Moral dilemma: Religion and swinging question

[Alura]

Male D wrote:

God created Adam and Eve to be together, but I don't remember the term marriage inserted into their relationship. They were made to be able to procreate, but what about the children? How would they procreate withouth incestual relationships?

Cain went to the Land of Nod to find a wife, D. She must have come in on another space ship and landed in Nod by mistake. Don't ya reckon?


Alura

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by Alura

Cain went to the Land of Nod to find a wife, D. She must have come in on another space ship and landed in Nod by mistake. Don't ya reckon?

There must've been another "God" in the mix somewhere, Eh?

Male D

[sweetmelissa]

Alura and Male D:
Actually, I have always thought the biblical story of Creation was sort of the writer's way of explaining the beginning of the world, and not meant to be interpreted literally. I did a term paper in college on Creation vs. Evolution and came to the conclusion that man evolved from apes and the big bang really did happen, but God was behind the whole process. Who's to say that God didn't use a different method to create man, and Moses (said to be the writer of the first two books of the Bible I believe) just used that story to explain things in a way folks at that time could understand. Anyway, Catholics certainly don't spend as much time in the Bible as Protestants as a rule, and the majority of the sex= sin comes from Church TRADITION, not the Bible. My question has always been whether the Traditions came from, and whether they are to be followed to the letter, etc. Many of us are "cafeteria" Catholics who just take what they want to believe and forget the rest. I have never been one of those except when it comes to birth control, where I disagree with the church completely. For some reason, I feel OK about that wheras the swinging thing has me questioning myself. Double D, I have not talked to a priest yet because 1. I am afraid of what he will say and 2. I have been looking for one I feel comfortable talking to this about. Contrary to what you see on TV and movies, many Catholics no longer use the "confessional" method where you are behind a screen talking to the priest. I always go face-to- face. Hope this helps clarify some of my dilemma.

[Nymph an' Satyr]

Sweetmelissa, you seem to need to have a Catholic priest validate what you are doing. I really don't think that that will happen. If this is indeed what you seek, I fear that you will be disappointed.

You may find a younger, hip priest- but even so- I seriously doubt that he will give you the green light on swinging. John Paul II is pretty clear that sex is only for procreation with in a heterosexual marriage.

While you can be something of a cafeteria Catholic- as most Americans are, Opus Dei aside, I doubt that you will find a cafeteria Catholic priest. It is a hierarchy after all, and the priests have doctrinal orders to follow.

In truth, you will not find much in the way of validation outside the swing community. Few people understand what it is that we do. Few people understand that most swingers genuinely love their partners and that swinging enhances the relationship. Main stream America thinks that we are all a bunch of perverts.

My suggestion would be to look inside your relationship for your answers. If it makes you and your husband happy, then do you really need more than that in the way of affirmation?

And just what sin is it that you think that you are committing anyway? Just curious.

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

Double D, I have not talked to a priest yet because 1. I am afraid of what he will say and 2. I have been looking for one I feel comfortable talking to this about. Contrary to what you see on TV and movies, many Catholics no longer use the "confessional" method where you are behind a screen talking to the priest. I always go face-to- face. Hope this helps clarify some of my dilemma.

Hey Sweet, I am not the most knowedgeable of the Catholic Religion, but really didn't think that things were done via a couple dark booths.

I also know a few Catholics and know how their lives seem to have a lot of guilt involved. So I know it's going to be VERY difficult to get away from your chilldhood beliefs; unless you have a catharsis and just decide to live your life how you guys want to.

I do wish the most luck.

Male D

[parcarcaliente]

Hello SweetMelissa, this sure is a difficult theme to handle, as always could turn out into a debate that goes to nowhere, but I think what you have to do is to take a decision about what you really want and how you feel about it, that's what's more important.

Religion is always a dogma, so there's no interpretation different to the one they do, so according to that, I'm sure swinging wouldn't be allowed and any priest that you talk to (as open minded as he could) would tell you that.

