Moral dilemma: Religion and swinging question

[sweetmelissa]

Hello there board,
I need some advice, preferably from someone who has dealt with these kind of doubts before. First of all, some background info: Hubby and I have been married nearly 15 years, very stable, etc. We have been dabbling with swinging for a few years now, attending off premise parties and getting really hot sex at home as a result. This past fall, we took things to a new level (at my initiative) and went to an on-premise club. Since that time, we have joined a couple of websites and met several couples in our area, attended some parties, etc. We are at the soft-swap stage (oral) with no real intention of going any further, mainly because we are already getting out of it what we wanted, namely to spice up our own sex life at home. Our new experiences have been working wonders for us in our bedroom at home. Sounds great right? Yes and no, I am now in the midst of a moral crisis and need some good advice!

Main problem, I am also religious, probably a lot more than hubby although we do attend church together with kids. I was brought up Catholic in a very religious family, with the whole guilt package included. So while it is very exciting to me to be sensual with another couple, I am also wondering in the back of my mind what kind of sins I am stacking up against myself. I feel like I am living some kind of double-life, and also feel like a real hypocrite. I really personally feel the flirting and touching is acceptable, but what about oral sex? Especially when the church teaches that anything sexual outside of marriage is a sin? Somehow I justified all of this before I was married (living with my husband), but now I seem to have doubts about all of this. I feel I should talk to a priest, but want to find one that is REALLY open-minded and young, not very common in our area!

Please, if someone out there has had these kind of doubts, especially if you are Catholic, I need some advice. By the way, my hubby has no similar doubts, although he was also raised Catholic he is something of a "rebel" when it comes to religion. Please do not tell me to stop going to church or critique me for having these doubts, especially if you are not religious. This will not help me, and I am not going to stop being religious. Nor do I want to stop swinging, it has added so much to our marriage! Also, please do not write back and talk about priests molesting kids, that will not help me either, and is really apples and oranges, you know? Thanks for any advice, and for the record, I think this board is GREAT, especially for newbies getting into the lifestyle.

[NakedInSeattle]

Well, here goes. I was raised Catholic and then went Protestant when grown. I have had some times when I have steadily gone to church and I raised two children as Christians. I feel that what people do with their own lives and bodies is their business alone if no one is hurt by it. I know you can make a case for this including drugs and some other activities but it is a weak case at best.

In some cultures and in this one a few generations ago, it would be considered a sin to dance with someone of the opposite sex other than your husband/wife. Now it is not. At times and in different places it was and is a sin to have oral sex - even with your spouse. Now it is not. Have morals changed? I say no, society and its people have changed and grown more mature.

As I have stated here before, some people feel it is ok for a kiss on the cheek or a hug between friends but not a blow job. Why?

Are there limits? of course. Fucking anybody, anywhere is wrong because you don't know who the person is and what the consequences might be in their lives or in yours.

Here's my bottom line. Swinging (put your own definition on the activity) with consenting, knowledgeable adults with the full consent of your committed partner is not a sin. It never was. Nothing to confess now, is there?

Good luck and happy playing.

[jim-n-nicole]

Many people pick and choose the part of their religion that they follow. Very few people that I have met adhere strictly to every rule laid down by their church. This makes sense to me - they realize that it is very unlikely that their church has interpreted their god precisely correctly. Think about it - even churches have changed their interpretation over the years - including the interpretation of the bible. Does anybody really believe that they have it exactly right at this exact moment in time?

Life is full of choices. You need to do what *you* think is right - not what the preacher or anyone else tells you is right. Personally, I don't see how being honest, decent and caring to other human beings can be a bad thing by anybody's definition. But hey, that's me.

Jim.

[couplefromma]

There are a few other forums that deal with this question. If you do a search on catholic or religion you will find them.

One of the couples recommended this web site:

http://www.libchrist.com

Hope this helps.

[CowboyBob]

Hi, Melissa:

As an ex-Catholic, wish I could offer some sage advice or a few quotations from one of the Pope's encyclicals to put your mind at ease, but I can't. Frankly, the reason I'm an EX-Catholic is because I couldn't put up with all that holier-than-thou (pun intended) crap that comes spewing forth out of the mouths of religious leaders, not just from the Catholic church, but from the Swaggerts, the Robertsons, the Falwells, and so on.

