feeling like he cheated on me

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by lovinher

For Intuition....Who says a woman can't be president?
Too bad you're not in the States, we could use you.

I don't like to consider myself a feminist... just a "people-ist'. But thanks for the kind words.

[RaysWays]

Originally Posted by intuition897

The fact is, I get along better with men than I do with women.

I know about four women who say the same thing - and to a person, they are level headed, independent, realistic, easy to get along with, think with their heads and feel with their hearts, and men trust them instinctively. Perhaps because similar attitudes prevail about sex - the women don't use sex to control men and don't like women who do. I have a word for these women -- 'sane', though maybe 'adults' would be fairer. Unfortunately there aren't very many of them. Kudos to you if you are in their company.

Sorry if it sounded absolute. Group differences exist, but there is always a big spread in individual attitudes. I would never assume group traits about an individual. But I'm sticking to my guns, though women on this board are much less likely to be conventional -- generally, males' dominant social desire is sexual access to females, and females' is children, home and family. It isn't B&W, it isn't everyone, it isn't even very definite -- just a skewing in outlook that exists along the gender divide.

I said cheat, beat or the street - aren't those CHOICES fgs? They all suck. So the issue is - which one sucks the least? For most men it is likely cheating. Women aren't generally too keen on this, but I think it's still true for most men. You may see dishonor as the worst behavior - to me the worst is making children the victims of adult conflicts, especially given the enormity of some possible long term consequences.
When I was younger I believed in that doing morally 'bad' things was always wrong. But years have taught me that morals are compasses, not maps, and there are times immoral things are the realistic choice. A less cloudy example than this one: You are a young female applying for a scarce job you badly need. The interviewer or the application asks "Are you planning to have children and take maternity leave in the next five years?" That question is flat illegal in most states (dunno abt Canada...). YOu are pretty sure you won't get the job if you tell the truth - "yes". So the realistic thing to do is (sigh) lie.

Yes -- and male's evaluation leads to -- cheat, beat, or the street. Some wise person wrote

Joint re-evaluation involves the cooperation of the woman, which he doesn't control and may or may not be possible, and may or may not resolve the situation. Do 'others' include the children? As to degrading oneself by cheating -- any of the four (staying = #4) options are degrading.

Nothing I wrote says or implies otherwise. And he should be taking responsibility for the actions and consequences. But so should she...

In one brief sentence you have managed to trivialize and sidestep my two premises, plus use insulting male stereotyping (ego) to obscure them. Note that you did not respond to them.

First, male sexuality is valid - a male's deepest innate programming is to implant the seed. So - 'keeping your pants on' is a horrible option which the male is forced into by the woman degrading the marriage agreement. It is akin to keeping a child on the edge of starvation to enforce good behavior - is that a silly head game? Of course not -- because the child's needs are seen as valid. That hunger and vulnerability (child cannot provide food him/herself) are not treated with the contempt that females often have for male sexual hunger and vulnerability. But it is still acceptable for women to act this way (incidentally none of the 'sane' women I know would ever do this...). OR... are you old enough to recall the uproar by the early feminists ('70's) when the pill was not readily available and it was suggested that abstention prevents pregnancy?

Second, women hold real power - female power - in their control of sex. Using real power abusively is not a 'silly head game'. It is just as ugly as male power - men intimidating women physically or dominating nonworking wives by means of financial control. And whose behavior is condemned??

Looking at the above scenario, in even plainer terms, women not only have power, they (some of them) are capable of real evil in how they use it. And often that evil is neither seen nor condemned, so there is little accountability. I do think one has to step outside the social attitudes - almost universal - that male sexuality is trash and that women have limited power compared to men (antithesis of the two premises) to get what I'm blathering about. But ya know... you have done that once already.

Actually what I said and believe is pretty much the opposite.

ARRGH! That is not at all what I said or think. I'm not talking about a rollback of feminist accomplishments - I'm talking about extending the equivalent to males. Read my 9/15 post (unless it interferes with sex, in which case you are excused ;~D ). If a man uses male power (physical intimidation) he is an animal. But if she uses female power (manipulating sex), this is acceptable (primate females do this, speaking of animal behavior). Better example - she refuses a condom ("But honey, I don't like them, and it makes me feel like you don't trust me") and conceives against his wishes. Even better, does so with a neighbor and secretly commits the male to raising a child that isn't his. It is virtue on her part - to see that the child is cared for...

