church

[good times]

Originally Posted by azmichael36

I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

Isn't that kind of like taking driving lessons from a blind man?

[Paphian]

Interesting discussion, and one that I'm staying (mostly) way out of

I would, however refer those interested to these two books for some interesting insights:

The End of Faith, by Sam Harris

and

The Baptizing of America, by Rabbi James Rudin

The first will really make you think (and the book is not long, but it also isn't easy) about just what the implications of faith are in the modern age. The second will give you an interesting non-christian insight into what's going on in the USA of late. I recommend both highly, even though I'm not done with Rabbi Rudin's book quite yet.

[dayhiker]

I see some more interesting posts have been made. I've studied the Bible and history as much as if not more than most have. I don't find the Bible has a problem with swinging as its talked about on this site. Only doing it with consent and love.

The acsetisism that lead the church to make sex the most evil thing in human exisitance I beleive has its roots not in the Jewish/Jesus/apostles sayings but in Greek gnostisism. The Greeks said the physical world was evil and the spiritual world was good. Jewdism and Christianity said God created every thing good and man very good. Ya, man fell into sin, but people are still created in the image of God. Plus the Bible teaches not that the body is evil but that God will redeem the body in the resurrection. The body of sin of the flesh is not the physical body but the evil nature that is in man. Its out of that heart Jesus said that somes evil fruit.

Paul said I'm convinced in the Lord Jesus that everything is inheriantly clean. The poeple that were hung up over all kinds of petty rules Paul called weak. Its interesting that as I've watched the church saying ,the last few years, that for a man to look at a woman is adultery, has lead from I'm observation to women in the church are becoming weak as Paul used this work in 1 Cor. and Rom.

No, my studies the Biblical words saying that almost all sexual acts are sin is from the the church redefinomg the words from what they mean when they were written and liberated Christians are going back to what they meant when they were orginally written.

I hope that all comes across in love.
dayhiker

[azmichael36]

Well, I’m pretty sure a Priest will have a greater understanding of “Christianity.” Sorry, a worthless liberal arts degree certainly doesn’t make an expert. It doesn't even help grammar! The people at the unemployment office know that.

[dayhiker]

Originally Posted by azmichael36

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.

True you need more than a liberal arts english course to konw what is going on in the Bible.
I'm not sure who your refering to here. Spoomonkey has a Bible degree and I do also. I've almost of got a masters degree as well.

What do you need to know? You need to know history cause even marriage isn't what it was in Bible times. Marrying for love only goes back 200 years. The goverment having the say in who is married and who isn't goes back to Martin Luther. Even the Roman Cathlic Church before that only had partial say over who was married and who wasn't. Thru most of human recorded history it was the parants who had the say in who got married. Those marriages weren't just for the couple either. They were political and economic marriages. That's not just rules that we read about in our history classes either. Marriages were a way for a family(clan/tribe) to extend their network of protection and economic trade. This was true of all faimlies. Even the terms: wife, concubine and handmadian didn't so much describe their relationships as their economic status.

Then you need to know ancient languages. This is a weakness of mine, I'll admit. But I do have lexicons and a book case full of referances books. So for example I grew up with the definition of fornication being pre-marrital sex. Well, not one lexicon says the meaning of fornication is pre-marital sex. It turns out fornication is a Latin word that Jerome used in his Latin Volgate transation of the Bible. In Jeromes time fornication meant prostitute. Then I go to the Greek lexicons and what do they say of the greek word? They say illegal sex, prositution.

Who am I to beleive? The church that told me a wrong definition of what the the porneia means or the Greek lexicons?

its a simple for me. I'll follow Jesus that got mad at the religious leaders that put burdens on the people that even they didn't carry.
dayhiker

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by azmichael36

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.

No, azmichael I most certainly do not. I know in my heart and soul that sex is not evil, and it in itself cannot corrupt man. Anyone who tells me otherwise gains my sympathy. And that has included church leaders. It shows a lack of ability to think outside the Christianity box, and if there is anyone who absolutely, 100% needs to be a pro-active thinker, it should be church leaders, fearlessly thinking ahead and pondering such problems. Ideally, the only people who should be qualified to lead a church should be people who have a committment to the betterment of mankind, a gift for far-reaching vision, and a burning desire - and ability - to share that vision with the masses. And a touch of humility, too. They need to realize that their position is one of great responsibility and influence, so it becomes a burden to bear when they must admit that they can and will make mistakes. And these mistakes, because of their influence, will hurt more people than if they were one of the followers.

[txduo2000]

Originally Posted by azmichael36

Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?”

HA! Not!

