politics and beaurocracy and idiotic rules that exist solely for their own sake. I won't simply take medication that is prescribed to me "as directed". I NEED to know WHY things are the way they are. If I am told that I can't take this particular medication with meals because it deactivates it...THEN I will most certainly comply. But don't ask me to just shut up and do as I'm told. I just can't stand being condescended to in that way. I mean, who the hell do these doctors think they are anyway? They didn't ask any questions, they don't seem to care, they just want to medicate you and get you the hell out of their office so they can see the next patient. Insecurity? Simple pig-headedness? I dunno. All I know is, I need to know the reasons for doing something. Simply following the rest of the sheep is not good enough for me. I have to know that I'm not blindly following a bunch of lemmings who are leaping to their deaths a 1/4 mile ahead.

Originally Posted by Sean2Come

Thus far, all I have read are opinions in which some fairly large leaps are made from the original text to an interpretation which is way out of context but does fit the respondent’s personal preferences. I have yet to read an intellectually persuasive argument citing NT scripture whereby the text directly gives a Holy Okeedokee to swapping.

I do not believe it is in there, however, a lot of definitions to marriage as one man, one woman and not straying from your spouse (sexually or emotionally) are readily available without having to make the same intellectual stretch expressed by most of y’all.

In the same breath, I acknowledge that some of the advice offered to my original thread may prove useful and is appreciated.

Thanks and good luck.

Sean

If you're looking for that 11th commandment: "Thou shalt exchange spouses with one another.", y'ain't gonna find it. But the fact is, there is nothing to condemn it either. Every instance of adultery/infidelity that you see in the Bible is accompanied by deceit and dishonesty, disrespect, and lack of restraint. There is a lack of consent. Swinging simply does not fit that profile. Swinging requires complete brutal honesty, respect for one's self and others, and kindness. And when it comes to restraint, we MUST act with self-control or not at all, otherwise we endanger ourselves, our spouses, and the marriages of others. Excessive drinking and drug use are (for most) taboo, and an immediate deal-breaker for us. Evidence that our swing partners are not living a balanced and healthy lifestyle is also a turn-off. We encourage those in unstable relationships or with inner conflicts to avoid swinging and work on these problems.

And in fact, I should not be arguing my points so much to you because of this. Although it sounds like I needn't be worried about convincing you to swing I do worry that I might inadvertantly convince someone else who would be more easily swayed by my argument - by any argument! - to justify swinging...just because they really, really, really wanna. So, to that end, here's my disclaimer: this argument is not a rubber stamp, people! It won't work for you unless you actually believe it to be true. I happen to believe it, but it took me many years to come to the understanding that I have. If you like, I'll start you off where I started with a single question: "Why is adultery wrong?"

[robel12550]

Can we stop talking about this? Fornication is a super set of adultery. Adultery isn't necessarily "wrong" unless you believe it to be so. Swingers are adulterers though. So, according to the mathematical proof (lol), a swinger is "wrong" if that person believes it to be so.

On the other hand, the "Bible" is a collection of stories written over hundreds of years by many people truly unknown (except for maybe Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John or their ghost writers) who we're not really certain wrote it directly from God's will UNLESS -- here we go again -- we BELIEVE it to be so. No empirical proof yet that the "Bible" was truly written as every minister/priest/rabbi says it was. And did I forget to mention that the "Bible" has so MANY different versions, which one is the "true" one? (Being raised a Catholic, it use to be the Duane Bible, yet I heard they just came out with another variation. Sounds a little George Orwellian to me. The Church should have never changed the prayers from the original Latin. Once everyone knew what was being said, they started to decide to throw another steak on the barbie instead of show up in the pews. There's something to be said for "mysticism". lol)

But enough of that.

Intuition, my dear (with regards to Mr. Intuition), with your kind indulgence, can we talk about something a little more interesting (at least to me) related to your first reply to this post? In particular, the aspect of "manipulation" came up. In your opinion, where do you draw the line between "education" and "manipulation"? Though I'm sure my wife would like to lay claim to being the more adventurous of the two of us, I'm usually the one to venture forward in many areas. (And this doesn't precisely relate to swinging. There's a story about scuba diving that could be told.) But how does one determine whether you're "coaxing" too much rather than trying to address concerns? If after a couple drinks, someone tries to talk another person who usually doesn't sing in public but who they know is a very good singer into performing karoake, is that manipulation or an assist to realize their true potential? Would it be more "honorable" if the drinks weren't in play? Or is that person being manipulative? (And, granted, if the person trying to get the singer to sing was hoping that person to fail, I would consider that being destructively manipulative.)

