What's wrong with love?

[eubiotist]

To wax theoretical:

A psychologist by the name of Sternberg distinguishes 3 components of love: romantic attachment, psychological intimacy, and commitment. I'd add lust, at the impersonal end, and nurturance, at the "transpersonal" end.

As for polyamory versus swinging: I think that the best polyamorous love would involve *all* these components. I'd guess that a swinging relationship would probably involve lust and possibly intimacy, but wouldn't include romantic attachment, commitment, or nurturance. And that's totally OK!

[Lady Yes]

Seems I picked a contentious issue to weigh in for my first "non-introductory" post.

I've been polyamorous since before my first child was born, though I didn't have that word for it then. I remember how difficult it was to sort out sex and love and multiple partners and what to do about any of it -- but having a helluva good time just maundering through it all.

I must have slipped into the swinger's camp a few years ago when I encountered the term "polyf*ckery" and realized that for most people, multiple loves come with huge expectations, and I didn't need/want the drama that was usually attached to that.

Where I am with this now, 23 years later, finds me somewhat in agreement with Miss Piggy -- sex and love aren't mutually exclusive, but don't have to occur in order to enjoy either. What gets in the way of sharing the best about ourselves with others, every time, is "expectation," and I have found this is true regardless of how one identifies oneself. Straight, gay, poly, vanilla, swingers -- expectation is the silent participant and spoiler in every encounter.

My answer was to begin the process of weaning myself away from expectations altogether, in all my relationships, most especially including my current marriage as I see clearly how harboring expectations ("realistic" and otherwise) destroyed my first marriage. What I have discovered is that this has allowed me to love freely, without worrying about whether I'm loved in return or the bennies that are "expected" to come with that.

Was this difficult? Sure it was, and still is -- but so was deciding to practice a sexual lifestyle outside the monogamous "norm" in this culture. If you've ever done one difficult thing in your life, you find it's easier to do others, when you just gotta.

Thanks to all of you who post so thoughtfully and honestly about your feelings and experiences. This has truly been an educational experience.

[dozzydolly]

I appreciate Lady Yes's and Miss Piggy's posts here. "Expectations" can be really difficult things to manoeuver. We once met a great couple and things were really wonderful (we enjoyed each others company, everyone was attracted, kids got along, we enjoyed similar recreation...) but the picture the man of the of the other couple had for what our relationships was going to be was so solid that we couldn't make it work. We couldn't fulfill his expectations about time, commitment, down to how often we (me and he) would have lunch. It was a sad day for me when I realised that this relationship was going to end because of a picture he had painted in his head. That has been a while ago and I'm still pretty disheartened because it is so hard to find people whose real desires match the desires we have and then have that all work amongst everyone's lives (work, kids, homes, etc.). Flexibility is key.

A great book is Don Miguel Ruiz's "Mastery of Love." Here's a quote I found about it:

The Mastery of Love illuminates the fear-based assumptions that undermine love and lead to suffering and drama in our relationships. Using insightful stories to bring his message to life, Don Miguel Ruiz shows us how to heal our emotional wounds, recover the freedom and joy that are our birthright, and restore the spirit of playfulness that is vital to loving relationships.

I don't think there is anything wrong with love, it is what I look for. Loving people brings incredible energy, vitality and diversity to my life. I'm frustrated about the bad energy or drama that pops up so easily (in theory it seems so easy). As always, I'm looking for the balance.

[lovinher]

Nothing wrong with love if that is what your in it for. But from what I've picked up during my short time here, most "swingers" are not. Why is it that swingers seem to have no problem with people in the poly lifstyle, but many of those in the poly lifestyle seem to think people in it for sex's sake only must have some problems or issues? As if they are more enlightened than those of us that are just plain old everyday swingers.

Throughout this site I have read things from people advocating polymory like...
Must have issues of trust.
Heart not big enough.
lack of self confidence in yourself.
Lack of confidence in your relationship.
etc.

Well guess what! I am hard wired to love my my wife. I am not looking for an emotional bond or another soul mate. Sure, I would need some type of attraction to a woman I'm going to play with but thats it, period.

Let's turn it around. Just maybe those who feel they must love the persom thay are playing with, or those that are in love with more than their SO have problems their primary relationship, especially those that actively seek out another partner or "soulmate". I do not believe this is true in the majority of cases, just trying to give an example. BUT, I'm sure it does happen.

Bottom line is that I love my wife. I do not need to love someone to fuck them and that does not mean there is something wrong with me for feeling that way. Those of you in poly lifestyle...great if works for you. Just a little too much preaching from some of you.

[dozzydolly]

I think that part of this discussion is confused by differences in the personal definitions of "love." Some people use this word often and others don't. I grew up in a home where we told each other we loved each other every day. Not surprisingly, I use the word often and feel love for A LOT of people in my life. On the other hand, I have friends who use this word differently and use it very sparingly. I'm open to feeling love for others but the love I feel for my husband and kids is on a scale that isn't comparable to the other people I love in my life.

