Trying to work it all out

[VanHlebar]

So this weekend the crap hit the fan if you will. I have posted much lately as life for MrsVan and I just hasn't been focused on lifestyle things at all. Many may remember a few posts about a couple that we have known for a couple of years that have turned from a standard vanilla couple to playing fun naked games with a bunch of touchy feely stuff as well.

Well about 18mos or so ago, I felt a shift in my emotions towards the other wife, first what I thought may have been just a strong infatuation, then just a deeper connection than typical friends. Well after many months of soul searching and on again off again discussions with MrsVan I have finally come to terms with how I feel. In addition to that it has been made aware to the other couple. She has also confessed feelings for me but I am not sure to what depth.

We are now at the early stages of attempting to figure this all out. MrsVan feels like she is now sharing my love and her best friend, as that is who I have fallen for. While everyone knows deep down that neither of us are going to run off, this is still a lot for us all to deal with. I am struggling to put into terms for MrsVan exactly how I feel, and I am struggling with a way to explain that I do not love her any less. Nor is there anything missing in our relationship. I truely did not seek this out, at first I was confused about my feelings as well. It has happened and now as a group we are attempting to work it out. Any help is welcome. While MrsVan and I may be experienced swingers we are not experienced with poly situations AND our friends have been nothing but a traditional couple for all the years they have been together.

Just looking for some helpful advice....

-Van

[couplers]

Hi, this is Petra. As someone in a poly situation, I can understand the conflicted emotions you are feeling; I hope it all works out. But don't beat yourself too much - remember that none of us can control who we have sexual urges for, become infatuated with, or fall in love with.


I have often been the odd person out on this board when it comes to advice in these situations, so take my perspective as the exception and not the norm. But I suggest you don't run from your feelings, your situation, rather embrace it. It may not be sex that is the primary force behind this, it may not be love - it could be puppy love, a mutual admiration thing, it doesn't matter. You have whatever feelings and dedication for your wife, regardless of your feelings for another. And if the love for your wife is not there, staying away from the other person won't change that.


I know it is a lot to ask, but the best thing would be for your wife and the other husband to let this take its course, whether it is a non-sexual fling for 6 months or a lasting, committed loving and sexual relationship. If they can see this as an opportunity to multiply happiness rather than dividing it, they too will find a joy in what results. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't work out this way because people are pounded by society on how to act when someone is attracted to their partner. Folks in this place, on this board, have gotten over the sexual aspect of sharing, but are always drawing lines, have their rules.


Take care.

[couplers]

Me again. Thinking about this a little more, you must assume that the other people involved will react as most people do, so you need to make them feel that your feelings are not a threat in any way. You spoke with your wife and reassured her, now make it clear to the other husband in itty bitty words and deeds that you admire his wife, but you are not going to "steal" her away. Spend time with her, yes, and make her happy, but the primary thought for you should be what's running through his mind and what will make him happy. Your goal should be to make him glad that you, wonderful guy that you are, find his wife attractive, you do good things for her, genuinely care, and will look out for her. It will also be much easier with your wife in the know and at your side each step of the way.


This assumes of course that you have your poly thoughts in order and are not feeling proprietary toward her.


PS - Sorry if it appears I'm obsessing about your situation and writing in the middle of the night. It's just that I/we went through the same things early on, plus right now I'm in europe (it's daytime) alone without my partners so I'm reading about sex instead of having it.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by couplers

I have often been the odd person out on this board when it comes to advice in these situations, so take my perspective as the exception and not the norm.

First, directly to Petra: WHAT? I for one consider you a treasured asset to this board. You have very refreshing views, and it is wonderful to read your posts. I see your pseudonym and I always read what you have to say. Don't sell yourself so short!

@Van: You don't yet have the tools to manage this. But, Petra has given you some excellent advice. Take it to heart.

This will take considerable time and devotion to work everything out. There will be no absolute right or wrong answers; just lots of gray. It's important to focus not on what society expects, but on how the four of you are working together, irrespective to the social rules that frequently get thrown at situations like this. Those tools from swinging should help you immeasurably in this regard. Don't assume something is bad just because it's different.

There are complex relationships developing here. Balancing them will take lots of effort, just as any vanilla marriage does. Openness, honesty, forthrightness will all serve you well...for all four of you. This is all new to all of you. Go slowly.