Now, my wife's pretty religious, not Catholic, but pretty religious. She doesn't have any problem dealing with the church's prohibitions against any kind of fun because she thinks that for every religious doctrine that prohibits something, there's a rationalization around it.

The Ten Commandments say, "thou shalt not kill," but all over the Bible there are examples of God's chosen people killing, often with God's okay. Kill all their men, steal their women, turn their children into slaves, that sort of thing.

My wife says it's up to every individual to weigh in his or her own mind whether to strictly follow a church's doctrine or to weigh in one's own heart whether that doctrine is appropriate.

The Church condemns birth control, (other than the rhythm method) but that seems like a ridiculous thing to believe. To me, anyway.

I agree with Naked. I think swinging isn't a sin, because nobody's cheating, nobody's being deceitful, and nobody's being unfaithful.

And don't forget, in the Bible, Abraham gave Sarah to the Pharoah, to be his wife! if that's not swinging, (or swapping), what is?

Just kidding.

[sweetmelissa]

Thanks SO MUCH to everyone for your advice, I certainly will check out the websites too. Any Catholic and swinger websites out there? I really feel better already just reading your responses. I guess the bottom line is I need to come to terms with this myself. My husband also is of the same mind as Cowboy Bob, and feels that many generations have had many interpretations of the Bible and Church tradition, and YES it has changed a lot over the past 2000 years. If you just look at the Vatican 2 doctrine (which I believe came down in the late 60s, since after I was born anyway), many of the rules concerning lay people's involvement in the Mass, getting rid of the Latin Mass, abstaining from meat every Friday, etc. have gone away. I have even heard some priests (OK, maybe just one) say that how you as an individual interpret the teachings on birth control determines whether it is OK for you or not. Any additional advice appreciated, I will continue to check this thread for responses. thanks!!!

[intuition897]

I don't know sweetmelissa, we could all be wrong and we'll eventually roast in the fires of hell for what we're all doing here. All I know is, I'm living the best, most moral, most decent life I possibly can. I consider myself Christian even though I haven't been to church in literally years. I won't deny that I still struggle with whether or not I'm doing the right thing; SO many people swear that we're wrong, it's sometimes difficult to not at least take notice of that fact. How you marry swinging and religion in your mind is a highly personal thing. However, I've found that I tend to disagree with society's definition of adultery. In the Bible, every instance I've seen of adultery has been accompanied by negative things like lying, deceitfulness, callousness, anger, hatred, weakness, sneakiness, disrespect or disregard for one's spouse... just generally immoral behaviour. For myself and my husband, anytime we've been engaged in swinging we've only experienced an enhanced intimicay with one another, and pleasant feelings of comraderie and friendship with our playmates. There has never been a feeling of anything sinister, or dirty, or shame. We're just havin' fun! The whole concept of Love=Sex and Sex=Love is something that PEOPLE have contrived. Not the Bible, IMO.
The other thing I'd argue is that polygamy was not just common, but the rule of the day in ancient times. God said to David (I think it was him) 'If you wanted more women for yourself, you should've just asked Me! I would've give you as many as you need. But no, you killed this woman's husband so that you could steal her from him' Ok, not word for word, but it's in there! Obviously it wasn't the idea of sex with multiple partners that bothered God; He doesn't care about our laws that say it's ok as long as we have a contract - a piece of paper - to prove we now have the right to screw. That's silly. God told King Solomon that he would grant him anything he asked for. Instead of asking for wealth and fame, he asked God for wisdom. God was so pleased with his answer, he gave him profound wisdom AND made him the richest, most powerful man in history. One of the gifts God gave him was a harem of (I think) 700 wives. Do you suppose he developed deep intimate relationships with each of them? Why would he need so many? I think the idea was he was supposed to have one primary wife, a soul mate, and many women to satisfy his taste for variety. Just my take on things.