Not extending rights by ok'ing cheating - but by recognizing the existence of real female power, male vulnerability, and the abuse of the latter by the former. And power not only corrupts, it blinds -- can you really not see the ugliness and size of the woman's power when she uses sex as a weapon in the marriage???? Can you really not see that she is the one whose immoral use of power is wrecking the marriage?
Or... is his sexuality just trash that he should contain? And is he a typical idiot male if he can't or if he wants better?

Insulting the male to obscure the issues - aka blowing smoke.

And if this were a true story, why is your reaction one of contempt for a male in a horrible situation, even a life crisis? Why the degradation of the man? Do you see how power-corrupt and abusive such thinking is? How about seeing the woman's wrongs?

The child can't stop the hunger; the man can't deny his sexuality. Neither should be victimized. The child can't fend for h/h self; the man - well cheat, beat and the street - those are his choices and they all suck. At least until women's power and abuse is exposed and reduced by moral disapproval.

If we can all stop hurting and allowing others to hurt us, then, yeah, we can all get along.[/QUOTE]
So apply this to women as well as men - maybe by looking at the two premises without the prejudice of power.

[intuition897]

I had a really LOOOOONG post here, but this is just stupid. And no one wants to read it. So, RaysWays, I'll PM you.

[badboyooplik]

IMHO, its all ready gone too far. Its obviouse to me from reading your post that he's been lying to you. You know the truth. Your in a loving relationship and you swing, which is supposed to be based on honesty, but he is starting another relationship here. Knowing that, you now have two choices: either put your foot down and fix this rift(one way or the other) or you can choose to turn a blind eye and live with the consequenses of do so.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by intoit_0308

I DESERVE to be #1 and so do my kids. And if he thought more about how a woman he's only known a few weeks, felt than he did I... I don't want to be with someone like that. I had been through too much with him. He actually made the comment that "it's okay to have another woman in bed when we're together, but he can't do it alone? What kind of crap is that?"

This is a perfect example to prove that swinging is definitely not for everybody. Apparently some people can't separate a cheating mentality from a swinging (open, honest, together) mentality. Some people don't get it, and never will.

intoit_0308, I'm sorry for all you went through, and glad for you that you got out.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by Chicup

But they can’t change their brains. Women are in part homemakers because thats what they are wired for, men break things because thats what we are wired for.

Oh, please. Women today don't want to be married to a "boy" they have to clean up after. Women want equality in their partnerships. We work just as many long hours outside of the home as our male partners do (most of us, that is). When studies are done to learn what women really want in their relationships, it usually comes down to #1 - equality in household chores. We don't want to have to "assign" chores to a husband (as if he's our 10-year-old son), we want him to pitch in. Step up to the plate and take responsibility. We're sick of picking up after men, in more ways than one.

We want men to be MEN, to be adult equals, not spoiled brats with double standards (for sex, division of labor, everyhing).

Welcome to the 21st century.

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by RaysWays

What I have personally observed is a pretty common (not applying this to Nina) phenomenon with cheating men. Their wives use sex for power, so sex becomes difficult. If he allows himself to be manipulated, he is pussy-whipped; if he forgoes sex he can stop her abuse of power. For a male in this situation, he can find another partner for sex, secretly masturbate or leave (cheat, beat or the street). Leaving is horrible - demolished finances and standard of living, pain inflicted on children with unknown and potentially serious long term effects. So, the man cheats. My point is that to see the situation clearly, one has to recognize the female's abusive actions and to accept the validity of the male's sexuality. Usually a cheating male is bitterly condemned (along with the male pursuit of sex) and the woman's behavior is overlooked. But realistically, it is her abuse that causes the situation. If one accepts that his sexuality is valid (and the source of his vulnerability), given his choices it is not a mystery. Unless he believes the woman will change, he may feel cheating is the best option. Then, of course, he will find that it isn't a lot easier on the outside, as he will get the same condemnation, which debases his sexuality and ignores the woman's malfeasances.