You note that your love for MrsVan is no less. Yet, you're struggling with a way to communicate that. Part of the problem may be preconceptions of how love is supposed to be. It's hard to break the shackles of our upbringing; one love, one spouse, one life, one marriage. But, such constructs are on the face of it laughable.

Do you love your wife any less because you love other members of your family? Of course not. "But that's a different kind of love!" some might say. So, your heart and soul have but one compartment available for the kind of love you devote to your spouse? Impossible for there to be anyone else in there? One size fits just one at a time? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of us have past relationships to people whom we loved very deeply. You don't just cast that aside and stop feeling for those people. Some of that love remains. You don't love your wife less for the past people whom you had close relationships with.

Your first hurdle here is learning, understanding and communicating the depth of love you have for your wife. That's irrespective of anyone else. Then, further to that learning how you...not anyone else in polyamory, but YOU...integrate having romantic love for another person in addition to your wife. You have to learn what that means for you. That's just the beginning.

Not every couple can successfully navigate these waters. There are dangers to be sure, but the rewards can also be immense. There's plenty of learning curves here; go slow.

There are plenty of polyamory resources out there. Those resources can give you a fantastic framework on which to add the 'meat' of your own experience, feelings, understanding, and thought. I know it helped me tremendously many years ago when I became part of a triad for a time.

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by couplers

I know it is a lot to ask, but the best thing would be for your wife and the other husband to let this take its course, whether it is a non-sexual fling for 6 months or a lasting, committed loving and sexual relationship.

Well this is NOT going to happen. The other husband, while he says he is "ok" has already said that we are not to have anymore unsupervised visits. Now I am not sure if this is a permanent situation or something that "might" change again in the future once we all figure out how this is going to workout. I have no choice but to accept this at this moment in time.

Originally Posted by couplers

PS - Sorry if it appears I'm obsessing about your situation and writing in the middle of the night. It's just that I/we went through the same things early on, plus right now I'm in europe (it's daytime) alone without my partners so I'm reading about sex instead of having it.

You aren't obsessing over my post, you are offer up advice and your opinion, both of which I clearly came looking for or I would not have posted my situation on a public board. I have been around here long enough to know and respect most of the members. I come here for advice because I know that I will get both the good AND the bad, if you will. I won't hear only what people think I want to hear and many times folks offer up a different point of view that I haven't thought of yet. So no worries on multiple posts in the middle of my night.

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

You note that your love for MrsVan is no less. Yet, you're struggling with a way to communicate that. Part of the problem may be preconceptions of how love is supposed to be. It's hard to break the shackles of our upbringing; one love, one spouse, one life, one marriage. But, such constructs are on the face of it laughable.

Do you love your wife any less because you love other members of your family? Of course not. "But that's a different kind of love!" some might say. So, your heart and soul have but one compartment available for the kind of love you devote to your spouse? Impossible for there to be anyone else in there? One size fits just one at a time? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of us have past relationships to people whom we loved very deeply. You don't just cast that aside and stop feeling for those people. Some of that love remains. You don't love your wife less for the past people whom you had close relationships with.

Ah my friend, see this is the crux of it all. I have used these very same examples while talking to MrsVan about this just recently, and at the moment, she still doesn't see it this way. I understand where she is coming from, you don't get to that view over night. I have had an 18mos jump start on all this and am 18mos of thinking, pondering and self evaluating, ahead of the rest of the group. I have been dealing with this LONG before anyone knew anything about it and I have spent a lot of time at a different board, multiple websites and even reading a book to help me understand what is going on. So I can't expect what took me this long to "sort of figure out", for the rest of the group to catch up in a weekend.

We all have a starting point to work from and that is that nobody wants to lose the bond and friendship that we have built over the past couple of years. This other couple are very wise and are not the typical vanilla couple. While I am not sure how this is going to fall out, neither of them are all that concerned with what others think. We have had that talk a number of times as a group, as most of their neighborhood think we are all one large happy unit as it is. We have had a number of discussions about people talking about us and as many on this board have wondered over the years, why can't folks just mind their own business? If it works for some and not others, so be it.

