Christian Swingers?

[Deptydog]

My perspective on this issue stems from several areas.

First, I am not a christian, although I used to be one. I once got into a long discussion/debate with a missionary about sex without the benefit of marriage. My stance was that if sex was created by God, then who are we as mere mortals to say that having sex is a sin. And if sex was created by satan, then wouldn't God prohibit sex for any reason but procreation? the discussion was longer and more convoluted than that, but you get the idea.

Second, I live in Florida. Now, if the south is the Bible Belt, then florida is the buckle. It seems like there's a church on every other corner here.

Third, I don't really care what religon a person or couple is. The Mrs. and I have swung with christians, atheists, agnostics, and a muslim couple. Never did theology intrude upon our relationships. As long as someone doesn't try to preach to me, their personal religious beliefs are none of my business. I don't preach my beliefs to others , but I will answer questions when asked.

My Mrs. is more tolerant of christians. I think that stems from her upbringing, so the above comments are only from my point of view.

I should explain what I mean by "tolerant". I will admit that I get bothered by folks who "wave the bible" and tell me to have a "blessed day", and hollar out hallelujah when they are walking into Wal-Mart (this really happened to me once). I don't paint all christians with the same broad brush, but the majority of christians I've met and known have been huge hypocrites. Not all, mind you. I have known many who were nice, fine people. I have known other nice, fine people who were probably christian, but since it never came up, I don't really know to which theology they subscribe.

Not that all that is out of the way, do I thing swinging is a sin? No. Do I think that "christian swingers" is an oxymoron? No. If you can show me a "mainstream" religon that doesn't condemn swinging (except Wicca), I'd be surprised. But there is a fundamental difference there, isn't there. The difference is between being a christian (meaning believer/follower in the teachings of Christ) and being a member of a religon. Religon is created by man, with all the prejudices and baggage that we humans carry around with us.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. I'm still new to this forum, but I just thought I'd add my 1/50th of a dollar.

[dayhiker]

Deptydog,
I really like your attitude. I think the church needs more people with an attitude like you have.
I'd agree with what I understand your prespective to be about sex. God created it. As long as we use sex in a way that doesn't hurt other people or as long as we use sex in a loving way then I don't see any wrong with it. So I'd add to your your point if we use sex with a good motive and consider the other persons wellfare than its from God. If we are using sex to hurt then its from Satan ( I could have said from the bad in our own heart). If say a guy uses flattery to deceive a girl into having sex with him then I'd say its not OK with God and Satan is the one that is happy. If a being as evil as he is can be happy!
I think you were reading the Bible or understanding the nature of God better than that missionary.
For some reason most people in authority (not just church leaders) aren't willing to stand up and say (insert some sexual activity) is OK if its not hurting anyone. I'm willing to make that hurt more than physical hurt. We should be willing to stop if its emotional pain our activity is causing too. Its back to the motivation again. Jesus always brought things back to the motivation. If a partner wants to swing and wants to do it in a way that is loving, then I think the one that is feeling emotional pain at the idea needs to find and see if they can deal with that cause. Be open and honest about the origin of the pain and see if they can get past it. Can they find some healing. If they just can't get past it then we still have to love them and not cause them more pain. We know not ever one seems to be able to deal with the past.

Anyways if you read this far, thanks, I just had to say the way I feel this.
I'm preaching to myself for the most part! Just smile and shake you head at me of that's what you feel like doing ... smile
dayhiker

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Deptydog

...but the majority of christians I've met and known have been huge hypocrites.

Wow. You sound just like Mr. intuition. lol This is his impression, too. I don't think he and the church got off on the right foot.

Originally Posted by Deptydog

The difference is between being a christian (meaning believer/follower in the teachings of Christ) and being a member of a religon. Religon is created by man, with all the prejudices and baggage that we humans carry around with us.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. I'm still new to this forum, but I just thought I'd add my 1/50th of a dollar.

No offense taken! You said it. There is a big difference between being Christian and being religious. Religion is us silly humans trying to organize God to fit into the neat, tidy little space we think He should fit in. Just doesn't work that way.