If you want my opinion, you just have to remember what's important in Religion, and that is that love is above everything else, and you shouldn't do something different to love the others, and in that aspect, swinging doesn't break that rule.

If you keep having these guilt charges, I think you would have to quit it, since I'm sure you wouldn't turn down your religion, so swinging would be too harsh for your tranquillity, take care and wish you the best.

Would be great to know what is your final decision

[Vespertine]

Originally Posted by Nymph an' Satyr

Sweetmelissa, you seem to need to have a Catholic priest validate what you are doing. I really don't think that that will happen. If this is indeed what you seek, I fear that you will be disappointed.

Dito

This is something that only you and your husband can validate within your relationship.

I think it's safe to say that many of us have to deal with morality issues regarding our religion and swinging. The Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 3, Oct. 10, 2000: Today's Alternative Marriage Styles: The Case of Swingers, report these findings.

"Data gathered by private swing clubs indicate that 90 percent of swingers identify a religious preference and 47 percent regularly attend religious services (Friendship Express, 1994; Miller, 1994)."

You can read the entire article here.

So if their findings are accurate, 90% of us are in the same boat as you but are able to justify our actions without the guilt you seem to be feeling.

If you keep having these guilt charges, I think you would have to quit it, since I'm sure you wouldn't turn down your religion, so swinging would be too harsh for your tranquillity, take care and wish you the best.

Once again I agree here. You can't possibly want to involve yourself in something that is going to constantly keep you in a state of guilt. Swinging is supposed to be pleasurable.

[sweetmelissa]

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the great advice and support, to both people who have posted on the board and those who have PMed me. I have been doing some real soul-searching for the last couple of weeks, and have yet to come to any real decision, but at least feel I understand myself and my feelings a lot better. For nymph and satyr, the answer is the big scarlet 'A", adultery. It is all in how you define adultery, but for the church anything outside your marriage qualifies. I am not really sure about all the rules myself, but I think even looking at porn or having thoughts of a sexual nature about others probably counts as adultery in the eyes of the church. So you see my dilemma, the church has a very narrow view about what is allowed for sex within marriage (is is really true the pope said only for procreation, even within marriage?), so I try to stay as ignorant as possible about the church's views so I don't have to feel guilty. However, it is impossible to do that (at least for me) now that we have graduated to soft-swing. OK, that probably sounds to most non-Catholics like I am burying my head in the sand, etc. Probably hard for non-Catholics to understand my thought process. But it's hard to get around all those years of Catholic school and strict family upbringing, ya know? I don't think a catharsis is in the cards for me, so I have to keep on soul-searching. I'll keep checking the thread if anyone has any more advice/thoughts to offer. thanks, Melissa

[Vespertine]

Melissa,

Have you checked out Liberated Christians? The site is very informative and might help you come to terms with your feelings of guilt.

Here are some other threads you might like to read:

Board Discussion about Liberated Christians

Religious Beliefs and Swinging

Guilt

[Vespertine]

Speaking of Boccaccio and the Decameron, here's a Decameron limerick:

"Well my wife you have been rather bad,
This young spark has been caught in our pad.

But it happens I'm gay,
So I think there's a way.

We will each entertain this fine lad."

[Vespertine]

Well Lucretia's nickname was "The Little Idol of the Vatican". She was also known as "daughter, bride, and daughter-in-law" to Pope Alexander VI.

She was born to her father's (Pope Alexander VI) mistress in the 1400's when he was simply known as Cardnial Rodrigo Borgia. It was common during those times for Pope's (and all men of the cloth, really) to have mistresses, though they weren't as blatant about it as Alexander VI. Orgies it seemed, were quite common in the papal residence. He had a string of mistresses and fathered many children. Supposedly, she was involved in an incestuous relationship with her father (The Pope) and her two brothers. Rumor has it her father or one of her brothers fathered one of her children.

Point being- Affairs, hedonism and religion have always had a history together. The worst eras for this was during the 14th and 15th centuries. They behaved like Monarchs and even held court and took lovers, not to mention many were blood-thirsty.

I don't think a little sexual exploration between consenting adults will damn us. The Popes have done just fine.