Anyways I am beginning to ramble.... I am not convinced that the other husband is really "ok" with all of this, and to be honest how could he be? I know what I felt like trying to get up the courage to discuss this with MrsVan, and his wife had all but a day to do it in. He and I where supposed to be getting together this weekend, prior to all this coming out, now I am not sure if we still are. I have sent him a text to see if we are still golfing, but he has yet to respond. This is not unusual with him, but since he has pretty much ignored my other texts that have to deal with the situation, it has made me skeptical of his actual "acceptance".

MrsVan and the wife are meeting for dinner tomorrow night to discuss things. It has been difficult because the other wife has company in from out of town all week long (yea can you say terrible timing), and they have not been able to get together. I am actually a bit nervous about them getting together, why I don't know. They have done dinner more times together than I can count over the years, but for some reason this one is different. I worry about them both and I know there are going to be a ton of tears at dinner. I do know that they both love each other very much and this will be a HUGE step in setting things right again between them.

As for me, well I really need to finish my talk with the other wife, but that is difficult to do now. I can't meet her alone to do this, text messaging is getting so tough at this point and email isn't much better. I can't pick up the phone and call her because of the company that is in town until this weekend. So I guess I am stuck, waiting for the weekend and even then, her husband will be home and with everything going on, it would seem very wrong to take time away from their healing process so that her and I could talk.

-Van

[slevin]

Can you explain exactly how this came out once you figured out your own feelings? Did you bring this up with the other woman? Did she express feelings towards you prior to you bringing it up? Did you bring this up with them both there?

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by slevin

Can you explain exactly how this came out once you figured out your own feelings? Did you bring this up with the other woman? Did she express feelings towards you prior to you bringing it up? Did you bring this up with them both there?

Sure can. I started to realize something was "different" probably around the beginning of last year. Can't really give a specific time frame but it was around there, before we where supposed to leave for a vacation with them. Once I figured this out, I talked to MrsVan to let her know about my feelings because there was a very strong possibility that on this vacation we where all going to finally get a chance to play. Turns out we where not able to play for nature's reasons and from that point on play stuff has been pretty much shut off.

I have been going back and forth with what my true emotions have been. At first I said I loved her, then after seeing MrsVan's response I back tracked and said maybe it is just a "love" stronger than a normal friend but not romantic. Then I tried to ignore them hoping they would go away, like that was really going to work.

It all came out with the other wife because I made a joke last week while we where all out to dinner that really really hurt her and upset her. I felt terrible about this and her response to my joke really made me think that there was something else going on. When her and I talked the next day, she also indicated that my response of being very upset and me saying I had learned a few things from the joke incident caused her to think that maybe I had feelings. She pressured me a lot the next day via text message to explain things and at one point she said, look I am pretty sure that I know what you are going to say, but I need to hear you actually say it. It was at this point that I just said it. Text messaging was NOT the way I wanted to handle this at all. MrsVan previously had said that I was not to say anything to this couple about my feelings as she was deathly afraid to lose her best friend. I haven't even seen the other wife or husband face to face yet since this all has happened. I get that honor tonight at volleyball.

-Van

[realcplub2]

Van, I am glad you read and quoted bbarnsworth, I was very close to what I was going to say.. great minds and all that, lol

We have a great capability to have love and compassionate feelings for multiple people in our lives, and even those that aren’t in them anymore. Tell me honestly you haven't thought of a past love at least once this year, someone you may not have seen in a decade or so. It happens, and again, its part of the human condition

The key to all of this, is your wife. We are on a board where we advocate a different lifestyle and attempt to differentiate between love and sex, and sometimes those lines become blurred. Its the one point that the vaniulla media seizes on, think back to the NGC show Taboo, about swinging, of course they found people who have had negative expereinces, and had relationship and marriages break up, because there wasnt a frank discussion about what had developed.

Van, I wouldnt expect your wife to understand this right off the bat, the fact that this has been a slow process over 18 months, is part of the problem. The other being, because you were trying to deal with what you were feeling by yourself, without communication that to her, is the another part. I doubt that if you had told her about this in the first 6 months it would have been received any better, but, by keeping this to yourself as you tried to work thru it, She may have even more cause for resentment.

The largest part of what you need to communicate, and SHOW her is that these feelings do not diminish how you feel about her. and explain to her that these feeling for the other wife do not REPLACE how you care for her.