I don't believe anyone should pursue something that detracts from the fullness of their life. If one's 'religion' is starting to take away from one's quality of life, then it's time to rethink one's beliefs. And when I say quality of life, I mean the enriching or refining of one's self. If others like you less because of your religion, if you are offending others and pushing them away from God, or if you can't find any peace because you feel so much pressure to "perform" as a model Christian, something isn't right.

Being passionate about one's beliefs is a good thing, but that passion does need to be tempered with an ounce of common sense if we want to keep from pissing everyone else off. Including God. I can just hear Him slapping His forehead and growling, "These kids are driving me crazy."

This is pretty simple stuff, folks. It all boils down to the Golden Rule. If we could all just focus on that, the rest would follow.

Originally Posted by HappyPeople

I believe that I said that playing with Christians probably wouldn't work for us. I believe that I would be somewhat uncomfortable. Knowing that someone is a person of faith kinda puts me on guard a bit; I feel like I should watch what I say closely as not to offend them. While they probably wouldn't get offended by me, it's just a feeling that I get and it's hard to shake.

I say this meaning no disrespect to persons of faith... It's mostly a "me" problem, not them. I wasn't raised in a home with a belief system nor do I know many people who are religious so when I am around them, I kinda tense up a bit.

Well, it's too bad that it makes you as uncomfortable as it does. But everyone has their preferences, and that's what it's all about: freedom to choose. Thanks for replying, Happy.

[DBL D]

Hi Everyone!

Great thread...truly.

I was raised as a Christian and have always been befuddled by the attitudes among other "Christians". I think what it may come down to is that most of them just decide to err on the side of caution, and then take that message to the masses. The masses have either bought into it or they are as paranoid as can be about what may happen to them in the great tomorrow. Does God want paranoid people in the kingdom?

We don't really try to get into what our partners believe in, except for the clues we get from them. If it seems they are too interested in the dark part of sexual relations, we may not play with them again. I prefer to treat everyone with christian ideals and not judge them too harshly, as far as eternal life is concered. That isn't my job, thankfully.

I do appreciate what you all have contributed to this thread though as it shows a lot of thought has been given to the subject. It isn't one to be taken lightly. Ignorance is no excuse for the law.

If a couple decides that it is best for them to be monogamous, I'm in favor of that. That works for them and more power to them. I start having problems when people who haven't given much thought to this topic start legislating morality.

Since the Bible has been interpreted from the original language, it has to have been fraught with poorly constructed logic and translations, no matter the diligence of the translators. My early teaching had teachers that tried to look at the original words and tell their true meaning. "Agape Love" comes to mind for some reason, as well as the difference between fermented "wine" and unfermented. (Big point in our church.) The real deal is that your salvation is between you and your "god", whomever that may be. None of us really knows the truth. Everything has been so diluted and convoluted that one is left with basics to work with like: Love your neighbor as yourself, Do unto others as you would have them do to you, etc. I'm not so sure that the 10 commandments have been supplanted but I do think that people tend to misread the meanings.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this serious matter. (for Christians
anyway.)

Male D

[jstlkng]

I agree with those who have said this is a great thread...it truly is. Certaintly there are those who don't profess to be Christians who are reading this. As Christians we should ever be on the cutting edge of what its like to live a Christ like life. I was thinking this morning about the social aspects of swinging and how I should relate it to my Christianity. Following is my thoughts from a social event I attended recently:

First let me set the scene...many of you probably have never heard of a "Fish Camp". Fish Camps are nothing more than restuarants that specialize in southern style seafood dishes. But the Fish Camps aroung Belmont, NC are unique in some manner as opposed to other types of seafood restuarants. Primarily they are a social happening. The people who go there to eat come from every walk of life. But when you sit down at a table in one of these places with your SO or other friends, you are just as likely to strike up a conversation with the people at the table next to you. Because of the popularity of these places you usually have to stand in line to get a table and there is a free flow of conversation with others in the line. Those conversations are no more nor no less than conversations you might start at church, or if you meet someone at the mall, or maybe at a Friday night highschool football game. The catalyst that brings it all together is the unique food enjoyed there.

