What's wrong with love?

[BradAndJanet]

Originally posted by EternallySingle
I just learned that you can order a copy of the movie "The Harrad Experiment" from http://www.videoflics.com. It stars Don Johnson and is $10.38. Maybe I'll order a copy. Its from 1973, you know, when D.J. was young.

Don Johnson? I gotta see that...

-B

[Lorrie]

Originally posted by OhioCouple
You pretty much summed it up for me, Bunny. I do care about my friends and love them to a degree, but not to the point of being "in love". For me it is impossible to love someone in the same way that I love my husband. I guess my heart just isn't big enough for more than one at a time.....

I'm in a Polyamory relationship.

You don't have to be "in love" with every single person you have sex with. But you do love them as friends. There are degrees of loving. That's why there are Primary and Secondary relationships and so on. Tantamount to having a Best Friend and then your Second Best Friend, etc.,

So no, of course it isn't about loving everyone on an equal basis.

[fun_pairTX]

Polyamory may be fine for some but not us. We have fun with people, have a lot of laughs and sex, but love? nah. Our lives are complicated enough already despite our constant efforts to simplify.

[Lorrie]

Originally posted by fun_pairTX
Our lives are complicated enough already despite our constant efforts to simplify.

Simplifying?? That's what "monogamy" is for.

[thekolonel]

Dang Lorrie, are you going to reply to every thread?

[Lorrie]

LOL! No, I'm just do some catching up....Actually, most of the threads are not for me since I'm not a swinger.

I rarely type a long post (don't have time), so I can cover a lot in a short period of time.

In about a couple of days, I'll probably rarely post.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by muffinkm

It just appeared to me, from reading many postings that swingers are afraid to feel anything

I'd rater say, this is a matter of shifting boundaries, instead of (as we use to like to think) getting rid of all the boundaries.

In Vanillaland, the couple commitment is reasured by means of monogamy (i.e., no sex with others), and love is something expeted to be there, altough not necesarily required for this reasurance.

In Swingerland, the couple understands sex has nothing to do with this reausance, so they share their sexuality with others, but they stick to the romantic archetype of love as the requrement for the reasurance, attempting to preserve some things symbolizing this archetype (for example, the phrase "I love you").

The need for reasurance remains there, just shifted away a couple of notches.

So, I believe it isn't a matter of fear to feel something, but to express those feelings in a way colliding with these symbols, because if these symbols where used beyond the original commitment, the reasurance would be threatened.

I do believe the OP question remains valid, and I disagree with Julie about what the sort of answer the OP is looking for. We define ourselves as swingers, and from the very begining, when we stepped into Swingerland, we asked ourselves the same questions.

This doesn't mean we're not up to accept and follow Swingerland laws about this (as you can discuss the validity of the death penalty laws even whenit were not allowed by the laws), nor that we're pursuing to develop emotional bonds with our casual playmates.

I believe you have the right to ask yourself those questions in Swingerland, without being deported to Polyamorland.

PS: I disagree about sex being "too mechanical" without love. It isn't, it is as fun and enjoyable as it is with love. If there is a diference, it'd be that when "with love" you may be expressing something else besides the enjoyment.

[JP51]

Having a foot in each land...poly and love are great if it works...swinging and sex for the sake of just having some old plan fun is great too... I wonder how many of us who are in the poly world went looking for it? I know we did not, and it adds something more than just having close friends...

[ShellyM]

Originally Posted by muffinkm

Golly Gee, maybe I just don't get it, but what is wrong with love? After scanning thousands of messages, it appears that actually loving the person you are having sex with (unless I do's have been exchanged) is a real no no. Amazingly you can love your spouse, your child, your dress and even your job, but feel compelled to draw the line when it comes to someone you've spent a great deal of time in extremely intimate positions. Perhaps my wife and I are a bit different we actually allow each other to emotional bond with others. Believe me sex plus love is a whole lot better than sex without feelings.

just my opinion.