After that is determined, since "swinging" from a "traditional relationship" point of view isn't something the average person/couple would consider engaging in, isn't there a certain degree of education or manipulation effectively required to move a couple into the swinging lifestyle? In other words, are true swingers only those who just wake up in bed together one morning and gleefully say in unison, "Gee, we should swing!?"

(By the way, anyone can chime in.)

Hasn't it basically been in most swingers experience a situation where one of a couple gets the idea to pursue it then effectively talks it over with the other partner to address concerns they both might have?

[Chicup]

I really wish I could have fun in this thread but I gave up my Christianity sitting in chruch (by my self, I used to go every morning) in 3rd grade.

Might as well argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by robel12550

Can we stop talking about this? Fornication is a super set of adultery. Adultery isn't necessarily "wrong" unless you believe it to be so. Swingers are adulterers though. So, according to the mathematical proof (lol), a swinger is "wrong" if that person believes it to be so.

Whatev. You say tomato...

Originally Posted by robel12550

Intuition, my dear (with regards to Mr. Intuition), with your kind indulgence, can we talk about something a little more interesting (at least to me) related to your first reply to this post?

Yeah, let's do that. I've vented. I feel better now.

Originally Posted by robel12550

In particular, the aspect of "manipulation" came up. In your opinion, where do you draw the line between "education" and "manipulation"? Though I'm sure my wife would like to lay claim to being the more adventurous of the two of us, I'm usually the one to venture forward in many areas. (And this doesn't precisely relate to swinging. There's a story about scuba diving that could be told.) But how does one determine whether you're "coaxing" too much rather than trying to address concerns? If after a couple drinks, someone tries to talk another person who usually doesn't sing in public but who they know is a very good singer into performing karoake, is that manipulation or an assist to realize their true potential? Would it be more "honorable" if the drinks weren't in play? Or is that person being manipulative? (And, granted, if the person trying to get the singer to sing was hoping that person to fail, I would consider that being destructively manipulative.)

We all need a kick in the ass at times to see past our own failings. That's what's so great about being married; your spouse is able to remain objective and give you those reality checks to keep you between the lines. The difference between manipulation and education is intent. If the person who prodded the friend (under the influence of liberal amounts of alcohol) onto the stage did it because he knew she would truly benefit from the experience and was encouraging her, as a good friend should, to grow as a person, then there is nothing wrong with that. And a couple of drinks won't hurt. However...EVERYbody's seen what can happen when some drunken slob get's hold of a microphone. It's hideous and painful to witness/hear. A good friend wouldn't allow someone to make a fool of themselves that way. Same with swinging: a couple of drinks to loosen your nerves = okay...sloppy drunk with seriously impaired judgment = NOT okay!

Now, if the friend is shoved onto the stage and the other person's primary concern is that he's going to be her agent when she becomes rich and famous, and he's going to make a shitload of money off her...well, that is manipulation, plain and simple. Again, same idea with swinging: if one partner is doing everything he can to convince his partner to swing for his own personal gain (he wants to get down to it and (finally) get some strange pussy), and the other partner's feelings and needs come second to his wants (notice key words: 'wants' and 'needs'), this is clearly wrong. You must question who you are thinking of most. It needs to be about your partner, not you.

Originally Posted by robel12550

After that is determined, since "swinging" from a "traditional relationship" point of view isn't something the average person/couple would consider engaging in, isn't there a certain degree of education or manipulation effectively required to move a couple into the swinging lifestyle? In other words, are true swingers only those who just wake up in bed together one morning and gleefully say in unison, "Gee, we should swing!?"

I think some people are just wired that way, yes, but for most of us I think it involved a lot of "social deprogramming". The mainstream thinks we're brainwashed, likely, but having come from dead-centre of the mainstream, it just feels to me like I woke up from a bad dream. It would be really interesting to get some accurate stats of swingers that included personality traits and genetics, etc. Typically, from what I gather, swingers are not stupid or gullible people. Anyway, this social deprogramming I mentioned took me many years, and it felt like a deep-level detoxification of my whole self. Now that I'm here, I'm loving it. It feels like being able to breathe finally. But I remember a time when I thought I was "healthy", and had lived so long with these toxic views on life and survival, that I didn't even realize how bad off I was. I didn't even know what it was like to feel this honest.

Originally Posted by robel12550

Hasn't it basically been in most swingers experience a situation where one of a couple gets the idea to pursue it then effectively talks it over with the other partner to address concerns they both might have?