The other thing that hasnt been talked about a whole lot is what the other husband has to say about all of this? Where is he at in this? Is he in the LOOP? or still in the dark?

[bbarnsworth]

I don't think texting and e-mailing is the way to handle this. Such tools provide convenient means to hide behind a screen, but it's fraught with all manner of problems. I'd avoid using those communication methods for sensitive topics like this.

Many of us have, on contact with a chaotic situation, a great desire to resolve a situation to a settled end. If we could find an answer right now, we'd feel a lot better about it all and be able to move forward. Oh to be so lucky. Life progresses on its own time, and you have little in the way of control over it. I'm sensing in some of your expressed thoughts some anxiousness and impatience with the resolution of this.

Calm. Relax your soul. Breathe deeply.

You've had 18 months to work on this. The other couple, zero.

My wife and I have a rule, though not a 'play' rule. We're both free to have sex with others as much and as often as we like with a given play mate given a few predicates. One of those is that we are not falling in love with our play partners, and our play partners are not falling in love with us. If that happens, we are to quit playing with them cold turkey. No more. There's a reasonable chance we'd break contact too, but that's not a rule.

If we were the other couple, we'd break off playing with you. I know, you're not really playing with them, but what I'm getting at is this; they may be in a response mode along the lines of "Oh crap! Van is falling in love with one of us! We feel strongly for them as friends, and have a close bond, and don't want to end the friendship. But...damn! How in hell do we handle this?"

[Alura]

I'm just a hick Okie, Van, and I can't say I've had any experience with Polyamory, but it seems to me that you have two choices ... the four of you can agree to swap partners and experience that which you've long wondered about, or you can continue living as friends as before, pushing this phase under the table to never mention again. The positive part seems to be that nobody is willing to sacrifice the marriages or the friendship.

But the decision needs to be made by all four... together ... openly ... by talking out fears and feelings. Without that, yours will be less than the friendship y'all once had. ...and by the way, there's no reason that the four can't research polyamory together just like a couple might investigate swinging. The decision doesn't have to be made yesterday.

Good Luck!

Alura

[gatorvol64]

Hey there!

I won't say much here but, don't be discouraged yet. This takes time and major communication.

It's a matter of changing a mindset. We are taught that you love one person and, if you really do love that person, you can not possibly love someone else as well. We are taught we only have a certain amount of romantic love to give and finding you love someone new must mean you love the original less.

You are ahead of the others in your progress to get past this mindset. Poly is just like swinging in that it's best to go at the pace of the slowest.

Hang in there. Both you and MrsVan.

Vol

[couplers]

This is one of the most interesting posts here because it gets to the heart of the contradictions we all have, how we deal with them, and how we make the most of our lives as humans. Our fundamental nature is to want a stable marriage, while having the freedom to become involved in other relationships. The shared idea on this Board is that overcoming feelings of sexual exclusiveness leads to great joy. Some stuggle to open up sexually, while others give to their spouse and receive sexual freedom easily but all seem to worry about emotional involvement. Most people here seem to fear emotional involvement and deal with it by having "just sex" with people they hardly know or devising any number of rules. I have no problem with that, just the way I have no problem with monogamy. But it seems to me that overcoming the hurdle of emotional exclusiveness can be just as rewarding as overcoming sexual exclusiveness. No doubt it is difficult. To watch one's spouse suddenly find fascination/infatuation in a new relationship can be difficult. So is doing the laundry, taking out the trash and doing all those other things we do for our spouse. However, it can also be, just like the sexual hotness of sharing, a real joy. And the fact is that after that infatuation is over there is more love than ever between the couple. Even the cheaters universally despised here usually don't want to end the marriage, the basic relationship is too important and too valuable.


Even though I said that I feel like an outsider here because I do not swing in the usual sense (it's me and my two boys), this place has allowed me to see our arrangements as an achievement, not a deviency. There is a shared joy here about what we have been able to accomplish by understanding ourselves, and much good advice.


After conquering the reality of our sexual and emotional nonmonogamy, the final reality (one I haven't yet faced) is that it is not in our nature as humans to mate for life. While everything seems so grand now, I worry to some degree every day that it will fall apart at some point. Until them, I treasure what my sister said to me, "Do you know how fuckin' lucky you are, Petunia?" For now that's enough and makes work at keeping my "family" happy.