Well, here is my opinion only, AGAIN. But LOVE can be a very, very confusing emotion. You LOVE your husband or wife, and you are dedicated to them. Its when the boundary with your lover is crossed I think when things get muddy....you start calling him about your problems vs. talking to your husband about them...he becomes your counselor, the shoulder you are crying on...you start meeting for lunch. LOVE for another person you make love to can really confuse you. Then you start thinking thoughts you really should not be thinking. Thats when the "what ifs" come into your mind. In my opinion, lust all you want. Even love that person as your friend. But, keep it kind of like the office.......there is a boundary that you should just not cross, no matter how close you are. Does this make any sense, hope it helps.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by ShellyM

Well, here is my opinion only, AGAIN. But LOVE can be a very, very confusing emotion.

Indeed... as swinging could be something very confusing for some people as well, however, we don't advice against swinging just because "it can be confusing", but to bring light by means of talking about whatever it takes to get rid of the confusion, aren't we?

Again, here is where I bump against what I believe is something culturally dependant on the way we think about "love" and relationships of many kinds:

Originally Posted by ShellyM

You LOVE your husband or wife, and you are dedicated to them. Its when the boundary with your lover is crossed I think when things get muddy....you start calling him about your problems vs. talking to your husband about them...

What's wrong with calling someone else about your problems? Moreover, why the "versus"? How do you fall to conclude once you call someone else about your problems it automatically would mean you stop talking to your spouse about them? What forbids you to get a SECOND opinion about something?

Or you may feel confident enough the third one have a better perspective about a particular issue and seek for his/her advice instead of your spouse one (which doesn't necesarily mean you're "hidding" the issue to your spouse), and in this case, why not? Wouldn't you seek for such an advice from someone you're NOT having sex with? If so, how it changes after adding the sex component?

Originally Posted by ShellyM

he becomes your counselor, the shoulder you are crying on...

Wait.. your "counselor"? If we talk about a pro counselor, it role is defined by the fact that he/she DOESN'T love (nor have any other feeling towards) you, because this is what would ensure some degree of objectivity. Friends aren't suitable "counselors" under this perspective. Now, if you mean just someone alble to provide SOME advice, when YOU feel it fits.... why not?

You may be seeking for advice about an issue affecting your spouse or your relationship, feel the third one knows you both enough and is able to provide an outsider viewpoint on that issue, while being confident he/she care about you, your apouse, and your relationship. Having the chance to have someone in this very particular place isn't that common, and it would be foolish to waste this resourse to help you out.

But here is what calls my attention the more... why there should be just ONE shoulder where to cry on? What's the threat you feel from having TWO shoulders oferred to you? I guess you may be afraid of take one shoulder and it could be taken as a rejection from the second one owner... but if any of the shoulders oferred is up to take something like this as a rejection, then none of them would be up to a poly relationship in the first place!

What's wrong with having several people to rely on when you have a problem? Here's where I feel there's a cultural dependence: for me, it's natural to expect you'll rely on several people instead of just on your spouse, to the point that when I imagine a relationship where both parties are supposed to rely EXCLUSIVELY on each other, I imagine a this alone would impose an stress on the relationship that, at leas for me, would be unbearable. What feels "natural" for me is to share and distribute this stress among many people you have around: friends, relatives AND your spouse, and vice versa, and all the people, including your spouse, should have the chance to take a break from your problems as well, knowing that by taking such a break he/she wouldn't be harming you nor the relationship.

So, to some extent, your entire post makes no sense for me, or at least within my culture, and not only if applied to a poly relationship, but to ANY relationship you may have with people around you.

Originally Posted by ShellyM

you start meeting for lunch.

I do, with many people. In fact, we meet for lunch with way more people than my wife in my life, beacuse of our jobs. Then, how it is supposed to affect negatively your marital relationship to do so with someone both you and your spouse have sex with, IF your spouse is aware of you two meeting for lunch?

Originally Posted by ShellyM

LOVE for another person you make love to can really confuse you.