Usually this is how it happens, yes. But it requires patience and trust that your partner will trust you enough to understand that you're not trying to hurt him/her with this suggestion. It's supposed to be a gift, not an askance. The problem is, our reluctant partners are so jaded and suspicious of others that they wonder, "What's the catch?"

[sereneiders]

Sean2come:

I am not Christian but I hope this doesn't deprive my 2 cents from it value.

I am pretty sure that many Christians are able to stick to their faith while accepting things that at first glance are contradictory with The Bible (and the same can be said about Muslims and the Coran, or with any other religion).

Without wanting to be disrespectfull, I am trying to figure out God explaining through the prophets who wrote The Bible, by then, all the subtle mathematical conceps supporting cuantic physics that He had to take into account in the Genesis first day to ensure His toughts could become matter. Then I imagine all these people unable to understand a word from these prophets, and turning their back on them (perhaps He tried and then He said "ok, next time I'll make them brighter", and choose to simplify a little bit).

You may say "well, cuantic physics arent mentioned in The Bible, thus it has nothing to do with the world as He meant it to be", even when you wouldn't be able to read this post if the world were not resembling to some extent what the cuantic physic theories says. Or you may say (and I'd preffer this explanation), as the human being evolves and dig deeper to understand the nature of our world, He is reshaping the entire universe to keep the challenge for us. After all He is mighty enough as to do this.

In any case, this excercise purpose is to point out that your faith (and anyone's else faith, whatever it is, including mine) precedes our interpretations. You choose to rely on The Bible, word by word, as if God meant His words to be followed literally instead of, let say, poetically, and as far as I know, there's no clue on The Bible regarding the way the words should be followed. If there were such a clue, then there wouldn't be so many Christian churches with their own subtle differences of interpretation. Other people choose to follow the same words poetically, and then it doesn't matter which version to take as the source.

You already have your own mindset, your own deffinitons for what's right and what's wrong. Even for what could become a conflict, like deciding if "hard" swinging is right or wrong, or the lesser conflict "soft" swinging could bring to your life, you find yourself amused by the idea but you want to find out the final word in The Bible as to be able to be in peace with yourself.

This is something very personal. You cannot challenge people to help you make your mind about something. You cannot challenge people to force them make their minds about something.

But with all of this, now I have a doubt. How would you correlate "soft" swinging with the commitment "you shall not wish other man wife"? Do you honestly believe that after engaging in soft swinging you wont wish something more? Or you'd interpret the commitment by limiting it meaning?

In the other hand, you didn't told your own wife about your idea. I believe she is as much Christian as you are, and knowing she may have principles that could have to do with her own understanding of the religion and God rules, you preffer to... tempt her against her own faith?

Excuse me, but if you're coherent about your faith, it doesn't care too much if you find something to rely on in The Bible justifying your attitude, this could be your worst sin, even worster than having intercourse with another woman: to fullfill your own flesh desires you're up to sacrifice your wife soul, without even telling her?

Then, you either choose to be more tolerant when judging yourself and the people around you under the light of The Bible words, or you'd have to apply the same rule you use on others to measure your behavior.

The people who already answered you about the way they dealt with the religion and swinging may be wrong when stretching God's words, but they choose to be plain honest with their spouses, they choose to expose the darker sides of their souls to their spouses, and they were brave enough to take a look at their spouses soul's darker side, accept it. They activelly did what God encouraged us all to do, to give up ourselves, to give up our selfishness for love, to accept people for what they are, to forgive, and to leave to his mercy the judgment role. They all will be able to stand and face Him in their judgment day, telling Him they dared to choose their way to follow His words and His lead, insthead of speculating by making the most conservative and safe interpretation of His words to ensure their place in heaven.

And if God were up to release their hands, pushing them away, or sending them to the hell (which BTW isn't mentioned in The Bible) because He considers them sinners, well, then He'd be proving He doesn't follow His own standards, and God would be the one who doesn't deserve their company. And whatever place they were going, I'd preffer to be with them.

I know this is a challenging statement, a blasfemy, but I stick to my word.

Should God, tomorrow, change His mind about whats right and whats wrong, appearing Himself to all of us to tell us, for example, that we have to kill all the baldy people around the world, then the blind followers of his words would have to kill me after I shave my head. I already know whats right and whats wrong. A lot of what I know comes from His words (even when not being Christian, I embrance a lot of the Christian values and I learned from them), but it wouldn't care for me. I'd hate myself if I were to do something I know is wrong just because of my fear. And I am pretty sure that, by following His word, a lot of Christians would shave their heads as well.