Now, I do not have a theological degree, and have never studied religion in any sense other than sitting in the congregation listening to the sermon, but I will say that it is my humble and probably not very enlightened opinion that preachers, ministers, priests, and all other "men of the cloth" are simply just that ... men (i.e., human) and prone to the same sins and mistakes as we are all. Because they carry a little more education in the area of religion and hold a title that assumes they are a little closer to God than the general masses, does not, in my opinion, get them any closer to God than the rest of us. Basically, while I carried faith for a long time, I do not believe in nor advocate "organized religion". I do not believe in sanctimonious, judgmental and self-righteous people telling others how they should live. I believe that churches have become more of a social structure than a faith-filled one, putting far too much emphasis on money and status than in the humble church days of old. I believe that many church-goers, preachers and the like sin in horrible ways sometimes more devastating than what non-church-goers do, and veil it under their "religion". I know people who have been "saved" and now perform every task with a prayer, but these same people are more harsh to their fellow man, more judgmental, more critical ... and THAT in itself wars with MY ideals of religion most of all.

I will be honest; I have struggled with my views on religion for as long as I have known who and what God is. Since beginning swinging, I have refused to "practice" religion in any sense - I do not go to church, I do not really even pray anymore. In a sense, swinging has been at war with my faith and my Christian beliefs. It's like I have made a conscious decision that since swinging wars with what I have been taught, I feel like I am a hypocrite if I practice religion AND swing ...

However, recently, I have been doing a great deal of thinking on the subject. Unfortunately, I think I have started to lean more towards the "Big Bang" and "Theory of Evolution" rather than the "Theory of Creation". :rollseyes Kidding ... Creation has been ingrained into my head since I was a very small child, so I am sure that the idea of God will never fully leave me. I will just say that I am so disappointed in the terrible things that occur on a daily basis in this world that I am constantly left questioning the intelligence in believing in a Greater Good. So many people who live under the cloak of God are just not good people down deep. And I do not care to be associated with that type of person.

But most of all, I hate seeing really good people negatively affected by the world around them on a regular, systematic basis ... and where is God in these instances? Oh yeah, he's over there turning a blind eye to the child who is molested every single day for the last 8 years of her life, or he's allowing a serial killer to devastate the lives of 30 families before finally being caught, or he's looking the other way when a series of devastating hurricanes hit and destroy so many people's lives and livelihoods ... the list goes on, but I think those scenarios show how I feel.

I do not want to get into a big war of the religions, but I just want to say that for me, the bottom line is live the best life I can, hurt no one knowingly, be kind as I can to my fellow man, treat others as I would like to be treated, don't cheat, lie or steal, do what I can to help others less fortunate when I can, raise my kids to be decent human beings with these same basic philosophies, and just hope I, my family and other decent human beings can simply get though this thing we call life. If there's a heaven on the other end, then I hope I lived my life well enough to gain entry. And if I didn't, then I will try to remember to pack a bathing suit on my way down south. :rollseyes

[dayhiker]

Txduo,

I really enjoyed your post. It’s the thoughts of a man who is thinking and trying to understand one of the most complicated issues for a Christian. And being honest about it too. I don’t claim to have the answer, I do think I can give you something to think about and I hope help you to the next level.

As I said this topic is very complicated. There is no simple sentence that says, “OH here is the answer to that question.” Thus only those that are willing to wade thru a detailed thought can even really begin to know if there is an answer. Actually I have heard one simple answer. “There is no answer.” That position isn’t acceptable to me, personally.

For most of my Christian life I thought there was no way God could have anything to do with evil, either natural or moral evil. When this topic came up I always said it was man’s sin that was the cause.

Then I finally came to grip with God created this world and knew what was going to happen when he created it. I still don’t think God caused any one to do a specific act of evil, but God knew the act would happen before He created the world and He still went ahead and created it any ways. If God really is good, then even with the evil in this world one has to conclude that this is the best world God can create. That of course is no comfort. Since we can’t deny evil and live in reality one would think this leaves us in a very depressing conclusion.

However, there seems to be one way out. That is to say that this present evil will create something very good in the future that can’t be created any other way. Thus the answer is a faith answer. Some will blow the idea away on that bases.

What can God create this way that even He couldn’t do another way?
1. With a perfect world there wouldn’t be compassion, loyalty, a determination to overcome hard situation and those types of things.
2. If there is no test, would we really know what we are made of?
3. If there were no offenses would we learn how to love, how to forgive, etc.
4. If there wasn’t sin would we know the Love of God that he would become a man and die for us.
5. Without trails would we know how to be thankful in a deeper way.