[JakenReenie]

There are 6.5 billion people on Earth. There may be even more life forms elsewhere as Earth is just a tiny speck in a universe which may have more stars than there are people on Earth.

So, do you really suppose that the Creator of that has time to worry about who you fucked and when?

The first commandment: Thou shalt not kill, a reasonable proscription as is Thou shalt not Steal. When we start getting around to coveting and adultery, it gets a bit shaky.

Here's how to break 3 commandments in one quick afternoon:

You're looking out your window at your neighbor's brand new in-ground pool and you're jealous. Strike One: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

Your neighbor's gorgeous wife struts out of the house naked to tan by the pool. You get an instant woody at the sight and start drooling thinking about what you'd like to do with her. Strike Two: Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife.

You decide to stroll over to compliment her on their lovely new pool and her lovely naked body, she offers you a drink, one thing leads to another and next thing you know, you're banging her right there in the chaise lounge. Strike Three: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Go to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. But don't worry about it. All your friends will be there.

As Oscar Wilde said: Heaven for the climate; Hell for the company

See ya there.

Wow, I totally understand where you are coming from. Hubby and I have been swinging for almost a year now. Not only do we attend church three times a week, we live in the parsonage. Hubby is the Sunday School Director, I do the weekly bulliten and the monthly newsletter. It is very hard, I also feel as though sometimes I am living a double life. I have struggled with the moral issues for some time now. I differ from you in the fact that I have found since starting this that I am very Bi, and we are a full swap cpl. There is no easy answer to how you feel. It is truely your personal relationship with God that you have to look at. Do you really feel convicted that what you are doing is wrong, and if so are you willing to pay the consequences? My husband feels that its OK, he will just not get as many rewards or crowns in heaven. I dont think it is that easy. Any way, it is a personal struggle, that for now I dont see changing for me one direction or another. I still go to church, although I dont pray as I should because of feeling like a hypocrite. And I dont plan on getting out of the lifestyle any time soon either. Dont know what this did for you, if anything, just that there is someone else who struggles as you do. A friend of mine sent me your post, I'm glad she did. Good Luck, Marcie

[Spoomonkey]

This is a tough question to get a very fair answer to here.

Unfortunately, those who do not share our faith tend to consider it "quaint, but ignorant". I am really not sure that this is a topic that can be discussed on this board as there is the inevitable "side swipe" or three.

As for me, I am unashamedly Christian. My faith is very "mainstream" - and if you met me at your church, you'd have no idea of the adventures that my wife and I get into. At the same time, if you met me at a club or a "Meet Up", you'd have no idea that I go to church. I have a deep background in ministry, and I am unashamed to say that I am an ordained minister in the largest Protestant denomination (no, I did not get it off the internet and I did not get it with a "new age" group).

That said, I am also unashamed that I am a swinger. My wife and I enjoy what we do and feel that we do it for the right reason (for us).

But - there was a lot of struggle early in my thought process. Personally, I think that is a very healthy thing for a Christian to do - to question what they've been taught as the "truth" and examine things for themselves. Do I believe that Jesus taught that we should swing? No. But, do I believe that He taught against it? No.

What I believe it all comes down to is the freedom that we have as believers (a thing that most Christians will talk about, but never understand), the abundant life that we were promised and the release from the "object lesson" that the first covenant was.

Yes - I go to church - and no, I do not EVER feel the least bit hypocritical. I don't attend a church that would accept what I do - you have to give up way too much in the way of orthodoxy to find a church that would.

Spoomonkey

[two4funKS]

I completely understand where you are coming from.
Here's a site, don't know...others may have already shown it to you, but try it out:
http://www.libchrist.com
It's good, even if you don't agree 100%... it will help you think through some things.

US? We view our marriage as a sacred union of our souls, NOT as a "exclusive sex contract". We 'share' with others that we get to know, sure, but we do so w/in the bounds of our 'together' sex-life. It's simply another fearture of who we are together!

If you have more concerns, PLEASE feel free to E-mail.