Swinging and Christianity

[lovedoctor]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

But, I will quote a scripture that sums up why I am comfortable with it and why I can swing without guilt on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday morning:

"Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

Spoomonkey

We are sure growing to love you Spoo!

[Lustman]

I am a Christian too but believe God gave us the ability to experience pleasure and not limit us to just one person

[dayhiker]

Lustman,
I'm curious if you studied the Bible to get that answer? Or did you
just feels God created men to get horny often when we are young
and society says we aren't to get married till 10 yrs later so God
wouldn't ask us to be celebate thru that period! Or something else?

dayhiker

Originally Posted by Lustman

I am a Christian too but believe God gave us the ability to experience pleasure and not limit us to just one person

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by djjwp

I refuse to subscribe to the guilt that organized religion uses to run their business. My relationship is a one on one relationship with God and just as I love my children and forgive them for all they do wrong, I know he does the same for me in all my “weaknesses”. :rollseyes

This is why although I was rasied Greek Orthodox, and my wife Southern Baptist, we both drifted to Paganism/Wicca. We strongly believe that too many don't practice the tolerance they preach. In Wicca it is:

Bide the Wiccan Law Ye Must,
In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,
Eight Words the Wiccan Rede Fulfill:
An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will.
And Ever Mind the Rule of Three:
What Ye Send Out, Comes Back to Thee.
Follow This With Mind and Heart,
And Merry Ye Meet, and Merry Ye Part.

You can't get much more tolerant then: An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will. Too much of Christianity was wrapped up in judging us about what we were doing instead of worrying about what they were doing.

So we don't have to reconcile our swinging with religion. But the Mrs. Southern Baptist upbringing creeps in sometimes, but even that is getting less and less these days.

Mr. WS

[disqreetcouple]

Well the problem is that Christianity is not based on Judgement unlike what you see today. Christianity is based on love. Read the Bible without question and you will see plenty of that. Here is the only kicker I have with the love quote out of the Bible. Are you saying that every time you swing it is out of love for the other person and not out of lust? I'm just asking because this is the part I struggle with on swinging and Christianity.

[Sexyone]

I was raised Catholic, but with all the nonsense going on in the Catholic Church, I now also keep my business with God just between the two of us.

I agree with those who say that whatever you do with your spouse is your
own business and no one should judge that. I also believe that what you do
on your own time and who you do it with is no one's business.

Life is much to short to worry about such things. I think God judges us by
how we treat each other and what's in our hearts, and we should be more
concerned about that than anything we might be doing in our sex lives.

Just my 2 cents.....

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by disqreetcouple

Here is the only kicker I have with the love quote out of the Bible. Are you saying that every time you swing it is out of love for the other person and not out of lust?

Absolutely not.

I have never loved any woman that I have "swung" with. I have liked a few of them quite a bit and occassionally developed friendships, but love? No.

The point is that love is the fulfillment of the law - i.e. "love your neighbor as you love yourself." In other words, I am not doing what I am doing out maliciousness or with any ill motivation.

I am not "coveting" my neighbors wife, because I have no intention of stealing her away. Further, I try to be very mindful of the "state of the union" of the couples we play with - are they solid? Are they in this for the right reasons? (Tough to know for sure, but certainly worth paying attention to)

I am not commiting "adultery", because everything is done within the boundaries and agreements that my wife and I have.

And you'd be amazed how many times we have "lost" a play night because we have ended up talking to new couples about the lifestyle, marriage, communication, rules, boundaries, etc.

"Loving your neighbor" doesn't mean "boning them." It means being sensitive to them - and realizing that they are not just some random body that you bumped into - they have to take the experience, good or bad, home with them. And it will be a part of them and their marriage - just as it will be a part of us.

C.S. Lewis said it this way - and I am paraphrasing because I am too lazy to walk to the bookshelf - "If you know what hurts you, you know what hurts others." While this advice doesn't work for sociopaths, it is a great guideline to those of us who want swinging to be enriching - to ourselves and our playmates.

Spoomonkey

[Charles]

We are talking about love... hmmm, the post's begs the question, "Is swinging about love?" I love my partner, but do I "love" the person I swing with? I would suggest not. Therefore, i don't think I can appeal to the 'love' passages for direction here.
:-)

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Charles

We are talking about love... hmmm, the post's begs the question, "Is swinging about love?" I love my partner, but do I "love" the person I swing with? I would suggest not. Therefore, i don't think I can appeal to the 'love' passages for direction here.
:-)

Really?

So - do you love your neighbor the same as you love your wife?

Or is it possible that the greek language actually has multiple words that are translated into "love"? (Actually, it is quite possible, because that's actually what happened) The Bible says "love your neighbor as yourself" - not "love your neighbor as your wife."

:rollseyes

I think this particular "love passage" is very appropriate. And reading this thread completely, and putting the statements in context, will make that rather obvious.

Spoomonkey

[kccple]

Originally Posted by TwstOFate

I, like Mr. Alura, am no christian. In fact I probably fall under the agnostic category. My feelings on the subject lean more toward seeing the stories relayed in the bible as allegorical. Much like Aesop, the stories are designed primarily to reinforce social mores and promote common sense. 4,000 years ago in small isolated villages, where sex was primarily for procreation (See Abraham bedding his wife’s slave to produce an heir) sexual monogamy was a necessity. Even if procreation wasn’t the only motivating factor, without birth control, it was quite often the end result. It was to the benefit of the tribe to know exactly whose offspring belonged to whom. You wouldn’t want have brothers and sisters creating branchless trees so to speak.

Additionally, in that time, marriages were more of a business contract than an enterprise based love, desire and mutual respect. Almost all business partnerships have built in non-compete clauses.