No. I guess it may confuse YOU, it doesn't confuse ME, nor confuse my wife, and I don't see why we should suppose someone else could be confused or not because of this. Some people would, some people woundln't, the same way that just swinging (no feelings involved) would be confussing for some people, and it wouldn't be confussing for some others.

This is like advising someone curious about swinging by JUST telling "fucking around with other people can really confuse you". Ok, it's true, and it's very likely than the curious one was already aware of this. He or she may want to know WHY and HOW some people ISN'T confused about this.

Originally Posted by ShellyM

Then you start thinking thoughts you really should not be thinking.

WOW! WOW! WOW!... and again... WOW! I cannot believe I read this sentence in this forum!

We SHOULDN'T have some toughts? Why not??? Didn't we advise to TALK, TALK and TALK to people curious about swinging? Thoughts are the way you talk to yourself, so by "forbidding" some toughts we'd be advicing against talking... not even to yourself! Let's throw the dust under the carpet! And beware of meeting someone able to rock your world and make you develop feelings... not only at the swinger club, but also at work, when shopping, at the gym... anywhere, because since you forbid yourself to think about those feelings, you may not have the resourses to deal with your feelings, REALLY risking your marital relationship because of this.

And... how would you manage to avoid thinking of something? Just by thinking of what you're not supposed to think of, you're thinking of it. It's unavoidable... even for you. How you'd be supposed to be able to impose this on someone's elses toughts... like the OP, or... your husband? Do you feel reasured about your marriage just by telling "this won't happen to us, because we agreed we wont THINK about certain things"?

I am across the street about this. No matter the issue, nor the pain, my first advice will be... THINK!

And as for me, you're right... I had those toughts, being in a poly relationship made me think of certain things, made me re-evaluate my values and my marital relationship... just to UNDERSTAND, again, over and over, why I WANT to be with my wife, why I treasure my relationship with her, beyond what may be happening with my relationship with other people. And if feel this is a way more sound reasurance than the one I had before engaging in a poly relationship... wich was more sound than the one I had before even swinging, because by them, it was all theoretical, and I had the chance to PROOF those theories.

Originally Posted by ShellyM

Thats when the "what ifs" come into your mind. In my opinion, lust all you want.

Yep, you ask yourself "what if"... you do it all the time, you don't need to be in a poly relationship, nor even to swing to ask yourself "what if". The only diference is how much of the answer for the "what if" comes from your experience, and how much comes just for your fantasies and expectations.

The "what if" is unavoidable, we ask this all the time, about every decision we have to take in our life, and what makes the diference is the grounds you have to answer the question.

IMO, the only motivation you have to avoid the "what if" about this matter is fear for one experience able to challenge your current fantasies and expectations. And I am not against this, because we also do this to protect ourselves every day.... but this isn't advisable as a way to "solve" the problem.

Originally Posted by ShellyM

Even love that person as your friend. But, keep it kind of like the office.......there is a boundary that you should just not cross, no matter how close you are. Does this make any sense, hope it helps.

I guess YOU shouldn't cross this boundary, so far it seems for you it'd be a wise and healthy decision. As for others, I believe it is required to warn about the risks involved when crossing this boundary, to provide information as for them to be able to choose to do it or not (the same way we do if they were thinking of crossing the boundary to swinging)... and also it's important to tell appart what we know because of our experience, from what we conclude from related experiences or third one's experiences, and from our fears.

[Amanda69]

Sex is primarily a biological process, hardwired into humans to ensure the continuation of the species and some bright spark thought to include a whole lot of pleasure in the process.

Love is an emotional bond and connection to a partner, child, family member, good friend etc. We love in many different ways and at many different levels.

My heart is huge and it contains love for many different people. It does not however have space for me loving other sexual partners. Why? Because I am not there for an emotional connection, though they may also become friends. I am there because of a basic biological urge and I love the feeling. I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex. Who acknowledge that you can be sexually attracted to one person and still be very deeply in love with your partner.

Hey this is the way it works for us...hence the choice of swinging over polymory.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Amanda69

Sex is primarily a biological process, hardwired into humans to ensure the continuation of the species and some bright spark thought to include a whole lot of pleasure in the process.