Well, I think you get the idea. In a masters level class I wrote about 20 pages along this idea. Much more detailed. If any one wants to read what I wrote, email me at dayhiker@hotmail.com and I’ll resurrect the files.

dayhiker

[Charles]

Very interesting discussion! I have had the privilege to attend university and complete three degrees a Bachelor of Arts in Comparative Religion, Master of Theology and most recently a Master of Counselling Psychology. The first and last degrees were in secular universities and the second a Christian university (total of eleven years – I know, I’m crazy!!! But I love being crazy!!). I mention this not because I feel I’m an expert, but to point out that issues of faith is much more involved than having the “education” or looking in the Sacred Writings for answers. I am no closer to the “truth” than I was 11 years ago. Nothing is absolute, and life is a journey of discovery. The writings in the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures are peoples quest for meaning - discover. What we have in Scripture began as oral stories eventually they were written down. All of us are engaged in the pursuit of meaning.
Does the Christian Bible say anything about being bi or a play couple? NO! You will not find these issues in the Bible. There is negative reference to homosexuality, but only in a few places. There is much more about divorce, than about homosexuality! Most churches today accept divorce don’t they? There was a time when divorce was immoral. People were together “until death do us part” (lucky when the “death do us part” statement come into effect, people lived only to a very young age! And there were no CSI people!) Did the church change its mind regarding divorce? Something else to keep in mind, those who wrote about homosexuality did not understand or study God’s gift to humanity! We now understand more fully (well some what) that homosexuality is quite normal. Let’s face it, the unknown is very fearful for us — “There is nothing to fear but fear itself!” Fear drives us to do crazy thing!
It is also worth your while to read about other cultures where there is sharing of partners. In such cases there are well set boundaries, but they “swing” woops did I say swing!!!! When whole cultures do this, we have to ask ourselves, “Is this whole culture wrong?” Hey, if a whole culture of people understand it as being fine, well, guess what? That helps my understanding.
One last thought. It’s been helpful for me in my own personal journey and in working with clients, to understand religion in terms of Spirituality. Religion puts up walls that name who’s in and who’s out-- that is never helpful in any way. Such understanding is not exclusive to religious groups, but I think we do this all the time. Can you be a play couple and a Christian — I think you can be both, however, if there are questions raised for you, you need to use you God given gifts of Reason, tradition, and scripture figure it out. Ultimately, you have to make sense of your world! Thanks for you rear.... woops ear! :-)

[intuition897]

Beautifully put txduo and dayhiker!

[bill&sabrina]

TNT was close, but still no cigar. Hell I am not even going to give you A direct answer to your question, that is right. I am however going to give you the right advice in finding it. Pray. Since you believe, you know that only God has the answer you are looking for.

[sepacouple]

BTW- Have you ever thought how odd it is that preists conduct pre-marital and marraige counseling yet they themselves are not allowed to marry.

[kandkb]

Thanks Charles! Im the one that got this whole discussion started and have read everyones input. Yours by far have been the most helpful. No disrespect to the others.Im really amazed though at the how people feel about God. They seem to either not believe in him or have hard feelings i guess you could say. I dont think that any denomination has it exactly right but they all try to understand what God was saying and that has to give them brownie points at least.I really thought that somewhere in scripture there was something said about swinging.I know that in the old testament men could have many wives and that was my argument about swinging. Just recently I was told that in the new testament that all changed and God didnt want people to do that. He wanted there to be only one man and one woman in marraige.Im far from a bible scholar so Im just going by what I was told. That got me to thinking deeper about swinging.I only want to do what God sees as good . If you say that swinging is not mentioned in the bible , Ill take you say so. You have way more deplomas than I do. lol. All i can say for now is that I really wish more people had more faith in God in knowing that everything has a reason and he knows things that we cannot understand. Thats where faith comes in.I will keep trying to find the answers the best I can about my topic and pray. Just remember everyone, we were created in Gods image and thats good of course but the devil loves to tell us lies in our minds and the only way to protect ourselves is with the understanding of the scriptures.Ill keep checking on this thread . Im sure Ill get a rise out of someone. lol

[dayhiker]

K+kb, I like your attitude. To leep seeking God is to be on the way to finding Him. I've sought God all my life and have found faith in Him to be a great blessing. Its in seeing God while reading the Bible that I started to see that what I was being taught about what the Bible said about sex didn't match what I read in the Bible.

There are some that are made at the church for that, I just find it sad. I see
it part of the way our whole country is going. More and more laws. More and more ways to take money and freedom away from the people.

Gal.5:1 says - For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery.
dayhiker

[WesternSwing]

In the long run you have do decide for yourself what is sinful and what isn't. It was once said that all religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few. Organized religions are based on other people's ideals and interpretations of what someone else said.

For us sin is anything that creates emotional or physical harm to anybody else. Beyond that simple rule it is simply other people judging you based on their own biases and fears.

So don't worry about what your priest says, or what your neighbors say, or your family. This is your life, not theirs. They do not live your life for you, therefore they should not have a say-so in how you live it. As long as your actions do not harm them or anyone else then you are a good person and you are not sinning.

Mr. WS