It would appear to me that this commandment, adultery, is designed solely to preserve the family unit and the stability of the community. In my observation of the good people on this board and the few that we’ve met in person is that their extramarital adventures have posed no threat to either their “family unit” or to society as a whole. In fact, with a greater than 50% divorce rate in this country, it would appear that the communication and trust needed to engage in this lifestyle might actually be serving a greater societal good.

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

[dayhiker]

Originally Posted by kccple

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

kcple - your right about adutery having an element of cheatin in it. At least in todays wester culture that seems to be the pronominate aspect most of the time.

When you look at marriage historically you find marring for love has only happened over the last 200 years. Before that marriage was more enonomic/political.

I'm reading a book, "Marriage, a History" right now. Its very good. well written and very informative. The thing I've learned is that preachers today preach as if our marriages are exactly like the marriages in Bible times. They are not. Well, I do like my wife and I being equal. I give her the same freedom many of the men in Bible times had.

dayhiker

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by kccple

Adultry to me always had a element of Cheating! If both are agreeable with swinging, is it Adultry??

From Wikipedia:

Adultery is generally defined as consensual sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than their lawful spouse. As there is usually an implicit or explicit agreement between spouses to not have sex outside the marriage, the common synonym for adultery is infidelity as well as unfaithfulness or in colloquial speech, cheating.

A marriage in which both spouses agree that it is acceptable to have sexual relationships with other people is termed open marriage and the resulting sexual relationships are generally not considered adulterous, at least from a non-legal standpoint.

So there you have it.

Mr. WS

[intuition897]

Shazam! There it is, WS!

In one of my debates on the Oprah message boards, I was challenged with the definition of adultery. I said, of course, that what we do is not adultery, because adultery is synonymous with betrayal, deceit, dishonesty, etc. THAT'S what made it wrong! What we doesn't fall under that category, and therefore is not adultery.

So some smart-ass posts the definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery " In response, I asked "who says Merriam-Webster is the ultimate authority on the definition of adultery??" The response was, "The American people do, that's who!!"

The people do. Uh-huh... Well then. Maybe that's the problem.

Many people claim to be atheists or non-religious, but still they adhere to the same principles and traditions that organized Christianity holds dear. The notion that sex outside of marriage is wrong, for example. I dunno, maybe it has to do with the extent to which Christianity has impacted our culture... But anyway, what I'm wondering is, if we completely removed every trace of religious influence from our decision making processes, would we still consider the act of having sex with someone other than our spouse wrong? I know that this question borders on blasphemy for some, but in the interest of finding the truth, sometimes we have to ask the questions that we're afraid to ask. I know for Mr. intuition and me, it would not seem sinful. This leads one to ask the question: "Why, then, is adultery considered wrong in God's eyes?" After pondering the question, and meditating on the nature of God, I came to the realization that His message is very simple: "Just love one another and be happy." It is so staggeringly simple. Sin is a negative force. It is what hurts and detracts from harmony and unity and peace. Swinging - for us - adds to inner and outer harmony, unity and peace. It does not harm anyone. And if anyone is ever hurt, it is not the sex that does it.

So anyway, to me, the idea that the people can have the audacity to define adultery in such a way is just silly. And that they think they have the right to determine for the rest of us just what is and isn't sin is absurd. Check Romans 14.

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by intuition897

Shazam! There it is, WS!

In one of my debates on the Oprah message boards, I was challenged with the definition of adultery. I said, of course, that what we do is not adultery, because adultery is synonymous with betrayal, deceit, dishonesty, etc. THAT'S what made it wrong! What we doesn't fall under that category, and therefore is not adultery.

So some smart-ass posts the definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery " In response, I asked "who says Merriam-Webster is the ultimate authority on the definition of adultery??" The response was, "The American people do, that's who!!"

The people do. Uh-huh... Well then. Maybe that's the problem.

When you figure that the first Merriam-Webster dictionary was published in 1847 in Springfield, Massachusetts (just down the road from where they were burning women for being "witches" just a few generations back) you can see where this definition fits into American culture.

Originally Posted by intuition897

Many people claim to be atheists or non-religious, but still they adhere to the same principles and traditions that organized Christianity holds dear. The notion that sex outside of marriage is wrong, for example. I dunno, maybe it has to do with the extent to which Christianity has impacted our culture...

Western religions in general.

Here is some more from Wikipedia:

In the original Napoleonic Code (1804), a man could ask to be divorced from his wife if she committed adultery, but the adultery of the husband was not a sufficient motive unless he had kept his concubine in the family home.

Adultry was not okay for a woman, but was excusable for a man as long as his mistress didn't live with them??? Much of the "rules" written by men in robes have to do with empowering men and oppressing women and their sexuality, because it scares weak men.

Originally Posted by intuition897

This leads one to ask the question: "Why, then, is adultery considered wrong in God's eyes?" After pondering the question, and meditating on the nature of God, I came to the realization that His message is very simple: "Just love one another and be happy." It is so staggeringly simple. Sin is a negative force. It is what hurts and detracts from harmony and unity and peace. Swinging - for us - adds to inner and outer harmony, unity and peace. It does not harm anyone. And if anyone is ever hurt, it is not the sex that does it.

An Ye Harm None, Do as Ye Will.

Originally Posted by intuition897

So anyway, to me, the idea that the people can have the audacity to define adultery in such a way is just silly. And that they think they have the right to determine for the rest of us just what is and isn't sin is absurd. Check Romans 14.

“Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion."
~ Charlotte Bronte

"Morality is herd instinct in the individual."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Ah but they do have the right, or so they feel. Part of being better, and more righteous then someone else is to judge and disparage them. This is human nature. It's easier to judge others as being inferior then it is to work on making yourself better. At least that is how it looks from where I stand.

Mr. WS