Now the Bible discusses food in various ways. Three lines of thought that come to mind are 1. Food as nourishment, 2. Food for enjoyment, and 3. Gluttony. In each of these only gluttony is stated to be an outright sin. Yet each is fraught with danger from contamination by germs caused by mishandling. Why people have even contracted deadly diseases from simply eating a simple meal. In order to enjoy this social activity most people wash their hands and eat properly prepared food. And all the while they are eating they are socializing with other humans, but they never take food off someone's plate other than their own without permission. They enjoy both the company and the food. No where does this constitute sinning.

Swinging for Christians is no less innocent when practiced as the social activity that it is. There is a lot of waiting in line and talking to others to get to know them. There is conversastion that takes place between individuals as others engage in sexual pleasure for all to observe. That sexual activity is taking place is no less nor no more sinful than eating in the other social setting. The dangers of sex are no more nor no less than those dangers that exist in eating food prepared out of your sight by people you never will get to meet. If fact, it may be less dangerous, especially if you wash your hands and use the proper prophylatics. And when the swinging is done as a loving, caring expression for physical enjoyment of all, then it becomes no more nor no less than any other social activity enjoyed by humans.

Enjoy the social activities God has provided for us without guilt or shame. Use the same cautions and precautions you would for any other social activity. Open you mind to the enjoyment of your partners pleasure and satisfaction and you will begin to understand those of us who find no problem with sharing each other sexually.

sweetnnasty had said in one of her posts: The only problem I seen with some of these posts is ppl not understanding the question... I didn't ask anyone to tell me what they think is wrong with it, but I did ask if there is anyone who is doing it and how they felt about it... Hopefully this will answer your question a little better and shed a little more light on why its not going to send either you or your husband to hell if you share each other with other people.

jstlkng

[Deptydog]

Thanks for the compliments gang. When I was a christian, I had pretty much the same attitude, but my opinions seemed to be in the minority. My reasons for leaving the church(es) are many and varied and that was just one of them.

When I was being raised, my parents made me go to mass on most sundays. I didn't want to go. It was an hour out of my week that I felt was a waste of time. So I was not raised to be religious. As an adult, after I left the catholic church (or was booted out for getting divorced...take your pick) I tried a couple of other denominations. I tried to approach them with an open mind as well as open eyes. All too soon, I was, I guess disillusioned is the proper word, with all of them. That's what led me to my current path. My beliefs in the "divinity" of the sexual act, if performed without the intent to cause harm, have not changed over the years. I still think that sex is a natural part of the experience of living. Mankind is the one who puts the prohibitions and restrictions on the rest of us.

[Gayle]

Thought this link would lend a little something to ya'lls conversation. I don't know how reliable it is, but it's an interesting read.

I'm about to start another thread about part of it.

R

[JoeB]

This is an area I am battling with myself. I am a Christian.
My wife passed away recently. While it had been many years since we had a swinging lifestyle, I still remember it well. Due to her medical problems, we had not had much of a sex life in a while.
Just last Friday I visited a single female I met on Swing Lifestyle and haven't felt that alive in years. I know that it would not be viewed in a postive life by my friends, especially where we plan take it (New Years at a Club, etc.).
So I guess for now, at least, I'll keep my new lifes separate.

[dayhiker]

JoeB,
That is neat that you had such a good experaince.
I can certianly understand your keeping it private. There isn't many
church people, let alone leaderst that can handle it. I pray this part of
your life will be blessed and a blessing to those you meet. It sure sounds
like you were a blessing to your late wife.

dayhiker

[Charles]

I have read much of the post regarding Christainity and swinging and sex. There are many levels of "culture" happeing here. It all seems rather narrow in scope (not to be mean). There is what the bible teaches, and what have been interputed ... example... Many think that adam and eve ate the "apple" well, there is nothing regarding apples in the story! However, over the years, hearing it was an apple, we begin to think, well it has to be an apple... and take it for granted. Church teaching, bible stories, have been over ladened by cultural understanding which is not necessary true. Just a thought.... it seems we are sharing "religions" at a very literal level... just my two cents... and by the way... "It was the apple in the tree that caused the sin, it was the pear on the ground!" Well, I def dont belive that either....