Poly vs. Swinger - The finger pointing that goes on from one group towards the other has always surprised me. Unfortunately, it seems to flow in both directions (from poly to swinger and back). When fingers get pointed, I believe it is just from misunderstanding each other.

[Lady Yes]

Originally Posted by dozzydolly

Poly vs. Swinger - The finger pointing that goes on from one group towards the other has always surprised me. Unfortunately, it seems to flow in both directions (from poly to swinger and back). When fingers get pointed, I believe it is just from misunderstanding each other.

(nod) I've seen this too, dozzydolly. I'd have to agree.

As I said in another thread, there's variety in the world for a reason.

[avid]

Originally Posted by Miss_Piggy

What's wrong with love? Nothing. It's just difficult and some people realise that it's might just be easier not to go there.

Absolutely, it's difficult. It's good when someone realizes up front that poly won't work for them.

Having to prioritize emotional needs and logistical issues is often so complicated. It has happened sometimes that someone feels left out, or underappreciated. By no means would I ever say that our relationship is ALWAYS a bed of roses.

When issues arise, we have an agreement that the "wronged" party has the onus on them to say that they need something, whether it be time, attention, or simply laundry. We have committed that none of us have to read one another's minds.

Some days I want to run away to the circus, but when things are going well, and I know that these two men I love care for each other as well, I'm grateful for the depth of this relationship we're building.

All that being said, my secondary partner returned to his other home today, after being here for a week, and I'm feeling sad and a little lost. I'm sure I'll get lots of cuddles and love from my husband tonight, though!

[dozzydolly]

Hey - I need laundry!!!

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by OhioCouple

I don't think a 'fear' to feel enters in the equation. I can 'care' about our swing partners, be there if they need a shoulder to lean on, I would race out to help them if they became stranded and they called, etc. But I wouldn't share the intimate love that I have with my husband. Our relationship is built on a lot more than sex. Making love is something that encompasses our entire relationship. Having sex with someone is sex with a friendship combined. Two entirely different loves for mankind.

I agree. No man can rival the love I feel for Jay. I know people say this crap all of the time, but I only say things I mean. He is my absolute best friend, my friends laugh because when we talk on the phone we sound like 2 women lol, talking and laughing. There is no penis on this earth, or shoulder for that matter, that would rival the feelings I feel for my husband. We have created 3 human lives together, and have gone through good AND bad times together. I agree. There is love you feel for a friend, even one you make love to. BUT there is an entirely different level of love you feel for your mate, and that kind is rare and not easily put aside. I think this is why some couples are swingers, and some not. We aren't jealous because we know how we feel about each other, and know that no vagina or penis on this earth will ever replace it.

[sereneiders]

Lady_Yes, great post. And Miss_Piggy, great insight. Now we're talking!

I believe you two hit the nail here: EXPECTATIONS.

This reminds me of the saying "Rich isn't the one who have the most, but the one who needs the less". And when I read both your posts, I realized this is what fit our case.

From the very begining on our relationship we both agreed on two things we wanted to avoid for us: to press each other to fit our expectations, and to give up things we feel confortable with just to stick to the other party expectations. We discussed this thoroughly, agreeing this was the reason for the failure in our previous relationships. We developed a "theoretical model" that made sense for us, explaining those failures (from our previous relationships and from other relationship failures we witnessed).

Upon this "model", each one of us have an ideal for the way the "perfect" partner should be, which features he/she should have, which ones he/she shouldn't, and so, and this ideal would be a "shape" drawn in the wall, you compare the shape against the shadow you partner leave in the wall, and you notice where the shadow exceeds the shape edge and when it doesn't fill it. We cannot impose at once your ideal to force your partnet to fit in, at once, because you'd get kiked in the ass as the inmediate reaction, instead we develop skills on ways to subtle mold our partner into the shape... give him/her a break, push some more, and so. Your partner may feel confortable, or he/she may reach a point where he/she dislike the one he/she is being to fit the mold. This is skill is one allowing you to make your point about something while giving you the way out should the other reacts against this. For example, you make a joke about your partner clothes today... and a similar joke in two weeks; none of the jokes is serious enough to justify a reaction, but at last you partner stop using those clothes. So, we asked each other to tell us when the other was doing something like this, able to be felt as pressure but not enough to justify a reaction, and take it seriously. We did it, but now I realize what we did was to find out the middle way between what you're up to change to build the relationship, and what you're up to accept from the other's expectations. We manage to build up a pretty relaxed and confortable relationship for both of us. And I guess this was extended when we engaged in a poly relationship. We keep the expectations low, and asked for a minimal commitmet allowing all of us to feel confortable enough.