[CowboyBob]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

Thanks SO MUCH to everyone for your advice, I certainly will check out the websites too. Any Catholic and swinger websites out there? I really feel better already just reading your responses. I guess the bottom line is I need to come to terms with this myself. My husband also is of the same mind as Cowboy Bob, and feels that many generations have had many interpretations of the Bible and Church tradition, and YES it has changed a lot over the past 2000 years. If you just look at the Vatican 2 doctrine (which I believe came down in the late 60s, since after I was born anyway), many of the rules concerning lay people's involvement in the Mass, getting rid of the Latin Mass, abstaining from meat every Friday, etc. have gone away. I have even heard some priests (OK, maybe just one) say that how you as an individual interpret the teachings on birth control determines whether it is OK for you or not. Any additional advice appreciated, I will continue to check this thread for responses. thanks!!!

Thanks for the kind words, melissa, and I've been thinking ever since I first posted.

I don't think it's possible to accept what you (and the rest of us) are doing as being acceptable pursuant to church doctrines without some sort of rationalization.

But here's the thing. I dont think anybody ANYWHERE, swinging or not, can deal with the way they live their lives without rationalizing in some way.

Like before, the Bible says, "Thou Shalt Not Kill," but people are doing it in God's name all the time. (Or Allah's name, for example). I've heard some really preposterous things in my time, such as according to the Catholics' religious doctrines, unbaptized babies don't go to heaven. One ignorant muckhead told me that Mother Teresa's burning in hell right now because she wasn't "born again" according to what his church teaches.

The whole debate over whether "homosexuality is evil" comes back to what the Bible says. it says men shall not lie with men, but it also rattles off a whole litany of additional sins such as having sex with a woman on her period, stoning adulterous women (but not adulterous men) or working on the Sabbath. Obviously, in this society we don't treat menstruating women as being unclean anymore, so we're clearly picking and choosing which Biblical laws and doctrines we choose to follow.

Like it's been said before, we have to get back to choosing for ourselves which doctrines are to be followed and which aren't.

If I were to cheat on my wife, I'd be committing a terrible act. Maybe even a sin, if I believed in sin. However, if I do the very same thing with her full consent, I don't see how it should be a sin. I'm rationalizing, I know, but I think everyone, everywhere, rationalizes when it comes right down to it.

But that's just me.

[Nymph an' Satyr]

Okay- we were both raised Catholic- 12 years of school and all. The Church as an institution and the Pope are supposed to be infallible. Well, if you follow that strict interpretation, as John Paul II says that you should- you are headed for trouble and unhappiness. John Paul II has stated that sex for ANY OTHER REASON than procreation is a sin. By that statement you don't need to swing to get into moral trouble- you can stay at home and rack up all types of mortal sins.

This doesn't work in our personal reality. The church through out history has been filled with inconsistencies, and has taken cognitive dissonance to new level.

We choose to believe that the church is an institution of men. As such, they ARE fallible, and they don't have "THE" answer- just "A" answer. Contrary to the "Doctrine of Infallibility."

The Church is full of sexual repression, and has been for centuries. It's largely misogynistic, and only recently has begun to improve it's gender relations. It has no respect for the love of same sex partners. And so on....

You will NOT find a Roman Catholic priest who condones your choices. My wife and I take the attitude of "how can something that feels so good be wrong?" We don't believe that swinging is wrong. But that view is a minority view in our society.

Good luck, but I don't think that you will find support with in the frame work of Roman Catholicism. Which is one reason why the wife and I are no longer with in that frame work.....

[Alura]

Yours is a difficult dilemma, SweetMelissa. I was raised by a Pentacostal mother and a Native American father, who was somewhat bemused by my mother's ideas. Most things were sins if they were fun, including chewing gum and dancing.

In my opinion, Jesus was not celibate, having spent years with Mary Magdelene, enjoying an obviously joyful relationship. Some scholars believe they had children. Jesus never spoke ill of sex; that all came later from Saul of Tarsus (Saint Paul). In my opinion, Saul's teachings are quite opposed from Jesus' ideas.

There is a thread somewhere on this board in which a Board-Member and history major, Quin, writes at length about what is known about Saul. Historical scholars' version, not Saul's. You might do a search and read it.

Here's a link to that thread: Dealing With Guilt Unfortunately, the thread deteriorated into some unpleasant exchanges as those involving religion often do. (That's why we no longer have a political forum on this board.) Please ignore the unpleasantries and concentrate on the informative parts. The thread is entitled, "Dealing with Guilt."