[Paphian]

Something is puzzling me in this whole thread. Just what definition of "christian" is being batted about?

Why do I ask? Well, at last glance, some 80% of the USA self-identify as "christian". But there are catholics, presbyterians, methodists, LDS, southern baptists, not-southern-baptist baptists, episcopalians, anglicans, AME, lutherans, jehova's witnesses, christian scientists, and I've given up trying to track all the various charismatics and evangelicals. All are (though many of them wouldn't agree the others are) christian sects.

For myself, I was raised presbyterian, then methodist, then did a lot of exploring (living three doors from a catholic church as a child and having lots of talks with a jesuit in residence there will get ya thinkin'). Ultimately I realized the error of my ways, and chucked the whole mess.

Seems to me that the majority of those (in the population at large, I've no real idea at present about here) who say they're "christian" (as opposed to identifying a particular sect to which they belong) tend on closer questioning to turn out to belong to some evagelical or charismatic group.

So I'm curious on a number of fronts. Two follow.

People bandy about bible verses like everyone has the same take on what they mean, yet that's manifestly untrue. Best way I know to start "discussions" amongst a group of clergyman is to claim a particular verse has a particular meaning. Are all y'all thinking that most people do take the same meaning from a given passage?

And in among all those verses are the usual old testament references (which are where lots of the strict stuff is). Dunno about y'all, but my personal take after years of regular church-goin' and who knows how many sunday school classes and "vacation bible school" was that the new testament was the "new covenant" and that meant the old one was obsolete. So what's up with runnin' back to the old one every time someone wants to make some theoretically moral point? Hell, if it were the "governing law", we'd all effectively still be jewish, right?

So I'm just askin', as this is one of the more civil conversations of the type I've yet seen on line. No offense intended. Fire away if ya like.

And since someone is bound to ask: I profess no faith at all. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. To be honest, every definition of god that I've ever seen as expressed by any organized religion is much too narrow, small, and mean-spirited to be one I could call "omni"-anything. Call me an agnostic. Call me an atheist if ya like. Just don't call me late to dinner.

[Spoomonkey]

Okay - I am in the mood to go ahead and post at length...

It might be the fact that my other chore tonight is painting... And I am taking a break...

It might be because I had some rather deep conversations with fellow Christians today and it was refreshing to be able to talk about something other than my sexual choices...

Here's a broad view - simplified - but helpful for those of you who ask "does the Bible have an issue with swinging?"

Just so you know, I tend to simplify things. It comes from years of working with youth. You can't get too deep and too "verse-y" or you lose them. And, honestly, that's fine with me. There is no reason to try to impress anyone by getting chapter and verse here. I will if need be...

Well - let's look at marriage. It all begins in Genesis... And I do mean ALL: Light, dirt, animals, marriage... It all begins there... God says about Adam and Eve that the two shall become one flesh. Historically, Christianity (and by that I mean most Catholic and Protestant sects - but certainly the largest part of Christian orthodoxy) has interpreted that to mean: SEX! You will marry and you will have sex - and that with one person. So that is it.

Let me ask you a question - do you really believe that the picture that God is painting when He says "one flesh" is really sex??? I mean - really? If you are married, you know that marriage is far more than that - it is bills, children, work, play, buying homes, planting bushes, deciding what to watch on TV...

For me - sex being the definition of "one flesh" seems to make marriage sort of trivial. I mean - if marriage is a 24 hour day - sex is 1/24th of that...

Right?

One flesh = sex = a very limited view of marriage...

And I don't buy it...