Okay. I have a few opinions on this. Vs. giving the pc opinion I'll give you my honest opinion although I doubt some of it will be popular with my sisters. Now, in regards to cheating. There is NEVER an excuse to do this. Ever. I have been the child at home with the Mother waiting for Daddy to come home, with Mama knowing he is out banging another woman behind her back. Trust me. The kids may not know specifically that Daddy is out humping other chicks, but the negative energy, the tension and the stress they see their Mother under makes it a very unhappy place to live. And the wife usually is aware that something is going on. Women were given highly fine tuned senses in this area and its rare that affairs catch us by surprise, usually by the time he has confessed (or is caught) she knows who she is, where she works, etc. etc. etc.

So no, there is no excuse for cheating. Thats like saying that murdering someone is okay because the other person pissed you off. Nope, don't think so. Divorce is not good, but if you have tried communication, marital counseling and have made an honest attempt at happiness than you need to call a lawyer in my opinion vs. cheating behind someone's back. It sounds like people who do this are justifying wrong doing within their own minds.

Okay, in regards to the part of this post where it says that women withhold sex. My friends and I call this the "de-freak" factor. We have seen this many, many times. My number one complaint from men is "when we married she was really sexual, she was freaky, we couldn't get enough of each other. Once the kids were born that was it. Now if we have sex twice a month I'm lucky. I don't know what to do, when I mention it to her she just kisses me and we go to sleep."
Okay, this is not okay either. Within my own marriage I would personally be unable to live this way. If my husband were to all of a sudden cut sex off I'll be honest, I'd have major issues. And Jay is the same way. It seems that once people get married and the new factor wears off and they settle into life things begin to change....which of course is normal to a degree. But I have seen many times how we change. All of a sudden it goes from taking care of your body to wearing nothing but jogging suits, hair in a pony tail and no make up. Am I saying that this ever gives anyone the right or justification to cheat? NO, not at all. However, this is a major complaint. It would be interesting for someone to do a study on cheating spouses to see what the reasons behind it are.
Anyways, this is all just my personal opinion.
Shelly

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by ShellyM

It seems that once people get married and the new factor wears off and they settle into life things begin to change....which of course is normal to a degree. But I have seen many times how we change. All of a sudden it goes from taking care of your body to wearing nothing but jogging suits, hair in a pony tail and no make up. Am I saying that this ever gives anyone the right or justification to cheat? NO, not at all. However, this is a major complaint.

Shelly, I agree with you on this, and it goes both ways. Men also gain weight, get sloppy around the house, wear the grungy sweats. I agree with you that it's important to care about ourselves and keep on doing the best we can with what we've got - and be appealing to our mates.

About women not being as sexual....in a lot of cases, men can help with this by doing some very simple things. Men stop "courting" their wives because they've already got her, but they don't understand...it's not for pursuit, only. Many men will stop (or cut back a lot) on doing the things that she wants on a daily basis in a relationship. When they're in pursuit of a woman, they give her a lot of verbal appreciation, take her nice places, do special things for her (the little things, too), wanting to please her. In a lot of ways, that's why women stop wanting sex so much - he seems to have gotten lazy and doesn't apppear to care. It's a two-way street. He needs to keep showing her in all the loving, romantic ways that he wants her, in order for her to feel loved/wanted and in turn, turned on. Many men really don't get how important this is to most women.

It's so very simple. If men are having this problem of getting less sex, I'd advise them to think back to the times in their relationship when the sex was hot. Now, remember what he was specifically doing for their relationship during this time. Was he a more interesting conversationalist? Did they go out more? Did he dress better, look better, smell better? Behave better? Did he take more time with sex & foreplay and was a more attentive lover? If so, she certainly has noticed the differences, and may be secretly very dissappointed that the man she thought she married somehow vanished, and left this less sexy version in his place!

If anyone (male or female) wants to go back to a better time in their relationship, they need to look at how they've changed, for starters.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by simplynina

he gets mad at me if i even bring her up.