We know what's right and what's wrong. We, and not God, are responsible for our actions, and for our lack of action. Who knows? Perhaps this is just another test God put us through: "would you dare to do what's right, even if it were against My words"?

Let your wife know what you're into, dare to show her your soul darkest side, dare to bet your love for her, so far, was enough as for her to accept you with your darkest side, dare to ask to know her soul darkest side and prove you love her enough as to accept it. Do what you know is the right thing to do. After this, you may or may not engage in swinging, it doesn't care, but you'd do what swingers already did to be able to swing (or chose not to swing on solid grounds). But at this point I am pretty sure you'd interpret the same words in a very different way.

[dayhiker]

Hi newandexcited,
That's a neat story. I agree with you that you'd find quite a few close minded people in the church. But I have also found some people that truely do have the love of God. I'd just ask God to bring one of those believes with love and mercy in their heart your way. I've asked a similar thing recently. I'm hoping God brings some people by and we can take the next step of meeting and worshiping together. I too want to keep that peace your talking about.
blessings
dayhiker

Originally Posted by newandexcited

Finally, I've laid in bed and for once in my life felt peaceful. Just laying there watching my wife sleep, I felt peace. I think God IS peace and so therefore I've probably gotten closer to God in this last month or so since bringing up the swinging subject than I'd ever been in my life. Because of this closeness, I'm considering going back to church now...but I'm afraid I'll hear close minded crap that'll take me away from the peace I feel I've found so I'm not sure what I'll do.
.

[robel12550]

Originally Posted by intuition897

The difference between manipulation and education is intent.

As is usually the case, we're on the same page in many things here. The problem I have is that I've read a fair number of postings on forums where people have defined others actions as "manipulative" without (albeit in my opinion) really knowing the true intent of the person supposedly doing the manipulation. Granted that a forum like this is constricted by the technical limitations of the media of communications. I would think judgement about intent could be warned against, but not implied that it was actually done by any poster since their intent really isn't known. (I would like to think that forums are effectively for the helping of others rather than the tearing up. Yet sometimes I feel I've read too many vindicative messages that weren't necessary.)

Originally Posted by intuition897

I think some people are just wired that way, yes, but for most of us I think it involved a lot of "social deprogramming". The mainstream thinks we're brainwashed, likely, but having come from dead-centre of the mainstream, it just feels to me like I woke up from a bad dream. It would be really interesting to get some accurate stats of swingers that included personality traits and genetics, etc. Typically, from what I gather, swingers are not stupid or gullible people.

Too bad Kinsey isn't around anymore. Then again, many "professionals" questioned his statistical findings. Considering the underground nature of the community, it's highly unlikely that accurate information would be obtained (at least in the U.S.). And how would it really be classified? For example, the CBS (no plug intended) series "Tuesday Night Book Club" advertised an upcoming episode where the very well off husband in the group proposes a "key" swapping evening. I'm wondering if they'll call that "swinging" and how it will actually be handled? (Or whether it will be cut from the series.) Would a "swingers" study include such an event in their stats or not because it might be effectively hidden from an "organized" swing community like this or Swing Lifestyle or whatever? In other worlds, for all the identifiable swingers out there, there are probably uncountable others who have engaged in the same activities.

Originally Posted by intuition897

It's supposed to be a gift, not an askance. The problem is, our reluctant partners are so jaded and suspicious of others that they wonder, "What's the catch?"

Good thought and applicable. In essence though, in trying to discussion engaging in this lifestyle or any issue in a relationship which isn't automatically agreed upon, it would be advisable to constantly test the aspect of whether the "pro" party of the idea is apply the ethical intent to their side of the discussion. As usually, I'll personally try to be mindful of that in my dealings. (Now honey, about that boat I want....) :rollseyes

[uandusforfun]

Sean2come I and the husband are new to the swinginging but not to the board. We have learned to listen to what so many have lived and learned and have come to rely on their advise and experience and has had such an impact on our understandings of the swingers as they {we} call ourselves. We have learned and we have enjoyed.
OK...my point.... YOU just WANT someone to pat you on the back and tell YOU that it is fine go for it....ONLY YOU can accept what you believe and what is right or wrong

[Alura]

Sean2come wrote:

I raised the doubt that one could participate in this part of the Lifestyle and justify it within the context of the original Greek and Hebrew.

Jesus spoke Aramaic, Sean. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the Greek and Hebrew. It's different.

Mr. Alura