Allow me to disagree here. What's hardwired in any species to produce a behavior is called instinct. The human behavior set appart from any other animal behavior by the ways other artifacts, like culture, overrides our instincts. The whole "catholic priest" concept, i.e. someone choosing not to have sex, wouldn't be possible if we were being ruled by our instincts: the guy would simply try to fuck the first lady delivering pherormones in his path.

And as far as I know, the only animal who gets pleasure in the form of an orgasm is the human being, perhaps as a reward after we overrided our instincts.

So, I agree, sex is a bilogical process. But sexuality isn't, it have to do with choices and psichology, something that only applies to human beings. We are so appart from "sex", that it is pointless tro try to explain our sexual behavior by means of biology alone.

Originally Posted by Amanda69

Love is an emotional bond and connection to a partner, child, family member, good friend etc. We love in many different ways and at many different levels.

My heart is huge and it contains love for many different people. It does not however have space for me loving other sexual partners. Why? Because I am not there for an emotional connection, though they may also become friends. I am there because of a basic biological urge and I love the feeling. I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex. Who acknowledge that you can be sexually attracted to one person and still be very deeply in love with your partner.

Wait! Stop putting words in our mouths!!!! LISTEN what we say here. What makes you believe we don't recongize a difference between love an sex????

Your statement is really off grounds here, it almost lead to conclude poly-friendly people is "risky" in the swinging community, much the same way some vanilla people claims swingers are "risky" inside the vanilla community.

I DO know the difference. I do swing without requesting love from any partner. I love my partner the most, and we CHOOSE to allow ourseves to develop feelings with other consenting adults who are up to do the same.

Do you try to fuck every couple friend of you that put a step into your home, because you're swinger? I am sure you don't, and that such a claim would be offensive for you, because the claimer would be saying you're DISRESPECTFULL to everyone around you, that you lack the most basic social skills, and that you're up to do whatever it takes to fulfill your lust. Am I wrong?

So, how it come that you confuse our ideas so badly, to the point of being able to claim we don't recognize such a difference between sex and love?

Originally Posted by Amanda69

Hey this is the way it works for us...hence the choice of swinging over polymory.

I agree, and I guess no one challenge this. The question as stated by the OP is, indeed, provoking, but I guess the purpose is to invite us to dig more deeper in the whole "love" subject.

I understand people saying "let's face it, this would bring some complexities to our life we're not wanting to face", and it's a valid answer (as it is "swinging would... (put the same words here)"), but it doesn't answer the OP question of what's so challenging about loving a sexual partner who isn't your spouse.

[Amanda69]

Wait! Stop putting words in our mouths!!!! LISTEN what we say here. What makes you believe we don't recongize a difference between love an sex????

I don't and I didn't...I simply chose to put down what I felt for me and for us in our relationship.

So, how it come that you confuse our ideas so badly, to the point of being able to claim we don't recognize such a difference between sex and love?

Again I don't and I didn't I simply said how I see it and how it works for me. I also state that this is the type of sexual partners we look for and often find. I haven't actually met anyone in a poly relationship in all my years in swinging so I can't speak for them...only for my own experiences.

but it doesn't answer the OP question of what's so challenging about loving a sexual partner who isn't your spouse.

It isn't challenging it simply isn't something I am interested in doing. I love my spouse and the type of love I have for him is reserved in my heart and mind only for him. He feels the same way...making us infinitely compatible. Any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way but for me they aren't the same.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Amanda69

It isn't challenging it simply isn't something I am interested in doing. I love my spouse and the type of love I have for him is reserved in my heart and mind only for him. He feels the same way...making us infinitely compatible. Any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way but for me they aren't the same.

Well, I agree with you about this, too. If you take a look, most poly relationship makes a difference by talking about "primaries" and "secondaries". Two couples who engage in a poly relationship would admit the original couples take their partners as "primaries" and the other couple parties as "secondaries", and vice versa, which is a (perhaps a little technical) way to say they love their spouses is "bigger" than the love for the othres, that they know the compatibility among them hadrly would be matched by the compatibility they have with the "secondaries". Then they would wholly agree with you, by saying "any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way, but for me they aren't the same".