So Mr. Van even if you two never touch, enjoy the high of your new relationship while working to keep the others happy.

[The Fuse]

Hi Van, and Mrs. Van.

There is obviously a lot of longing and anxiety here. I don't know you, but I am really sorry that any of you are experiencing these types of feelings. It seems like love should bring warmth and happiness. Instead sometimes it brings feelings of fear and painful longing.

That being said, I guess at a time like this when your head is buzzing and you can't believe you all have to just be in this holding pattern, it's important to start from the things that are kind of immovable. For one, since your friends have company it is up to the other lady to find any time to really communicate with you. If she doesn't, there's not much you can do about it. Another thing is that whatever rules her husband lays down, you have to respect not only the letter of, but the meaning of, i.e. between the lines. The "no unsupervised visits" thing says loudly and clearly to me that he is afraid of what would happen if you were alone with his wife. Sexually or emotionally or both, he feels threatened enough that he has to be there whenever you're with her. This is not a good sign. Maybe he'll get over it, but if he doesn't then he is basically saying "she's mine and you're not going to have any part of her".

Also, Mrs. Van is struggling with this. This means that first and foremost, you have to do whatever you need to do to reassure her she is not losing you, that you are committed to her emotionally, even if not exclusively. But she has to know that she can still count on you for all the things she has in the past. That whatever you feel for someone else, it doesn't interfere with the love and devotion you feel for her. This is tough for most people to figure out and to believe.

You've had a while to get your head around the idea of loving more than one, and how that can enrich everyone's life as opposed to taking away from it. I can't really help with this, as these are ideas I was imbued with as a teenager by reading a bunch of books by Robert A. Heinlein (Time Enough for Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, Number of the Beast and more). It has always seemed natural for me. The key is that all the primaries know they are still primary, that 20, 30, 40 years from now, their love will still love them regardless of this other relationship. You'll still take care of her when she gets sick. You'll still hold her when life deals her a blow. You'll still BE there. This mindset is so hard for people to get. And truthfully, not everyone is built that way. If they come around, it will take time.

I really hope that your relationships all navigate these waters. It is quite possible, with lots of nurturing, but only if everyone is accepting of what is happening and wants happiness for all, in whatever form that happens. I also hope that you and the other three all get to air your feelings with honest and positive-attitude discussions.

Finally, I know it's hard to wait. That's really tough to handle when all you want to do is deal with this important thing in your life. The only thing I can say is to try to think about how things might be six months from now, and how to best deliberately get there. Letting something happen too quickly would probably not help.

I hope you keep coming back and posting.

Originally Posted by couplers

So Mr. Van even if you two never touch, enjoy the high of your new relationship while working to keep the others happy.

Couplers,

I have to say that I have tried to stay out of this post because I am giving MrVan a chance to have a place to get some advise to help us deal with what we are going through. However, I have to say that your comments at times make me sick to my stomach to hear you tell my husband to "run with his feelings, emotions" or to "enjoy the high". We are NOT in a poly relationship and never will be in a poly relationship. I have nothing against a poly relationship and know other that have become friends to us that are in a poly relationship but for those that this works for I am happy for you but this is not what I want.

I know we all have our own opinions and I do not disagree. But I have a hard time reading the posts on here and seeing each time that you are basically telling MrVan (my husband) to run with what he is feeling. This situation for me has been extremely painful for me, confusing and making me feel at a loss. I look here hoping to find something to take with me as I try to regain what is lost between my husband and I but I just cannot get past the advise you offer.

Please know that I mean no disrespect, it is just while we are dealing with a situation that none of us expected I do not think that telling him to run with his emotions, etc is helping us.

MrsVan

[Alura]

I had the impression, Mrs. Van, that nobody is willing to "run with his/her feelings." Rather, that it had been decided to not risk either of the marriages.

That doesn't change that y'all have a problem that can only be solved by the four of you talking at length about the problem.

As I suggested above, there are only two choices. If any one person will not budge from "push it under the table and never mention it again" that's the way it will need to be.

Good luck to all four of you. My guess is that all of you are very good people.
Mother Earth and Father Sky will guide you as you talk it out.

Alura