Originally Posted by simplynina

i know i should get a divorce before i start meeting other people. but, i am a little afraid of my husband and i don't know how to tell him.

It sounds like your husband manipulates you with his anger. I would not stay in a marriage like that. If you are afraid of your husband, you have a reason, listen to your woman's intuition. Be very careful, Nina. Please watch out for yourself. Some men turn very violent when they catch on that their wife is leaving/wants to leave.

Originally Posted by simplynina

i am so seriously thinking of divorce. i don't even know why i was even trying to make it work.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind about leaving, and I happen to agree with you. Do you have a way out? If not, lay down the tracks and start building a life of your own so that you can find your way out. I hope that everything works out for you!

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by Tybee Swing

Shelly, I agree with you on this, and it goes both ways. Men also gain weight, get sloppy around the house, wear the grungy sweats. I agree with you that it's important to care about ourselves and keep on doing the best we can with what we've got - and be appealing to our mates.

About women not being as sexual....in a lot of cases, men can help with this by doing some very simple things. Men stop "courting" their wives because they've already got her, but they don't understand...it's not for pursuit, only. Many men will stop (or cut back a lot) on doing the things that she wants on a daily basis in a relationship. When they're in pursuit of a woman, they give her a lot of verbal appreciation, take her nice places, do special things for her (the little things, too), wanting to please her. In a lot of ways, that's why women stop wanting sex so much - he seems to have gotten lazy and doesn't apppear to care. It's a two-way street. He needs to keep showing her in all the loving, romantic ways that he wants her, in order for her to feel loved/wanted and in turn, turned on. Many men really don't get how important this is to most women.

It's so very simple. If men are having this problem of getting less sex, I'd advise them to think back to the times in their relationship when the sex was hot. Now, remember what he was specifically doing for their relationship during this time. Was he a more interesting conversationalist? Did they go out more? Did he dress better, look better, smell better? Behave better? Did he take more time with sex & foreplay and was a more attentive lover? If so, she certainly has noticed the differences, and may be secretly very dissappointed that the man she thought she married somehow vanished, and left this less sexy version in his place!

If anyone (male or female) wants to go back to a better time in their relationship, they need to look at how they've changed, for starters.

Absolutely, you are absolutely right and I should have made this more clear. It goes both ways, you are 100% dead on correct.

[2chase3]

Sometimes we want to believe those we love.But know this luv, What you have just expressed is straight up lieing decietfulness along with playing with your emotions and useing swinging as a crutch to further his own personal pleasures..alone.
Dont know how you feel about it but to me thats just plain cheating.
How to find the truth for yourself? simple play the game and ask for her number so you can discuss a threesome further. I would love to see how he would crawfish out of that one,
sorry darling i feel there is more to the story than your aware of.
Btw. just out of curiosity was the masterbation picks taken in the Big Rig lol? I dont know why i find that mental image so funny.

[cubnamy1995]

Whew!

Back to the OP, I wanted to be another married male to comment.

I cheated once, and even it was due to miscommunication. I had expressed sexual interest in another woman, my wife told me to go for it on the condition she was a participant, and when the time came I acted WITHOUT her being present. She was devasated, and we came close to divorce over the whole thing. We did get through it, but I vowed never again to say or do anything that would even give the appearance of wrongdoing. I would live my life transparently so that she would never again call my actions into question. That was 7 years ago, and we are happier now than we have ever been, swinging and all.

My point is, if it were a swinging thing, then he would be more concerned with your feelings, and not put himself in the situation. But it isn't a swinging thing. It's an affair. Whether or not they have had sex is immaterial to the point. He has a relationship with a woman other than you that he has been dishonest about. I'm always sad to hear about a divorce, but sweetheart, that may be for the best. Please take the high road. Even if his actions started the whole thing, your actions of starting an affair can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Without getting a whole other topic started, I have noticed a tendency amongst us men to fight with the gloves off, and stoop to some pretty low tactics to win in a divorce proceeding. Resolve this relationship first, then move on and don't look back.

[ShellyM]

cubnamy,
I am very happy that you and your wife were able to work things out and have found a happy place!!