Some people reading you could even say "well... she's poly-friendly but she doesn't want to admit it". In any case, I believe we're missing something here that makes the difference, and it is the commitments we're up to take with the people around us we have affection for, in other words, what are you up to give up to honor those feelings, and here, we all agree, you're not supposed, nor asked, to give up anything from your pre-existent commitment inside your marriage.

As I see this, we trend to tie up the word "love" with this commitment, and we dislike to use this word when refering to those affection we feel for people we don't want to commit with (at least at in important degree). However, as we can tell appart sex from love, I believe we also can tell appart love from commitments, admiting we can love (or affection to suit your taste) WITHOUT commiting (which in practice, it hardly would happen because we use to honor our feelings while we CAN), or finding a degree of commitment that provide some safety to the relationship but still is confortable for everyone involved.

It happens for many swingers to find another couple they feel confortable with, they develop a friendship besides having sex, thus with a high degree of intimacy, they make them part of their lifes, and the relationship works out, at least for a significative period of time (let say, several months). The relationship inherits a commmitment from the "friendship" concept, i.e., to the same extent you're commited with any vanilla friend... and well, IMO, this isn't too far from a polyamorous relationship, at least for me, I don't see where's the difference. The only one I can recognize comes from the fact that all the involved people would deny they have a polyamorous relationship, and from the risk of exposure any of them could have if daring to use the word "love" to express their feelings towards the other couple parties (and I believe this have to do with the way the word "love" reminds us of the commitments).

In the other hand, I've seen in this forum people using the word love when talking about their feelings with swinger partners in a relationship like the former one, just to be automatically outcasted by many other swingers who, somehow, feels threatened by the whole idea of "mixing up sex with love this way".

And this is what upset me from your post. In the context of THIS discussion you said: "I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex", implying there are other adults who doesn't recognize it, which in fact, it is true... BUT this is ambiguous. You may mean the vanilla perspective, where people doesn't make this difference INSIDE their marriages, and you may mean poly/poly-friendly people who may be (misstakenly) seen as people chosing to AVOID making this difference INSIDE AND OUTSIDE their marriages. From the thread context, it's reasonable to assume the second meaning from your words.

The fact is, we're poly-friendly and we do make this difference. Moreover, we deprive the word "love" from the commitment implications, ultimatelly, it describes a feeling that grows and is beingd feed as you stick to the commitments. So we have three different things in our language: sex, love, and commitment, instead of just two: sex and love.

I'd rephrase the OP original question as "why it is so hard to dissect the word love into the affective feelings and the commitments?". And now, the answer "well, we choose NOT to dissect it" doesn't seems to provide much of an insight.

[Miss_Piggy]

I apologise if I'm saying things that repeat some of the above. My command of the English language has been failing me recently and I'm having trouble fully understanding some of the longer posts above. (English is my first language... I'm just not great with it these days.)

That being said, I was going to talk about this love and commitment issue.
That's what I see as being more difficult about love (compared to just sex). I don't know how to separate love and commitment. People don't often just love freely without any expectations of anything in return. We require certain things out of the ones we love. Things like time, energy, diplays of affection... all sorts of things.
Now, it's all fine and good to say that you can love a trillion people at the same time. I think you can love everyone and everything and everything would be nice and happy. But the type of love that we engage in in romantic relationships carries those expectations. And those things are difficult in a one on one relationship. But if you're trying to satisfy those needs in multiple relationships... well! that's where I think things start to get really difficult. It's just impossible to avoid having what one partner needs from you conflicting with what another partner needs from you every once in a while.
THEN - you get into the issue of who takes priority... and is there such a thing as one relationship being more valuable than another? How can you measure one love against another?
Well, I think it's all just incredibly difficult.
What's wrong with love? Nothing. It's just difficult and some people realise that it's might just be easier not to go there. (For the record, I didn't personally come to that realisation)