It's interesting, too, that the Bible was compiled at the order of the Roman Emperor, Constintine, a few hundred years after Christ's death, when Constantine made Christianity the "official religion" of the Roman Empire and moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople.

Constantine had more influence on which writings were included in the Bible than any other person in history. Both Saul's and John the Devine's writings were included despite both writers never having known Jesus of Nazareth.

If that's not enough to raise questions in your mind, have a look at the "Bloody Popes" of the middle ages. That'll curl your toes.

There is no question, in my mind, that Jesus of Nazareth was an extraordinary person worthy of high praise and adulation. It is, however, in my opinion, at least questionable whether today's church, catholic or protestant represents him. Most, in my opinion, have no idea what he was trying to teach.

Mr. Alura

[sweetmelissa]

Thanks again everyone! I have also had some of the same thoughts as Alura about the teachings of St. Paul. It seems like he is the one always pushing the sex= sin thing, and interestingly enough, his readings are more commonly read in Catholic Masses than any other writer of the New Testament, save only the Gospel writers. Please, keep posting your thoughts, as I am going to continue to monitor this thread. And yes, I am still hopeful of finding a priest I can talk to. I have met some very open-minded priests in my life, although admittedly none lately or in this area. Keep it comin'!

[ssteve]

Hi mellisa,

We were both raised as Lutherans. Not that much different from Catholic as far a guilt etc lol.

I think the key thing you stated, was it was a sin to have sex outside your marriage. When you and your hubby attend swingers events together, you are still one. You're just enjoying life TOGETHER...not apart and cheating.

You no doubt have found that swinging events are full of people being totally honest about everything. There is not cheating and in our case, we feel verrry close to each other during the swinging events.

We can relate with the guilt thing and religion...but that is how we can feel OK, by knowing we are sharing intimacy with ourselves by enjoying others together.

Ssteve

[HotMoCpl]

Go talk to the preist....he might want a blow job too. Quite personally, I think Vatican needs an attitude adjustment. THEY live in a fairy tale where as we live in the real world.

Good luck though.

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by Alura

It's interesting, too, that the Bible was compiled at the order of the Roman Emperor, Constintine, a few hundred years after Christ's death, when Constantine made Christianity the "official religion" of the Roman Empire and moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople.

Yeah, that was right around the time he also changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. So much for accuracy.

Male D

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

I am now in the midst of a moral crisis and need some good advice!

I am...religious, probably a lot more than hubby although we do attend church together with kids. I was brought up Catholic in a very religious family, with the whole guilt package included. So while it is very exciting to me to be sensual with another couple, I am also wondering in the back of my mind what kind of sins I am stacking up against myself. I feel like I am living some kind of double-life, and also feel like a real hypocrite. I really personally feel the flirting and touching is acceptable, but what about oral sex? Especially when the church teaches that anything sexual outside of marriage is a sin? Somehow I justified all of this before I was married (living with my husband), but now I seem to have doubts about all of this. I feel I should talk to a priest, but want to find one that is REALLY open-minded and young, not very common in our area! ...

...By the way, my hubby has no similar doubts, although he was also raised Catholic he is something of a "rebel" when it comes to religion.

Oh, SweetMelissa... That could be a song!

I am not Catholic, but know a few. I am surprised you haven't already talked to a priest; unless you just go to church for the social part of it, I would have thought that you would have. Personally, I think the only people you have to talk to about this with is your husband and pray about it if you like.

The Bible talks about adultery; in fact it is one of the commandments. The idea here is that you can't do something deceitful. Adultery is unlawful sex. Who determines that? The Church? Or the Bible? Or our Government? I respectfully submit that the Bible is the least judgemental when it somes to sex.

Didn't Soloman have like 300 wives and 700 concubines. Does the Bible say that he had to give that up to be "saved"?

Just because Jesus may (or may not) have had a sexual relationship with Mary, does that mean that we all should follow his example? Who ordained marriage? God created Adam and Eve to be together, but I don't remember the term marriage inserted into their relationship. They were made to be able to procreate, but what about the children? How would they procreate withouth incestual relationships? Not saying this is the right way to live...not my call...but I am saying that there is a lot of room for people to move around in and alot of things the Bible doesn't answer.

Don't base your decisions on the fact that your hubby is a "rebel". He sees things his way and you have to see things your way.

Good luck!

Male D