After all - the rest of the Old Testament is filled with Godly men - men who God Himself says are after his "own heart" - marrying many wives, having a ton of concubines, sleeping around on a whim and even buying a prostitute from time to time...

Could some of this have been sin in God's eyes?

Sure...

But certainly if it was really an issue, God would have pitched a serious bitch over it, but He was largely silent.

Why?

Simple...

Women were property - men the owners of that property. Did David sin with Bathsheba? Only in the sense that he stole property... Look it up...

The idea of not commiting adultery was the same idea as not planting different seeds in the same field. You have no idea what sort of crop is going to grow. The woman was the field - the man the farmer - and his seed was the only crop that was allowed to be planted... Keeping the bloodlines pure...

Of course, the man was pretty much free to plant that seed where ever he wished.

Now - fast forward to the New Testament. Jump right into the book of Galatians. Paul makes a pretty remarkable statement:

"There is no more Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female..."

In other words - there was a new radical equality now that Jesus had come - the plan of God accomplished - grace delivered - reconciliation given...

And why not?

The reason God wanted purity in the blood lines was to prove the heritage of Christ. That done - it lost its importance... But more significantly Women were no longer the "field" - men no longer the "farmer". Women had freedom to do with their bodies the same thing that men could do - which was to express themselves sexually.

Christianity then - is actually a champion religion of sexual freedom...

Now Chirstianity does frown on sexual immorality - and thank God it does! Sex can destroy lives if not handled correctly. It is a precious gift that we have been given. The marriage bed is not to be defiled - after all the marriage is the very "object lesson" of a healthy spiritual relationship.

But the Bible also teaches that the law can be summed up in this: love does no harm.

Let's contrast cheating with swinging - always a "hot topic". Swinging is a choice that a couple makes - in agreement. And the best swinging relationships are one that are actually deepened by the experience because of the trust and communication it takes to share your fantasies.

Cheating - on the other hand is to lie and hurt those who trust you.

So - which is the immorality that God warns against? The one that does no harm - or the one that does?

Or is God simply a cosmic buzz kill who simply wants to make our lives dull?

I, for one, take Jesus seriously when He says, "I come that you may have life - and have it to the full!" Since I have begun living under that faith, my life has been more rich, more abundant, and honestly that spiritual "grasp" has been stronger.

I know that lots of folks will poke holes in what I just wrote...

But, like I said, this is a very simple version of what I believe. Not intended to be a complete "theology of swinging" - simply intended to give people a little insight on how someone with an extensive background and a deep love for his faith can come to a place where he sincerely believes that swinging - a shared joy between a deeply in love husband and wife, can be okay.

I typically avoid these conversations - or make small observations - because I know that this is something that can cause a lot of needless debate. My only hope is that those who struggle with their faith - and their desire to swing - will not abandon one for the other - but sincerely, prayfully, faithfully persue the only things that - in my opinion - really matter: a deep relationship with God and a similarly deep relationship with the one who God made for them.

That - in a nutshell - is my belief.

Spoomonkey

[Paphian]

Very well said, Spoo.

In some ways I occasionally envy those of you with that strong a faith in a kind of wistful sort of way. While I'm comfortable with how I think about the world, it would be nice, every now and again, to be able to feel that certain about anything, almost as a sort of vacation.

Experience has taught me that's not to be, however. And except for those rare oments (and getting rarer all the time) I'm glad I'm the way I am. And I'm happy for those, as well, who can have a strong faith and not use it as a cudgel against others. On the other hand, it's truly sad to see just how many folks, regardless of their particular faith, seem to end up unhappy about so many other aspects of their lives because of aspects of (or statements by others of) that faith.

Seems to me that's not something any god would want.

[MulderNScully]

Hey there,

We're Christians--she's Luthern, I'm Pentecostal--and I agree we have the freedom in Christ to be swingers and still be believers in Christ.

There are two sites I want to recommend to anyone I think you'll enjoy:


The Freedom Guide

www.freedomguide.net

Christian Pro Erotic

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChristProErotic/


Mulder
(MulderNScully)